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The pheonix is the scout of starcraft 2 in its current state... Except the scout was atleast good at SOMETHING (taking down carriers/bcs cost effectively).
This unit is seriously a joke, you cannot viably use this unit for any purpose what so ever at high level (and believe me, i've tried my heart out the past couple of days). It definitely has a role, and it is a fine design for a unit, its general stats just suck way to much ass at the moment to make it effective, even in the niche it's suppose to be.
I'm not going to throw out a whole bunch of stats, because they for the most part are worthless compared to real game play experiance, and anyone who has tried to counter mass muta by going mass pheonix (once again, at a decent level of play) knows what I'm talking about. They do NOT effectively counter mass muta. Cost for cost - yes, but you cant look past the fact that zerg can tech switch at any moment and instantly have the ability to mass produce whichever other unit they want, whilst your stuck with 2-3 useless stargates and x amount of phoenixs which at most can lift up units, snipe some overlords or die incredibly quickly to anything anti-air.
I really want this unit to be viable, i WANT to be able to viably fight a zerg for air control, but at the moment, dispite opening FE into stargate and CONSTANTLY pumping phoenixs, adding more stargates if i see the zerg going for muta, i still lose half the time to muta, the other half to a quick ground transition (roach+hydra, or just pure hydra).
Viable fixes: If they dont want to re-work the design of the phoenix (which imo they dont need to do, this isnt broodwar and we dont need a corsair, especially since zerg doesnt have scourge), they need to up there stats in some/any way shape or form, fairly significantly. Something like reduced build time (so you can actually build a decent amount of them without having to build 2+ stargates, which then become useless as soon as the zerg realize how much you're investing in phoenixes) and maybe increasing their armour so the muta glaive doesnt rape them (make them come out with 1 or 2 default armour). Maybe this would be enough, maybe it wouldnt be, I dont really know, but im sure any platinum zerg or protoss would agree that phoenixs are fucking laughable right now...
/rantblog after trying to include phoenixes in my build for the last 5 PvZs... Look forward to <100 post count people telling me phoenixes are infact useful atm and im wrong.
 
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seems strange how now that sc2 is out everyone suddenly is a professional game balancer.
maybe protoss isnt supposed to have amazing anti air so you have to compensate more for it because immortals and colo are so damn strong against ground?
no nevermind lets make phoenix on par with other A2A so that you can 1a your colo army into your opponent every game
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On April 20 2010 20:22 petzergling wrote:
seems strange how now that sc2 is out everyone suddenly is a professional game balancer.
maybe protoss isnt supposed to have amazing anti air so you have to compensate more for it because immortals and colo are so damn strong against ground?
no nevermind lets make phoenix on par with other A2A so that you can 1a your colo army into your opponent every game
You're right, but lets give them a unit that cant effectively do anything, thats a good idea, just to fuck with their heads a little... And the whole point of the beta is so we can help balance the game and give feedback on balance & bugs we find, so i don't know wtf the point of your first line is tbh...
and for the record, I'm not asking for a pheonix that demolishes corrupters or something liek that, i just want it to be reasonably good at countering mutalisks(outside of the vacuum of x amount worth of phoenix vs x amount worth of mutalisks)... Pretty much the ONLY thing in the game they're suppose to be good at...
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maybe if all of the other units werent so powerful that they completely crush any other races well balanced army you wouldnt have units that arent used
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I certainly agree that the Phoenix is garbage. I feel like it 'can' have a role in AA and harass in PvZ, but as you already said it's just not very effective. It's essentially useless at the moment. But then again, this would have to be counteracted somehow, either within the protoss army or the other two races, or else it would just give Protoss another quality unit without compensating elsewhere.
By the way, petzergling, bullcharging people's blogs with your own mindless rants that don't really have anything to do with what's being discussed isn't really very effective.
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On April 20 2010 20:29 petzergling wrote:
maybe if all of the other units werent so powerful that they completely crush any other races well balanced army you wouldnt have units that arent used
So you admit the phoenix sucks dicks and has no use in the game right now... Which was the entire point of my first post... That the phoenix has no real use....
I do understand the idea fwiw that protoss ground to ground is quite strong atm, and if someone is going mass collosi, you do need air to deter it, either corruptors or vikings, both which work well at quickly taking out collosi.
But... Altho im not 100% sure, i dont think giving the pheonix's extra armour, or decreasing there build time would make them strong enough to counter the corruptors or vikings effectively what so ever, especially considering 100gas is quite hefty if you're going for a collosi based army, which is alrdy gas heavy as hell, you're not really going to have enough gas to churn out the starport(150gas) & robo(100gas) & robo bay(200gas) & collosi upgrade(200gas) & collosi(200gas each) & phoenix(100gas each) to good enough effect for it to really become a big balance problem.
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I actually saw someone use them PvP against me. Speedzeals + Phoenix (To pick up immortals, and kill colossus)
It caught me by surprise... He played very well.
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On April 20 2010 20:58 TwilightStar wrote:
I actually saw someone use them PvP against me. Speedzeals + Phoenix (To pick up immortals, and kill colossus)
It caught me by surprise... He played very well.
this does work somewhat, but pretty much everything phoenix can do in pvp, voidray does a LOT better except scout. Zealot+Voidray is a solid (and works well against robo first builds) PvP build. collosi + a few stalkers rapes zealot phoenix too hard because the phoenixes are really, really slow at killing the collosi.
infact the one real decent use ive found for phoenixes IS in pvp is if you both go blind voidray builds (which is semi-common on desert oasis) and the phoenixes are really good at killing the voidrays (mainly because u can micro them out of the voidrays damage before it gets close to charging really really effectively, since they're so fast.)
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In my opinion they should either buff the Phoenix or reduce it's cost heavily.
The unit is horrible right now, it's worse then the scout in SC1 
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Calgary26003 Posts
I'm tired of reading jobbers making absolute statements based on nothing. The phoenix is good vs mutas and your thread is a joke.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 20 2010 22:11 Chill wrote:
I'm tired of reading jobbers making absolute statements based on nothing. The phoenix is good vs mutas and your thread is a joke.
True, but the Phoenix is pretty limited in use at the moment. Although anti-grav is certainly fun.
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On April 20 2010 22:11 Chill wrote:
I'm tired of reading jobbers making absolute statements based on nothing. The phoenix is good vs mutas and your thread is a joke.
Urgh, wouldnt expect this from you tbh, but whatever... I really haven't seen them used, ever, in competitive matches yet, and I'd say they're the most underused unit in the game, this is a blog, im venting my opinion on a unit in starcraft 2, has a lot of content, so what exactly makes it a joke other than the fact you think they are good against mutalisks, which is a pretty broad statement and I'd be very interested if you had a decent replay of someone countering a good zerg going for an initially muta-heavy build with them...
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Calgary26003 Posts
On April 20 2010 22:20 Ftrunkz wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 22:11 Chill wrote:
I'm tired of reading jobbers making absolute statements based on nothing. The phoenix is good vs mutas and your thread is a joke. Urgh, wouldnt expect this from you tbh, but whatever... I really haven't seen them used, ever, in competitive matches yet, and I'd say they're the most underused unit in the game, this is a blog, im venting my opinion on a unit in starcraft 2, has a lot of content, so what exactly makes it a joke...
Look. I realize everyone and their mother thinks they are David Kim and could balance this game, but it leads to them getting tunnel vision and making stupid statements and suggesting radical changes. You cite no evidence other than 'I played 5 games and the phoenix sucks.' Well, you probably used the unit wrong. I've lost huge groups of mutalisks to huge groups of phoenixes many times.
Your thread is a joke because it's subjective and uses analytical evidence. As such it's impossible to argue against. It's like me saying "LOL people say the sky is blue but for the past 5 days it's been grey in my city." How do you want anyone to get ANY value from that whatsoever?
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On April 20 2010 22:25 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 22:20 Ftrunkz wrote:On April 20 2010 22:11 Chill wrote:
I'm tired of reading jobbers making absolute statements based on nothing. The phoenix is good vs mutas and your thread is a joke. Urgh, wouldnt expect this from you tbh, but whatever... I really haven't seen them used, ever, in competitive matches yet, and I'd say they're the most underused unit in the game, this is a blog, im venting my opinion on a unit in starcraft 2, has a lot of content, so what exactly makes it a joke... Look. I realize everyone and their mother thinks they are David Kim and could balance this game, but it leads to them getting tunnel vision and making stupid statements and suggesting radical changes. You cite no evidence other than 'I played 5 games and the phoenix sucks.' Well, you probably used the unit wrong. I've lost huge groups of mutalisks to huge groups of phoenixes many times. Your thread is a joke because it's subjective and uses analytical evidence. As such it's impossible to argue against. It's like me saying "LOL people say the sky is blue but for the past 5 days it's been grey in my city." How do you want anyone to get ANY value from that whatsoever?
I said i was venting because i was pissed after the last 5 games, not that i've only used 5 games to draw a complete conclusion on it(See: "that past few days" i wrote somewhere in the op)...
Another part of the thread was to find if people are actually having the same issues, yeah it's heavily weighed in op (as i said at the bottom, i was on a rant and wanted to vent), I was genuinely interested if anyone else has found these units remotely succesful, as i said, if you have a replay in which someone used them effectively vs a large number of mutalisks, I would like to replay to see the build and how the match played out. As at the moment it seems as soon as I take air control over, he can tech switch to hydras and rape my face as I don't have the gateway number/collosi tech to deal with it, and just going stalker sentry zealot against muta-ling seems sooo much more logical then going for phoenixes that it makes them useless.
edit: I also hardly think modifying the phoenixs armour and making its build time less is a 'radical change' likely to break the current balance of the game..
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Your last post is pretty much my experience with phoenixes too (but I play mainly zerg). The protoss begins to start beating me pure muta vs pure phoenix so I just plop down a hydra den and survive a little longer and his pheonix army becomes essentially useless. Perhaps getting a combination of phoenixes + cannons +sentry works. Have just enough to defend each base with phoenixes + static defense and have an army composition of phoenixes and other units so you are more flexible.
I open phoenixes a lot in pvp. I get like 4 and they help against colossi tech and also let you snipe probes (4 phoenixes 1 hits probes) constantly.
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Pheonix's can harass the heck outta a zerg player by taking 3+ and lifting queens. It's just really annoying. During big fights, having a lot of pheonix's lifting off some units can really change the outcome too. But I agree that in Air vs. Air, pheonix's are horrible.
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Congratulation to Chill for being a pain in the butt yet again.
User was banned for this post
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On April 20 2010 22:25 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On April 20 2010 22:20 Ftrunkz wrote:On April 20 2010 22:11 Chill wrote:
I'm tired of reading jobbers making absolute statements based on nothing. The phoenix is good vs mutas and your thread is a joke. Urgh, wouldnt expect this from you tbh, but whatever... I really haven't seen them used, ever, in competitive matches yet, and I'd say they're the most underused unit in the game, this is a blog, im venting my opinion on a unit in starcraft 2, has a lot of content, so what exactly makes it a joke... I've lost huge groups of mutalisks to huge groups of phoenixes many times. Why aren't you building corruptors if he's making phoenix? Their 2 armor makes phoenix useless as it makes phoenix only deal 6 damage to them. Over 30 shots from them before a corruptor dies
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fenix are alright, zerg player here
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Watch Nony's stream, he uses Phoenixes to great effect in PvZ for harassing Overlords and taking out Queens in early-mid game.
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EPT
