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Always been a bit curious of what others think about the games Go and Chess. Im nowhere near pro in Chess or Go so dont take these speculations to serious plz. Just want to know what some much better players think bout the 2 games and as to why the game Go never really made it into the Western side of the world  and chess to eastern.(They might be bigger then i think maybe idk. But from what i know, Go is definitely more associated to the eastern side as Chess is to the western side of the world.)
As i said, im no where near pro in Chess and im even worse in Go. In my opinion, i feel as Go is a much more difficult game. Some reasons as i why i think so:
1. Officialy, Go is played on a 19x19 size board compared to Chess's 8x8 size board. This feels as the game gets much more complicated during the end of play considering you have much more pieces put on the table while in chess, you will usually have less pieces during the end of game.
2. The pieces and gameplay. In Go there are no special individual pieces, however you can place a piece anywhere on the board and they can never move(unless captured). As taking this into account, gameplay feels much more strategic and insight is much more needed.
3. Scoring. In chess there isnt any scoring. The objective is to check-mate the opponent's king. As in Go, you score points by collecting territories, areas you control. The winner is whomever controls the most territory by the end of game or by resigning from the match. As a result, the game feels a bit more complicated towards the end. Your trying to save as much territories as possible as well as trying to prevent your opponent to do the same.
Anyways, i think both games are great and i love playing them both. Id have to say ive played both games just as much as the other and Chess has always been the easiest for me.
So, what do you guys think? Take it ez, im fragile
 
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Chess has been mastered on computers for ages.
On the other hand Go computers get raped by players.
It's clear which one is the harder one.
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On April 04 2010 08:01 SuperArc wrote:
Chess has been mastered on computers for ages.
On the other hand Go computers get raped by players.
It's clear which one is the harder one.
Go?
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Go is simply awesome. Could be me simply being prejudiced, but involves so much calculation yet simple in its elegance.
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Does chess have a Hikaru no go counterpart? )
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The whole debate is extremely retarded. The case has been made for fans of both games countlessly on why their game is the superior one. Pointless.
I play go, 5k on kgs ;;.
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I'm going to say that I like Chess more.
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On April 04 2010 08:07 kefkalives wrote:
The whole debate is extremely retarded. The case has been made for fans of both games countlessly on why their game is the superior one. Pointless.
I play go, 5k on kgs ;;.
I agree ... it seems like a silly argument that leads to lots of "I'm better than you" type of pointless talk. Play both and enjoy both. It's as simple as that.
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United States24645 Posts
I think your analysis of endgame for go isn't really right... then again I'm not that good at either game. I enjoy both of them but am a skilled player of neither.
I feel like go offers a lot more freedom and creativity which is daunting for beginners (harder game to play decently at a low level?) but more interesting. Advanced study of chess seems more dry to me.
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On April 04 2010 08:01 SuperArc wrote:
Chess has been mastered on computers for ages.
On the other hand Go computers get raped by players.
It's clear which one is the harder one.
Hard for computers != hard for humans. You can't make a computer tell the difference between pictures of cats and dogs while every human can do it without even thinking.
With this I just want to say that just because it is harder to make an accurate computer algorithm for it do not mean that the game is a better test of skill for humans.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On April 04 2010 08:11 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 08:01 SuperArc wrote:
Chess has been mastered on computers for ages.
On the other hand Go computers get raped by players.
It's clear which one is the harder one. Hard for computers != hard for humans. You can't make a computer tell the difference between pictures of cats and dogs while every human can do it without even thinking. With this I just want to say that just because it is harder to make an accurate computer algorithm for it do not mean that the game is a better test of skill for humans.
Go definitely is harder than chess, the reading requirement is so much deeper.
The beauty of Go lies in its simplicity - the rules can literally be summed up in like a paragraph. Such simplicity giving rise to such a complex game is what makes it amazing.
I wish I didn't suck at Go xD
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Yeh i couldnt really find the right words to describe how i feel when i play Go end game. I guess there's just so many damn pieces on the board it feels a bit tiring and complicated trying to find ways to squeeze out some more territory need for win. Tis how i personally feel about it anyways.
I would say Chess is more fun but Go is more challenging, maybe?
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On April 04 2010 08:07 kefkalives wrote:
The whole debate is extremely retarded. The case has been made for fans of both games countlessly on why their game is the superior one. Pointless.
I play go, 5k on kgs ;;.
LET'S PLAY. i was 4k 2 years ago. i quit since then.. and i got back recently. what a coincidence this blog came up. im around 7k now? lol
and Go is definitely harder because Computer Chess can beat pros easily. Go has infinite possibilities with ko situations. Also.. there is Shougi which is the Japanese chess. That is more popular in Japan.
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On April 04 2010 08:07 Picture wrote:Does chess have a Hikaru no go counterpart? )
It has a disney movie called Searching for Bobby Fischer
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[B]On April 04 2010 08:11 Klockan3 wrote:
You can't make a computer tell the difference between pictures of cats and dogs.
Yes you can.
Anyway it's worth to note that Chess is vastly more popular than Go, which means a larger pool of people willing to build AIs for it. Technically there are more possible positions in Go, but I don't know... weirder stuff has happened.
I don't really know anything about the Go scene, but has there been a large company like the big blue that has tried their hand at AI building for Go?
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Please stop citing chess computers as evidence for go being a harder game. The reason computers have a difficult time playing go is because it's a combinatorics nightmare of a game. Chess has significantly less moves available per turn than go does and hence computers cannot compute "good moves" in a timely/efficient manner. Humans do not think like computer algorithms and hence this analogy is just inapplicable.
Replying to the OP, I'd say go is harder, but its clearly subjective.
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I don't understand Go 
I have tried to play vs a computer program and i had no idea what i was doing. Even when i was winning i still felt clueless.
Well i'm probably almost as bad at chess but at least i somewhat understand what is going on.
When i tried go everything seemed so random ( I think i should watch good people play ).
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Belgium6768 Posts
Yeah seriously, the people using chess-AI arguments are just showing they dont understand how these artificial 'intelligences' work. Cut it out.
I personally enjoy chess the most (chess960 to be precise)
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Chess is my game because I love searching for tactics. Really, all I do now is just chess puzzles. chesstempo.com ftw!
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On April 04 2010 08:36 love1another wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 08:07 Picture wrote:Does chess have a Hikaru no go counterpart? ) It has a disney movie called Searching for Bobby Fischer
Oh lol. Thanks.
PS. This thread needs the opinion of someone who's legitimately good at both games.
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Baa?21242 Posts
On April 04 2010 09:05 Athos wrote:
Chess is my game because I love searching for tactics. Really, all I do now is just chess puzzles. chesstempo.com ftw!
Go's much more general and applicable in terms of searching for tactics or strategy.
To be honest, I think Go is a much closer game to Starcraft than Chess.
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I like Chess, I enjoy it's complexity. But Go's simplicity, combined with its depth makes it intriguing. I don't play either competitively, nor well, but if you were going to learn one, I'd suggest Go. Chess seemed too repetitive to me, though it has quite a bit of potential for interest.
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What does it mean or matter if one is "harder"? Its not like you can master either of them perfectly.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
what the heck is "better" supposed to mean...
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Seriously, I don't know how you are going to define "better".
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United States2315 Posts
On April 04 2010 11:56 Judicator wrote:
Seriously, I don't know how you are going to define "better".
Well... of course you can't come to an exact definition, but the word does have some meaning here. I mean, suppose someone asked you, which is a better game, chess or Tic Tac Toe? Or Starcraft vs. Minesweeper lol? I think almost everyone would agree which one is better, even if we can't exactly explain why.
My feeling is that Go offers more variety, and more space for creativity. Whereas Chess is more about just playing solidly, and just trying to avoid making any mistakes that'll cost you a piece, because once you lose a piece in chess you're at a significant disadvantage. Whereas losing a piece in Go is not really a disadvantage (other than the points lost), so you can easily make a comeback later.
However I suck at both games so I can't really say.
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On April 04 2010 14:00 Luddite wrote:
Well... of course you can't come to an exact definition, but the word does have some meaning here. I mean, suppose someone asked you, which is a better game, chess or Tic Tac Toe? Or Starcraft vs. Minesweeper lol? I think almost everyone would agree which one is better, even if we can't exactly explain why.
Chess outnumbers Tic Tac Toe in game possibilities on an exponential level. Tic Tac Toe was solved in 1952.
Starcraft vs. Minesweeper is comparing two completely different games; one is a fixed single-player game, the other is a dynamic multi-player game. Arguably, single player Minesweeper can be more fun than playing Starcraft against the CPU.
Neither Go or Chess is better than the other. Both require a lot of memorization, logic, and require lots of endgame calculation to win by the slimmest of margins.
Just play what you like.
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my dad 2 dan go instructor
tried to teach me when i was younger
i didnt like it at all
always had the impression he was messing with my mind
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mahjong is better because there's no luck involved in go
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Thread title should be changed from "is better" "which one do you like more".
American football is better then European football because i said so.
Not a great concept for discussion (if you dont want to end in flame wars).
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On April 04 2010 14:00 Luddite wrote:
My feeling is that Go offers more variety, and more space for creativity. Whereas Chess is more about just playing solidly, and just trying to avoid making any mistakes that'll cost you a piece, because once you lose a piece in chess you're at a significant disadvantage. Whereas losing a piece in Go is not really a disadvantage (other than the points lost), so you can easily make a comeback later.
You obviously don't know anything about chess...
I don't play either game but thinking like that is how the sub amateurs do it...
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United States2315 Posts
On April 04 2010 17:31 Klockan3 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 14:00 Luddite wrote:
My feeling is that Go offers more variety, and more space for creativity. Whereas Chess is more about just playing solidly, and just trying to avoid making any mistakes that'll cost you a piece, because once you lose a piece in chess you're at a significant disadvantage. Whereas losing a piece in Go is not really a disadvantage (other than the points lost), so you can easily make a comeback later. You obviously don't know anything about chess... I don't play either game but thinking like that is how the sub amateurs do it...
if you don't play either game then you really don't know what the fuck you're talking about, do you?
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konadora
Singapore66155 Posts
I love Go way much more than Chess.
Nothing to do with being azn.
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On April 04 2010 14:00 Luddite wrote:My feeling is that Go offers more variety, and more space for creativity. Whereas Chess is more about just playing solidly, and just trying to avoid making any mistakes that'll cost you a piece, because once you lose a piece in chess you're at a significant disadvantage. Whereas losing a piece in Go is not really a disadvantage (other than the points lost), so you can easily make a comeback later. I don't think that's true. If you're looking for creativity in chess, then check out the games of Mikhail Tal or Paul Morphy.
Solid play is important in chess, but it's the same in Go; it's certainly not a good idea to lose your groups through careless moves, right?
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hello chess players. look at your game, now back at go. now back to your game, now back at go. sadly, chess isn't go, but if chess made every piece a pawn and doubled the board size, chess could be like go. look down, back up, where are you? you are in a chess club, playing the game chess could be like. what's in your hand? it's a chess piece. look again, the knight is now a go stone. anything is possible when you switch from chess to go. i'm on a starcraft forum.
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Hmm alright. Why do you guys think Go never really made it in the western countries. I bet about atleast 3 out of 4 Americans dont even know what Go is, or if they do, they dont have the slightest idea of anything about it.
I dont know how big Chess is around the Asian countries. Is it as big as Go or even bigger?
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I don't like the way people use "computers suck at Go" as an argument for Go being the "harder" or "better" of the two. Computer algorithms are worse at playing Go because more inferences need to be made in a game of Go comparative to chess, combined with the large board size (more possibilities), it is almost impossible to evaluate the positions properly.
It shows only a poor/lack of development in machine intelligence theories in the application of Go, rather than provides a deterministic view on which game is superior.
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On April 04 2010 09:46 Archaic wrote:
I like Chess, I enjoy it's complexity. But Go's simplicity, combined with its depth makes it intriguing. I don't play either competitively, nor well, but if you were going to learn one, I'd suggest Go. Chess seemed too repetitive to me, though it has quite a bit of potential for interest.
Yeah...Chess is so repetitive that people have been formulating new openings, puzzles and strategies for it for centuries now... Oh, not to mention the 50+ books that have been written on Chess theory and strategies... So far, Go and Starcraft are so ;complex; (they are not complex) that only one book for each has been developed concerning their ;theories; and ;strategies;.
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On April 04 2010 09:16 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 09:05 Athos wrote:
Chess is my game because I love searching for tactics. Really, all I do now is just chess puzzles. chesstempo.com ftw! Go's much more general and applicable in terms of searching for tactics or strategy. To be honest, I think Go is a much closer game to Starcraft than Chess.
Thank you, finally someone else who knows how to use his\her brain has posted.
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I've played chess since I was young and I've always loved the game. I've always wanted to learn how to play go though, and whenever I read into it the game just seems so interesting in how abstract it is compared to chess. I don't know anyone that plays go though, so I dunno when I'll ever be able to learn how to play. I really do want to though, some day. My little brother, who lives in Korea, has been taking go lessons and apparently he beats my dad regularly now. I think I'm going to ask him to teach me the next time I see him.
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On April 04 2010 23:18 baller wrote:
hello chess players. look at your game, now back at go. now back to your game, now back at go. sadly, chess isn't go, but if chess made every piece a pawn and doubled the board size, chess could be like go. look down, back up, where are you? you are in a chess club, playing the game chess could be like. what's in your hand? it's a chess piece. look again, the knight is now a go stone. anything is possible when you switch from chess to go. i'm on a starcraft forum.
A++ 5/5 bravo good sir.
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On June 26 2010 05:22 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2010 23:18 baller wrote:
hello chess players. look at your game, now back at go. now back to your game, now back at go. sadly, chess isn't go, but if chess made every piece a pawn and doubled the board size, chess could be like go. look down, back up, where are you? you are in a chess club, playing the game chess could be like. what's in your hand? it's a chess piece. look again, the knight is now a go stone. anything is possible when you switch from chess to go. i'm on a starcraft forum. A++ 5/5 bravo good sir.
p-p-p-p-p-p-POWER!!!
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I believe Go is much harder. It's very hard to grasps the concept of the game. There just so many formations it mind blowing and so many ways of playing. Chess is great too but I find it much easier to understand.
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On June 26 2010 11:37 TunaFishyMe wrote:
I believe Go is much harder. It's very hard to grasps the concept of the game. There just so many formations it mind blowing and so many ways of playing. Chess is great too but I find it much easier to understand. Understand chess? Sure, take 5 minutes. Master it? Try 10 years of dedicated play. I have no opinions either way on go or chess but it annoys me how little people understand the games when trying to compare them. You can reduce anything to an incredibly oversimplified version and demean it but doing so means nothing. "Placing my stones around my opponents captures them means go is more complicated and harder to play than a bunch of different pieces trying to trap one of your opponents". As far as I can tell chess has enjoyed more success as a game, being played globally, but I can respect both as deceptively complex games of strategy, intellect, and ingenuity.
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I played tournament chess and got interested in go when studying AI. Go is definitely a much more difficult game to master and I would say that humans aren't very good at it and that computers are worse. The current algorithms for games mostly rely on high number of iterations and humans are better at Go since they can analyze the game based on patterns they observe whereas computers right now do not understand patterns the way humans do. For example, you can look at something and instantly decide that it's a table. This task is almost impossible for a computer. There are a lot of factors that go into it.
As far as games to play, I find chess is still more interesting to play because it is easier to master and has been analyzed to death. Also strategically I believe there is a lot more depth because of the limited number of moves. In go there are simply so many possible moves each turn and visualizing the board even 4-5 moves ahead is impossible for anyone which is why the games last so long. I would say chess is more like a battle and go is more like a puzzle. All in all though I love both games.
In the end I think eventually Go will emerge as the more enjoyable game once computers can actually analyze the game. With computer aid human understanding of chess has drastically increased and with go being such a complicated game I think computers will help make go into the next popular game. I think that 19x19 Go will probably be too much and that to get attention in tournaments 13x13 go will be preferred since games can be played in a much shorter time period. In chess both players make around 30-60 moves each per game. In go its closer to 150 each. By shortening it to 13x13 that will lower games to about 50-60 each which can be played in a reasonable time.
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Go is like starcraft, a better player will totally shit over you and in the end you have no fucking clue how you lost.
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On June 26 2010 14:36 darmousseh wrote:
chess is more like a battle and go is more like a puzzle
i would argue for the opposite.
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On June 26 2010 19:43 judochopaction wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 14:36 darmousseh wrote:
chess is more like a battle and go is more like a puzzle i would argue for the opposite.
I thought about it before I said this and you might be right but, chess has a very finite set of actions. There is a best possible move which will give you the best outcome, but in the end you still are trying to visualize a strategy like "attack queenside by pressing my pawns towards a certain square".
In go, the board almost looks like a picture at the end of the game. A puzzle that can never truly be understood. Ha maybe I should describe it as a painting instead. It does kinda feel like Go is an art.
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On June 26 2010 19:57 darmousseh wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 19:43 judochopaction wrote:On June 26 2010 14:36 darmousseh wrote:
chess is more like a battle and go is more like a puzzle i would argue for the opposite. I thought about it before I said this and you might be right but, chess has a very finite set of actions. There is a best possible move which will give you the best outcome, but in the end you still are trying to visualize a strategy like "attack queenside by pressing my pawns towards a certain square". In go, the board almost looks like a picture at the end of the game. A puzzle that can never truly be understood. Ha maybe I should describe it as a painting instead. It does kinda feel like Go is an art.
I'd argue for the opposite as well. Your description of chess strategy isn't necessarily incorrect, but it's limited, and only describes part of what a player is thinking. Seriously, when players think "He castled kingside, so I want to castle queenside and throw pawns at him" or other such general strategies, it takes a fraction of a second, literally.
And now, as I write this, I realize that I'm actually arguing that chess is mostly tactics and less strategy, which isn't exactly what we're discussing. I guess you could say tactics are similar to puzzles and strategies are similar to battles, though.
But yeah, chess has actual chess puzzles, like chess.com's puzzle of the day. How is it not puzzle-like?
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i find that the lessons that i've learned in chess are much more applicable to life than what i learned from go.
also, you are more likely to find amateur chess players everywhere and make good friends just chilling. but go players, you will need to go to specific clubs to play, and that kind of defeats the purpose at least in my opinion.
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On June 26 2010 13:02 calgar wrote:Show nested quote +On June 26 2010 11:37 TunaFishyMe wrote:
I believe Go is much harder. It's very hard to grasps the concept of the game. There just so many formations it mind blowing and so many ways of playing. Chess is great too but I find it much easier to understand. Understand chess? Sure, take 5 minutes. Master it? Try 10 years of dedicated play. I have no opinions either way on go or chess but it annoys me how little people understand the games when trying to compare them. You can reduce anything to an incredibly oversimplified version and demean it but doing so means nothing. "Placing my stones around my opponents captures them means go is more complicated and harder to play than a bunch of different pieces trying to trap one of your opponents". As far as I can tell chess has enjoyed more success as a game, being played globally, but I can respect both as deceptively complex games of strategy, intellect, and ingenuity.
I've played chess competitively for about 2 years. I was not top but I have a good understanding of the game. It takes a lot of time to masters the game of chess obviously. I never said it was easy.
When I was playing chess, I kind of touched Go a little bit. I'm not proficient in it to say too much about it, but I found it more complicated to understand strategies.
I believe I've read somewhere that GM think like 10 moves ahead on the entire board? In Go, I think you have to go much deeper. Each stone has the same power, but it puts together a bigger picture. Whereas in Chess, if you win certain battles, you can come out ahead. It's not easy to explain but I do think Go is harder to become pro.
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Both are really good games. Personally I prefer Go. Simple rules, but crazy amounts of thinking needed.
(Not trying to offend people who like Chess)
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I have been perusing the responses here, and having been a manager at a game store with a Go/Chess/Shogi club, as well as working in the computer sciences world, I wanted to share my observations.
Conceptually, Igo/Weiqui/Paduk (Go) is a different type of game than Chess. Chess is a linear game with very distinct rules that control the game play. Go is a game that is played with some general rules and a lot of intuition and reading of your opponent. The reason that that are no Professionally challenging Go AI's is for that specific reason.
If you have a mind that likes specific rules of conflict, then Chess (or checkers) is the game for you. If you like a game that is full inconsistencies and varying patterns and play, with much more freedom, Go is for you.
Neither is truly better than the other, and Go was a "conflict resolution" training for military leadership and samurai, reportedly, for about 5000 years, where as Chess has been used for conflict resolution (with the idea of limited controlled environments) for only about 1500 years.
Microsoft and Apple two of the worlds major computer research companies, have professional and amateur teams for both games, as both have their place and value. Neither is seen as technically superior, as both can benefit you and you can learn valuable thinking, observation, and planning skills from both.
In IT/IS support situations, I like having people with a love of both. I like having a person that has a firm grasp of Chess and a person with a solid handle on Go. The good chess player can do much more in a more restrictive environment, where as a solid Go player tends to be more adaptive to broad scopes and consistent random changes.
So, as I mentioned before, neither is really a "better" game, and I feel that everyone should try both. Yet just like jobs and hobbies, or even shoes, it is a matter of personal choice based on what you feel you get the most out of.
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EPT
