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Osaka27174 Posts
On March 16 2010 22:06 Roffles wrote:
I equate it to my Livestream chats over the months that I've streamed. At the beginning when I only peaked at around 300 viewers per night, I used to really enjoy sitting down and chatting with the sparse few that would talk in my chatroom. We'd talk about almost anything, from the games itself to whatever else was happening at the time. And it'd be nicely paced where everything was still nice and orderly. However, I nowadays get about 750 people per night watching my streams, upwards of 1500 when popular gamers/teams are playing. It's absolutely impossible with the influx of people to have an organized chat and share your opinions when people are just spamming random nonsense. When one person starts doing it, others feel like its appropriate to start doing so as well, and thus chaos erupts.
Livestream chats are fucking AWFUL, it is like real time youtube comments. I don't know how you manage it tbh. Your analogy is a good one though.
Altough the Random pics that make you laugh, even if NSFW and decreased in quality as time passed, was a great thread. I for one love funny fails and stuff like that, but i dont have the time and the taste to go to failblog 4chan and other sites like that, to search trough pages of boring stuff to find a good one. There different people who lurk at different sites posted their favorites making it a really intresting and hillarious collection.
Many sc-related pictures borned there as well, i think it is a mistake to have it closed :S
For every funny sc pic born in that thread, you had to wade through 8 nigger jokes, 12 titties, and a gaping asshole. It wasn't worth it.
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i think you contribute plenty, roffles
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On March 16 2010 22:14 Saracen wrote:
I think that the significance NSFW/Apop/Pokemon hold to the deterioration of the blogs section pales in comparison to the influx of random "what I think about SC2" threads that seem to pop up every five minutes in the blogs section because they don't belong anywhere else and everyone is just dying to read your thoughts and feelings about SC2, along with the thoughts and feelings of ten billion other people.
I used NSFW/Apop/Pokemon as an example. There's quite a lot of things that contribute to the deterioration of site quality but I wanted to keep my OP short and simple instead of making it a 5000 word essay no one would bother to read.
As you can see, other symptoms are being listed in the replies to my OP and thus fill the gaps and make it whole.
By the way, I seriously enjoy reading the comments in this thread. It's like moving back in time 
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I can only agree with mani and the others saying TL has gotten too big and thus the good posts are diluted in a sea of spam.
When I started to come here it was almost like everyone knows everyone. Now I can see posters I've never noticed before with a higher postcount than me. Earlier TL was like a big room where people would stand in different corners and you could walk around and atleast notice everyone. Now you have alot of different rooms and people in LR threads, sc2 and blogs dont mix with people in broodwar and strategy.
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For new users - The bar to participate is very low, requiring only a registration. Maybe it could be adjusted so that you can't post a topic with your first 20 posts, and a cap at 5 posts a day for your first week. People might search more and post less, leading to an increase in post quality and decrease in spam. Also, you can't bump old topics with your first 100 posts.
Maybe a forum for random posts is in order as well. A place where people are free to spam and post as much as they want with sparse moderation - though forum rules still apply. This could lead to Blogs being a place for more quality posts and General a place for discussions about current events. Over at gamefaqs.com there is a forum called "Random Insanity". It's very active with several new topics a minute, by far the most active forum over there. The quality is low and posts are rarely longer then a sentence, but it still manages to create a sense of unity and it can be quite fun to browse through. And sometimes there are even more serious topics. It's the chat Roffles was talking about - only in forum-form. Maybe users can vent in a place like that and the rest of the forums can stay clean. Images are disabled and links appear only in text form requiring users to copy-paste them into the address bar. This way it stays safer and doesn't turn into another 4chan.
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On March 16 2010 21:26 Manifesto7 wrote:The NSFW stuff I am not in favour of either and I think that will stop soon.
That would make me happy. I took a year break from TL, somewhat due to the fact that this was starting to get out of control (also because I knew I had to stop watching proleague live and I had to quit cold turkey). It has gotten pretty bad over the past month or two in particular. It doesn't bother me as much as it used to, but I've accidentally clicked the wrong thread and then gone "What on earth is this?" before realizing what has happened. Not particularly cool.
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On March 16 2010 22:21 Manit0u wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2010 22:14 Saracen wrote:
I think that the significance NSFW/Apop/Pokemon hold to the deterioration of the blogs section pales in comparison to the influx of random "what I think about SC2" threads that seem to pop up every five minutes in the blogs section because they don't belong anywhere else and everyone is just dying to read your thoughts and feelings about SC2, along with the thoughts and feelings of ten billion other people. I used NSFW/Apop/Pokemon as an example. There's quite a lot of things that contribute to the deterioration of site quality...
I've gotta say that I feel the worst effect so far is just poor-quality posts. Nothing even extreme like image macros or whatever. Just people posting whatever sits on the edges of their brain. Posts with no thought or effort, no conviction or passion. These posts are fucking everywhere, and they tend to ruin the good threads that are made - they just become 50 pages of "lol i agree".
I don't think it's the mods' faults really. I mean there's only so much you can do without indiscriminately banning every person in a thread (please, Chill, I'm begging you!).
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Yeah, the image macros are definitely getting out of control too. You never used to see them, now they seem somewhat common, even though the mods are clamping down on them.
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the word imba alone should be a bannable offense. I first saw it when I still followed Warcraft 3 and it annoyed the hell out of me even then.
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On March 16 2010 22:54 zer0das wrote:
Yeah, the image macros are definitely getting out of control too. You never used to see them, now they seem somewhat common, even though the mods are clamping down on them.
I love image macros, and they aren't that common...mods ban people who use them on sight and if you visit the automated banlist thread you'll see that there aren't that frequent bans against people who uses them.
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On March 16 2010 20:42 Nyovne wrote:
Crusade!
I love austerity >.> and blue and grey and horses perfectly fit in that
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On March 16 2010 22:36 Emon_ wrote:
For new users - The bar to participate is very low, requiring only a registration. Maybe it could be adjusted so that you can't post a topic with your first 20 posts, and a cap at 5 posts a day for your first week. People might search more and post less, leading to an increase in post quality and decrease in spam. Also, you can't bump old topics with your first 100 posts.
Maybe a forum for random posts is in order as well. A place where people are free to spam and post as much as they want with sparse moderation - though forum rules still apply. This could lead to Blogs being a place for more quality posts and General a place for discussions about current events. Over at gamefaqs.com there is a forum called "Random Insanity". It's very active with several new topics a minute, by far the most active forum over there. The quality is low and posts are rarely longer then a sentence, but it still manages to create a sense of unity and it can be quite fun to browse through. And sometimes there are even more serious topics. It's the chat Roffles was talking about - only in forum-form. Maybe users can vent in a place like that and the rest of the forums can stay clean. Images are disabled and links appear only in text form requiring users to copy-paste them into the address bar. This way it stays safer and doesn't turn into another 4chan.
I just read through the entire thread. These are some great ideas Emon. I would love it if the mods were to introduce some new things to stop the deterioration of the quality of posts. hint hint..
Anyways, I think I agree that much of the reason for the decline in threads is the influx of starcraft 2 users. In the long run, they will learn that TL is not like other internet forums, that it is a haven from stupid spam and useless discussion. That the search function is not dangerous. I agree that the quality of posts is decreasing due to the relative age of starcraft 2 users, but some of them are also transferring from warcraft, and their forums were never this great. After a few months they should come to appreciate TL for what it is. Also, the reason for the decline is not that we have more people, it's that we have more young people or people from inferior forums.
And the random pics thread is pretty much dead to me...it's run its course, every page is reposts and unfunny shit, and "wow lol" instead of pictures. There is one quality poster every five pages.
The morning hours(EST) right now still feels quiet, probably because all the starcraft 2 users aren't as diehard as to go on now.
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On March 16 2010 23:00 Boonbag wrote:I love austerity >.> and blue and grey and horses perfectly fit in that
You just gave me an awesome idea for a little project. Stay tuned for the results.
Edit: And to the post above me: Yeah WC3 forums were kinda crappy place. That's why (note: I'm a WC3 player/fan, not an SC guy) I always hung up around here and never even bothered to register at any of the WC3 or (gods forbid) battle.net forums. Surprisingly, there are quite a few very good WC3 gamers hiding around here and the few threads about WC3 in general or strategy in it, that you can find on TL.net, are pretty damn awesome.
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i've said this before and imho it's crystal clear: the one big bonus of tl.net has always been that it was a relatively small and exclusive community (compared to wc3, cs, wow ~similar communities) with users who value a game that is over 10 years old and a progaming scene that's not even available in our culture. i suspect that these traits and the manageable size have led to the forums being exceptionally mature. even when tasteless went to korea and his broadcasts were regularly announced in 4chan threads the quality of the site didn't drop that much (though i've started reading 4chan memes more and more often since then and posting culture on the whole has gotten worse with stupid "memeish" one liners). it could still be controlled.
but now we have starcraft II with teamliquid being one of the last (and first) established starcraft sites, with content and a team that has been perfected over many years and a perfect starting point to grow bigger and expand, to connect the professional coverages (i call them that) we had for sc:bw and for a relatively small audience with the huge masses that come with a new and flashy and trendy game that starcraft II is.
I once formulated my doubts what would become of tl.net and its "exclusive status" when it clashes with the huge masses of new and (young) scII fans. Whether TL could withstand the change that those masses bring and still be true to itself. I also see a difference in mentality. Most of teamliquid's users have cherished a 12-year-old game while being laughed at by many "why would you play such an old game with shitty graphics and outdated controls?" but have still been content with their game and the community because they knew what the game was worth - despite graphics and missing mbs / rally on minerals "lol wc3 has this - why play sc?". For many new users SCII is just the logical follow up of wc3 or a game they wouldn't have touched after ~2003 (sc1), they don't share the fascination that tl.net stood for in its love for bw progaming, they just see that this is the major site for sc2 atm and an alternative to the blizz forums to create their "ROACH / HYDRA / MY MOM IMBA HALP" threads.
i strongly hope that the forum vets can cope with the huge influx of new users who change the forum structure in tone, style, maturity, etc. and are able to moderate accordingly so that the tl.net we know and love won't die or become only a mere shade of its former self. if that should happen i would even have prefered tl not jumping the sc2 bandwagon at all and staying exclusively with sc1. this site is such a gem because most of the users have the "sense of star" what a great and timeless game sc1 was / is - a trait I can't expect from people who are wow / wc3 players and now frequent this site as well. it would be a real pity if tl.net would deteriorate because the (respectable) mods / admins cannot keep up with the change that happens from now on and consequently aren't able to preserve the community's identity.
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konadora is made of a-pop and pokemon
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I love the starting quote in this thread. I have always thought that Warhammer 40k games/books had some of the best/badass quotes. Some of my favorites:
Pain is an illusion of the senses, despair is an illusion of the mind.
In failure are the seeds of Heresy sown.
Perseverance and silence are the highest virtues.
These are so pro when said in the marine like gruff voice of a 40k character =D
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It's all caused by SC2, yes. With SC2 looming and the beta going, TL's getting an influx of users of a generally lower age group than previously seen. I joined TL with the influx around the GOM Invitational 2007, and wether or not TL saw an equal drop in quality by that influx, I don't know, but I'll assume if it did occur, it was nowhere near what's happening today. Age is the difference here, obviously.
With GOM Invitational, the new wave of joinees were mostly older SC-enthusiasts or previous gamers who'd experienced the game during its (back then) 8-year long life. The new influx of members though, are a part of the pokemon / 4chan generation that are attracted to TL not through their aging love for a game, but instead for their newfound love of a new game.
My point being, with original SCBW and the GOM influx, TL attracted older veterans primarily, while with SC2, TL is getting the prepubescent pond scum of the internet of today.
Just add a 20-year old limit on making new accounts and it'll all fix itself in no time.
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On March 16 2010 21:16 iG.Zeep wrote:
"give Rekrul the banstick back."
plz
This. 
Even though I don't frequently read the SC2 section because I cba to play the beta anymore, I agree with the OP, but I think the problem will be solved by the diligent TL mods eventually. Also, I couldn't agree more with what Roffles said about the livestreams. At the start it was a fun place to discuss the game with some other people while watching the games, but after a while whenever chat was on I wanted to gauge my eyes out. -___-
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Interesting question you guys raise. Is a forum's quality of users really in the hands of anybody?
The forum seems amazing to me , as someone who is surrounded by people who can't even begin understand the appeal of something like bw on a competitive level, coming to a place where everyone is into it, is so refreshing because I at least know they share a similar view in some way.
With Sc2 this may quickly deteriorate because it will no longer be such an unusual interest.
There seems to be a built in filter though, in that if you haven't worked your way up by helping others on the forum you don't really deserve the prized opinions of the known TLers. Obviously though theres no way for the ideals to be apparent to new users if it isn't clearly defined. It sounds like in the old days things peopel were able to infer these things though.
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On March 16 2010 22:06 Roffles wrote:
I equate it to my Livestream chats over the months that I've streamed. At the beginning when I only peaked at around 300 viewers per night, I used to really enjoy sitting down and chatting with the sparse few that would talk in my chatroom. We'd talk about almost anything, from the games itself to whatever else was happening at the time. And it'd be nicely paced where everything was still nice and orderly. However, I nowadays get about 750 people per night watching my streams, upwards of 1500 when popular gamers/teams are playing. It's absolutely impossible with the influx of people to have an organized chat and share your opinions when people are just spamming random nonsense. When one person starts doing it, others feel like its appropriate to start doing so as well, and thus chaos erupts.
xxx: whos playin???
xxx: Flash green, Light red
xxx: buffer into gg
xxx: BUFFER INTO GG ROFL
xxx: lol power outage
xxx: anyone else laggin?
xxx: this is chinacceptable
xxx: whos playin? did flash play yet?
Ugh. I started watching the streams a couple months ago, and I can only dream about having decent, mature discussion while watching a game live. Jokes and banter are fine, but the unfortunate tendency of the internet is to devolve into worthless meme slinging.
I've lurked around here for years, and what has really debased the experience for me is the utter lack of reading comprehension. Half of any thread is either composed of uselessly arguing over semantics or people blindly posting without having read any of the thread. The larger a thread gets, the more that people come in and post the same shit over and over. Does no one try anymore?
I'm not a beacon of contribution to this site by any means, but most of my posts I try to put a lot of thought into after reading the whole thread. Of course, that effort usually goes to waste because it's only to be drowned out by sheer spam and noise. I don't say that to whine about how I'm personally being ignored--I see it happen to most everyone that has written a quality post, and I know they must feel frustrated as well. It's a shame how much it discourages meaningful discussion. With regards to spam, I look at a few profiles for the account creation date, and people with many times my number of posts have only been here for two or three months.
The SC2 forum is where I've been seeing it the most, yes. It's happened several times that I open a thread from the sidebar and see that the OP is a single sentence about something idiotic and that the thread has been promptly closed (good work, mods!). Also, maybe we've been spoiled from Brood War, but the word "imba" being flung about in every new thread is really damn annoying. Not even the concept of imbalance, but the word itself and its contexts and connotations. Aside from that, I hear the same tired arguments repeated ad nauseum, regardless of their stupidity, the same one-liner memes, the same... mediocrity.
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EPT
