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A couple months ago i made a post about how horribly Nvidia is messing up what is now known as the "GT100", or Fermi.
However, we all know that in big business, no company can go more than 2 quarters without fucking something up bigtime. And ATI is a big business. Considering it's now released it's full product line for this generation before nVidia even released one, finishing it off by releasing the 5830 earlier this week, it's raking in the cash. So like all big companies, it has to go and make it worse for all of us.
We all know what happens when a company has no competition. And being that it's cards are faster AND cheaper than the competition, AMD is in a pricing war with itself, seeing how high it can raise prices before Nvidia gets a card out and it inevitably has to cut them, earning itself even more PR as a company that would rather sell "bang for buck" cards than make a huge profit.
But this is an obvious tactic of any corporation. Why even bother making a blog post about it? Well what started my ire was the aforementioned 5830. Basically, this card has:
1. A price between 20 and $40 cheaper than the 5850
2. Performance a little less than 70% that of the 5850
3. A TDP (total drawn power) that's higher than the 5850
4. No reference design (meaning all of the manufacturers
have to create their own PCB and cooling system, meaning probably fully half the cards will have terrible cooling)
Basically, the 5830 is a massive screw up. So between ATI exploiting the market to make more money + Show Spoiler + Which is something i'd expect from nvidia... I thought ATI's reputation with it's customers was more important than a few dollars (which they really can't be blamed for... i guess)
And so i've got to ask: ATI, why do you hate your customers? Why do you keep going against everything you previously stood for just because you're no longer the underdog?
 
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Haha just made a quick rant post about it in the Sc2 comps topic.
On February 27 2010 07:55 Boblion wrote:Damn just read some tests about the upcoming 5830 and i'm really disappointed. Could have been a great card for Sc2 but 5770 / 5850 / 4890 will be more competitive for at least two months after its release.  It isn't even better than the 4890 performance wise but way more expensive...
Still happy of my 4870 i got for 95 euros in September. ( yea i know it expensive for US ppl but that's the best deal i could find here )
In France the 5830 will be launched around 220 euros LOL
F*** the euro, what's the point of having a strong currency if instead of having a 5830 at 240$, which is already a terrible deal you get it at 220 euros ?
f**** taxes
f**** retailers and ATI.
Oh and f**** Nvidia for being useless ( no competition for ATI ) and not even releasing legit benchs of their vaporhardware after being 6 months late.
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The 5830 launches at $60 cheaper than the 5850.
The TDP at load is actually about the same as the 5850, and the idle is about the same as well.
Non reference isn't necessarily bad. MSI for example is using their awesome cooler, and Sapphire is doing very well with theirs. The temps for the card are actually very very low from the benchmarks I read. Performance is about 80% of the 5850.
why exaggerate?
Sure it is a bad value when the 4890 is $200, but keep in mind 40 nm wafers from TSMC have barely stabilized, and with the inflation of the HD 5850 and HD 5870 from their launch, a card around $240 fills the budget more 'fittingly' than a card at $200. It would definitely be a better buy at $210-220.
Yeah I am disappointed with the performance, especially after waiting so damn long for the card, but when it drops in price it will be fine. AMD is just creating a buffer for the card to drop when Nvidia unwraps Fermi 450/470/480 at Cebit.
temps and watts
http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17812/1/1/8/
pretty impressive. It is cooler than the fucking 5570 at idle goddammit.
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Yay you are probably right Frag but it is kinda irritating when we Euro French ppl get screwed so hard on the prices :S
Would you buy a 5830 at 300$ ?
haha guess why i picked Andorra as my location :3
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oh by the way ghermination, TDP is not Total Drawn Power. TDP is the amount of heat that card puts out, and the cooler has to absorb
130W TDP on an i7 920 means that your heatsink + fan needs to dissipate 130W of heat.
yea fuk u frenchies~
<3 boblion
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They are selling you crippled 5870's AMD and ATI seem to have taken up the motto oh hey there is a defect but this is still selliable.
5830 is a filler card with a bad price.
fermi looks bad now but nvidia is still making a profit and with the refresh at 28nm and soi which if they move should help out the arch fermi would really benefit nvidia because the fundamental design of the arch is much better scaling and tweaking their the old G80 base variants G92 G200 G94 etc.
Really for those who don't know the new R870 is really a tweaked respun etc over the years of the R600 design that was the 2600 XT card but becuase of how the arch was made tweaks and die shrinks applied well over the years to it and made a great chip like R770 and a pretty good chip like R870. Nvidia's arch hasn't been too good to them in scaling that's why they spent years on this redesign.
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On February 27 2010 09:21 FragKrag wrote:The 5830 launches at $60 cheaper than the 5850. The TDP at load is actually about the same as the 5850, and the idle is about the same as well. Non reference isn't necessarily bad. MSI for example is using their awesome cooler, and Sapphire is doing very well with theirs. The temps for the card are actually very very low from the benchmarks I read. Performance is about 80% of the 5850. why exaggerate? Sure it is a bad value when the 4890 is $200, but keep in mind 40 nm wafers from TSMC have barely stabilized, and with the inflation of the HD 5850 and HD 5870 from their launch, a card around $240 fills the budget more 'fittingly' than a card at $200. It would definitely be a better buy at $210-220. Yeah I am disappointed with the performance, especially after waiting so damn long for the card, but when it drops in price it will be fine. AMD is just creating a buffer for the card to drop when Nvidia unwraps Fermi 450/470/480 at Cebit. temps and TDP http://www.fudzilla.com/content/view/17812/1/1/8/pretty impressive. It is cooler than the fucking 5570 at idle goddammit.
I don't know what you mean.
The 5830 (from the prices i've looked at on e-tailers and reviews) was at my local parts store for $289.99 when i went there this morning. the 5850 is well known to retail at ~$320+, which makes it about $40 more expensive than the 5830. Looking at the price on some of the card reviews, it's MSRP stated at 230 (Guru3d),at the cheapest online wholesaler that i know of (Newegg), it's $239.99 while at an online Best Buy it's like $279.99. Only a "small" portion of the video card market is even available to online wholesayers, not to mention OEM sales. Which means most of the sales are going to be at a price far over $230.
The card draws 171 watts compared to the 153 of the 5870 and 188 of the 5870, Meaning it's power consumption is far above it's price (and think of what that means for overclocking consumption =x) (http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/sapphire_hd5830/17.htm)
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isn't that also nvidia's policy?
a gtx 275 is just a crippled gtx 285 no?
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Well that is just a difference in experiences I guess, but you'll notice that Overclocker's Club was actually OC the card quite a bit, so I doubt the total system power draw affected it too much 
Who would willingly buy parts for a higher price when they can get it at newegg for $239.99? Anybody who would be buying the should probably have the brain to buy it from a place that sells it cheaper.
I also doubt the majority of enthusiast cards are sold at the OEM level ghermination.
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define crippled:
-dies that can't get the desired frequenties and/or have damaged parts.
-dies that work perfectly but get crippled to sustain market demand
In my knowledge the HD 5830 is of the first type. It's quite obvious that ATI is using high leakage dies for it heck the higher power consumption.
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where does your knowledge come from good sir
because in most benchmarks the 5830 power consumption isn't that atrocious
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On February 27 2010 09:41 FragKrag wrote:
Who would willingly buy parts for a higher price when they can get it at newegg for $239.99? Anybody who would be buying the should probably have the brain to buy it from a place that sells it cheaper.
Taxes on imports + shipping.
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On February 27 2010 09:41 FragKrag wrote:Well that is just a difference in experiences I guess, but you'll notice that Overclocker's Club was actually OC the card quite a bit, so I doubt the total system power draw affected it too much Who would willingly buy parts for a higher price when they can get it at newegg for $239.99? Anybody who would be buying the should probably have the brain to buy it from a place that sells it cheaper. I also doubt the majority of enthusiast cards are sold at the OEM level ghermination.
What the guy above me said.
And also have you ever heard of the XPS series? Basically it's just Dell loading a shitty computer up with enthusiast parts and terrible ram/motherboard/PSU. And they sell for like $1000+ regularly. Dell has probably sold millions of these since the series came out, and i imagine they will make ones featuring the 58xx series.
That's just one example. Not to mention ibuypower/cyberpower whatever, which are basically the same company.
Not only that, but a large amount of people buy their computer parts from brick and mortar stores. Just because you think it makes them stupid doesn't mean they don't do it.
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On February 27 2010 09:46 FragKrag wrote:
where does your knowledge come from good sir
because in most benchmarks the 5830 power consumption isn't that atrocious
I agree the 5830 power consumption is not atrocious (and that the OP is exaggerating) but looking what they all cut away the power consumption should be lower or at least equal with the 5850
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The card draws 171 watts compared to the 153 of the 5870 and 188 of the 5870, Meaning it's power consumption is far above it's price (and think of what that means for overclocking consumption =x) (http://www.overclockersclub.com/reviews/sapphire_hd5830/17.htm)
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They will (hopefully) have competition when nvidia releases their fermi cards GTX 480 and 470 in March.
Thanks for the warning about the 5830 though lol
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On February 27 2010 09:54 writer22816 wrote:
They will (hopefully) have competition when nvidia releases their fermi cards GTX 480 and 470 in March.
The rumors about the 480 and 470 are terrible :S
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uhm, ok I doubt dell sells that many XPSs, but since neither of us have actual numbers...
The thing is the 5830 is about equal to or under the 5850 under many benches. The one review that ghermination continues to cling to is the review that has the most skewed output. Anandtech, Fudzilla, Tom's Hardware, and Legitreviews have them about the same. Yeah, that isn't very good, but it's not terrible.
http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1228/12/
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3750&p=12
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5830,2564-13.html
http://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/29239-sapphire-radeon-hd-5830-1gb-review-23.html
and ghermination, that review says they overclock fine, and the amount of people who OC GPUs is less than the amount that OC CPUs, and generally a fairly small group in general. Those who OC their gpus probably don't care too much about the consumption anyways.
anyways I'm waiting for Catalyst 10.3 before I make any judgements.
besides I really hate OCClub because it has terrible organization ;_;
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
Isn't it normal for a company to try to maximize it's profit? Amd was losing a lot of money in the graphics division until the 4 series came out.
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On February 27 2010 10:05 FragKrag wrote:uhm, ok I doubt dell sells that many XPSs, but since neither of us have actual numbers... The thing is the 5830 is about equal to or under the 5850 under many benches. The one review that ghermination continues to cling to is the review that has the most skewed output. Anandtech, Fudzilla, Tom's Hardware, and Legitreviews have them about the same. Yeah, that isn't very good, but it's not terrible. http://www.legitreviews.com/article/1228/12/http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=3750&p=12http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/radeon-hd-5830,2564-13.htmlhttp://www.hardwarecanucks.com/forum/hardware-canucks-reviews/29239-sapphire-radeon-hd-5830-1gb-review-23.htmland ghermination, that review says they overclock fine, and the amount of people who OC GPUs is less than the amount that OC CPUs, and generally a fairly small group in general. Those who OC their gpus probably don't care too much about the consumption anyways. anyways I'm waiting for Catalyst 10.3 before I make any judgements. besides I really hate OCClub because it has terrible organization ;_;
Other than hardwarecanucks most of those agree with me generally, with the voltages varying a bit. And they all have performance numbers for it around the 4890, which is just abysmal for being $30 more expensive.
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none of them agree with you except anandtech
are you kidding?
legit reviews: +2w difference
tom's: +8w at idle, -10w at load
fudzilla: -2w at idle, +10w at load
anandtech: -1w at idle, +17w at load
again, the power consumption is not good (bordering on bad), but it isn't absolutely terrible. The 5850 itself was extremely power efficient in the first place as well. If anything, it should be compared against the GTX 275 and HD 4890, the cards it will be competing against.
as for performance, it is around the same as the release of the 5770. A bit under the previous holder at that pricepoint. Just the 5830 is too expensive.
Edit: Another note about the power consumption is that some reviews are giving it 260W at load, and others are giving it around 350W at load... which is actually something I didn't notice earlier.
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On February 27 2010 09:38 FragKrag wrote:
isn't that also nvidia's policy?
a gtx 275 is just a crippled gtx 285 no?
Well the diff is that the 5830 mostly are defective chips like their X3 line up which were defective quad cores that were further crippled. Why do you think there is no PBC for it ati just not being lazy buggers.
The 5830 is really a defective then crippled 5870 it's why the draw it high and crap. Again nothing wrong with this so long as the chip works right and they all work just about the same like a AMD did with their X3 cpus which were mostly defective cpus and some of them were purpose defective to meet up with demand :D
Anyways the GTX260 (216) is as much of a GTX285 then a GTX275 all are GT200b arch chips only diff is the shader and core etc crap.
either way i'm not buying from either this gen gonna wait for 28nm and soi to hit both of them. hopefully they get even better gating and power leaks will be at a bare min esp for the fermi as it would really help out with the hot clock and subsequent half clock of the cpu which they couldn't do due to the high leaks in the card so far they aren't reaching their core clock they wanted.
The refresh of the 5xxx should also do well probably add a bit more tessellatiors to it but the over all arch again works well it's just been severally modded over the years form the R600 and this works it's why nvidia new arch the Fermi is similar in fashion highly modular and perfect for scaling, just die shrink and respin and tweak and you have a new card powerful enough to sell but not spending massive money on research of new arch.
Nvidia's failure is that they invest highly into arch for alot of chips, and so alot of their chips aren't related too closely to each other, while ati spends money on new processes and die shrinks and just spends little bit on arch tweaking. For Nvidia this was fine for a year or two but now die shrinks are getting to the price and yield rates that aren't favorable for nvidia and now nvidia has to spend more and more on getting the processes of newer die sizes. Nvidia also needs to start making smaller gpus fermi failure is that it's too fat so the natural defects effects the yield more because they make less chips outta a slap while ati only looses 7 chips outta like (random number) 50 nvidia losses 7 chips outta like 35 and it cost them they same to process the same slab so nvidia has gotten sloppy.
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Sanya12364 Posts
lol @ European taxes. That's what you get for living in Europe.
As for ATI cut them some slack. There are some hard problems being solved in the latest generation of GPUs so it's not easy making them faster, better, and cheaper.
The ones that really should complain are linux users. They've gotten the worst kind of driver support out of ATI.
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Well it's better then when all the drivers had to pretty much remade and compiled by linux users vs companies supplying them.
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who honestly cares about linux users
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OP fails.
5830 is $50 cheaper than the 5850.
5830 is essentially a crippled version of the 5870 with a massive heatsink/fan, overclocking results will be off the charts.
It is not a very good card, but definitely not as horrible as the OP suggests.
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i think it's funny how people can look at the same set of benchmarks and still come out with different conclusions ><
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I think some of the benchmarks that were made were based on the 5830s ATi sent, whereas some were probably by the partners. I haven't really checked yet though.
The LegionHardware benches actually have it above the 4890 most of the time (except for 3 titles I think). They actually got a 5830 that was just stuffed into a 5870 case (lol). Interestingly enough, the 5870 reference cooler actually did worse than Sapphire's own cooler
http://www.legionhardware.com/articles_pages/ati_radeon_hd_5830,1.html
I don't really trust this review though. It seems too different from the others.
Anyways we come up with different conclusions because we base our conclusions off of different benchmarks. I pretty much only use Tom's, Hardwarecancuks, and Anandtech for benchmarks, but they each got different results -_-
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On February 27 2010 12:39 TanGeng wrote:
lol @ European taxes. That's what you get for living in Europe.
As for ATI cut them some slack. There are some hard problems being solved in the latest generation of GPUs so it's not easy making them faster, better, and cheaper.
The ones that really should complain are linux users. They've gotten the worst kind of driver support out of ATI.
Second that. Their Linux drivers are atrocious, why do they even bother putting them up if they won't work?
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EPT
