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On January 06 2010 00:57 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On January 06 2010 00:47 orangeshines wrote:On January 06 2010 00:14 Megalisk wrote:
It would be impossible to do this for free...imagine the massive demand there would be. Inc can't just give hours and hours of his time for free, time is money. If Incontrol has time to spend and a lot of passion for this game he should use his knowledge and insight to do something similar for the zergs not cause complete noobs to waste money. Just purely ridiculous logic: Someone did something charitable for the community so we should hold everyone to that standard. Nonsense. I don't think you should tell inc what to do with his free time at all. If someone gave me a free drink, I wouldn't get upset when I don't get another free one, nor would I expect that. I'm happy I got it and I moved on.
not that i mind, but it seems principally contradictory to the entire ideal of teamliquid to promote self gain. the reason being that even though the site was initially built by a small group of core individuals it has since blossomed into much of a community effort. teamliquid no longer spiritually belongs to team liquid members rather everyone who is a member of the site.
given the community mentality people freely post (sometimes feel obligated to give back) translation, replays, fpvod, etc on the site because we all gain from it. this becomes problematic when people decide to promote things for their own gain.
we can take for example the backlash at vgtour linking that happened or when people try to link ebay auctions of beta keys, or even when articles that are freely posted on this site are taken from it in its entirety.
the same principles apply, intellectual property debate aside, why would non-staff writers want their articles to be TL exclusive? how many hours did someone spend translating an article, how many hours did it take to build tlpd or write a final edit? why were they done for free? would you feel the same way if said translation or article were constantly linked externally? these are all questions you should ask in order to understand why people view a paying for service on this site as taboo.
the core staff do a lot of work on this site but without a community there would currently be no core staff. similarly it's the community that still holds TL together there may come a day when teamliquid will have to pay people to write front page articles, update tlpd or liquipedia, or even give advice in the strat forum and the people who seek gain will evoke the same argument you have.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
Are you seriously arguing that anyone asking for any compensation on TL.net is going to start a snow-ball effect of one day every service TL offers being exclusive to pay services only?
You know that there are commentators who won't do events without pay right? Xeris has asked for money to run tourneys, is that wrong?
I feel like this philosophical argument has been made and is really more a projection of people's general discomfort with anyone monetarily gaining in SCBW without winning a tourney.
TL isn't running a banner advertising for me. They haven't staffed me and given me my own subforum. I have 3 blogs that I update and bump where people have the option to pay me for a service. A service btw, that is community based and beneficial for more people than just myself. It isn't like I am charging people for the privilege to game with me.. I am literally training them.
It'd be nice if I had the time/money to selflessly train random people with no compensation except that old phantom hero pat-on-the-back but unfortunately I am not in that place. So instead I require a very small fee. Now I know you are uncomfortable with the principle of this process and not so much the logistics but I cannot help but to boil it down to what is literally happening: No, TL has not experienced this influx of people demanding money for services. No, people are not experiencing a vacuum of top foreigners willing to help without pay for various endeavors. In fact all people are "experiencing" are a bumped blog every once in awhile and some private individuals gaining access to a level of training they would otherwise never get near.
So what's it to you?
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On January 16 2010 20:12 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
Are you seriously arguing that anyone asking for any compensation on TL.net is going to start a snow-ball effect of one day every service TL offers being exclusive to pay services only?
depends on what you consider value. what's the difference between what you're doing and writing articles, commenting on replays, or making fpvods? if you give these things value they can be translated into monetary compensation. if they can do these things for free why do others ask for compensation? this isn't some backhanded insult, to understand the mentality you have to understand the answer to the question.
as i have said i don't have a problem with it but it seems principally inconsistent with tl policy and you can see why people are uncomfortable with it.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
you did an amazing job of not answering any of the q's I post and instead infer some arbitrary argument about value.. which of course neither of us can "define" in this context especially since you are speaking on the hypothetical level with an assumed authority.
Translating an article, converting a vod or writing a news post DOES NOT = spending 5-10 hours training someone over ventrilo. Yes those are labors that are selfless and charitable but the difference is if someone refuses to translate someone else will step up. If someone won't upload vods someone else will do it. It doesn't require some specific skill set that very few have or can do.. it is something many can and are willing to do. And the comparison becomes even more drained when you notice that TL.net didn't approach individuals and ask that they do these chores. These individuals volunteered.
Not many have the skill in SCBW that I do. Fewer yet are able to take those skills and teach them to other individuals. Fewer even still have the patience or time to take both the prior mentioned factors and convert them into training sessions for a small fee.
There is no precedent for coaching for a fee on TL.net, not on this scale. Comparing it to _any_ act of selfless community work is erroneous and bad.
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On January 17 2010 08:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
you did an amazing job of not answering any of the q's I post and instead infer some arbitrary argument about value.. which of course neither of us can "define" in this context especially since you are speaking on the hypothetical level with an assumed authority.
Translating an article, converting a vod or writing a news post DOES NOT = spending 5-10 hours training someone over ventrilo. Yes those are labors that are selfless and charitable but the difference is if someone refuses to translate someone else will step up. If someone won't upload vods someone else will do it. It doesn't require some specific skill set that very few have or can do.. it is something many can and are willing to do. And the comparison becomes even more drained when you notice that TL.net didn't approach individuals and ask that they do these chores. These individuals volunteered.
Not many have the skill in SCBW that I do. Fewer yet are able to take those skills and teach them to other individuals. Fewer even still have the patience or time to take both the prior mentioned factors and convert them into training sessions for a small fee.
There is no precedent for coaching for a fee on TL.net, not on this scale. Comparing it to _any_ act of selfless community work is erroneous and bad.
you've done exactly what your opposition has accused you of. you've put yourself on a pedestal by disregarding the hard work of other people who've worked to better the community.
what is arbitrary about value? if someone holds something to be of value they are willing to pay for it and clearly you hold yourself of higher value than the volunteers among the community. to you you are infinitely more valuable because they can easily be replaced and thus my exaggerated snowball example holds no grounds. clearly.
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my previous post was quite a tangent. you say that people will always step up to fill in the shoes of valuable community members and it's true but why? what motivates people to work without seeking gain?
if you can answer that question you'll have found the essence of what makes this community so great and perhaps receive insight to a perspective which opposes your own.
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what's the difference between what you're doing and writing articles, commenting on replays, or making fpvods? if you give these things value they can be translated into monetary compensation. if they can do these things for free why do others ask for compensation?
I don't really see a difference and I am astonished that so many members of TL are willing to do such things for free. I certainly appreciate it, but it's still quite surprising.
None of those people have any sort of obligation to provide a free service to the TL community.
There are people willing to coach for free. Incontrol is not one of those people. If you wish to have Incontrol coach you, you pay him.
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On January 17 2010 08:36 mahnini wrote:Show nested quote +On January 17 2010 08:00 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
you did an amazing job of not answering any of the q's I post and instead infer some arbitrary argument about value.. which of course neither of us can "define" in this context especially since you are speaking on the hypothetical level with an assumed authority.
Translating an article, converting a vod or writing a news post DOES NOT = spending 5-10 hours training someone over ventrilo. Yes those are labors that are selfless and charitable but the difference is if someone refuses to translate someone else will step up. If someone won't upload vods someone else will do it. It doesn't require some specific skill set that very few have or can do.. it is something many can and are willing to do. And the comparison becomes even more drained when you notice that TL.net didn't approach individuals and ask that they do these chores. These individuals volunteered.
Not many have the skill in SCBW that I do. Fewer yet are able to take those skills and teach them to other individuals. Fewer even still have the patience or time to take both the prior mentioned factors and convert them into training sessions for a small fee.
There is no precedent for coaching for a fee on TL.net, not on this scale. Comparing it to _any_ act of selfless community work is erroneous and bad. you've done exactly what your opposition has accused you of. you've put yourself on a pedestal by disregarding the hard work of other people who've worked to better the community. what is arbitrary about value? if someone holds something to be of value they are willing to pay for it and clearly you hold yourself of higher value than the volunteers among the community. to you you are infinitely more valuable because they can easily be replaced and thus my exaggerated snowball example holds no grounds. clearly.
He's not more valuable, he didn't say that at all, or flash it. He simply stated that his kind is rare, and what he is doing is more difficult, therefore if he wants to charge a small fee, he can.
How is that hard to understand?
So shh when you say he CLEARLY holds him self of higher value, when you're skimming through what he says, and bring up pointless discussion.
(P.S. Mods say its fine, your argument is invalid anyway.)
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did you think out what you posted before you decided to do so?
the concept i'm trying to explain is very simple. perhaps i've convoluted it a bit. consider a writer who fills a majority of the TL front page. there is a reason for his charitable attitude, this ideology is the point i'm trying to make. you can understand why those who subscribe to such an ideology will find this monetary venture out of place on TL and if TL embraces such a venture what message does it send?
however, it seems this point can wholly be ignored now because cranking out articles with consistently high quality on a weekly basis is quite easy. easy to the point where the supply of writers for these articles far outstrips demand and therefore are of less value. inc said this himself, and you have repeated it while trying to prove otherwise but somehow only succeeded in proving my point. perhaps our definition of value differs.
i'm not trying to get inc to stop so in a sense im not really providing an argument. it just seems there should be more thought placed in the underlying issue.
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On January 17 2010 09:47 mahnini wrote:
there is a reason for his charitable attitude, this ideology is the point i'm trying to make.
Probably this reason: that writer enjoys writing articles for TL enough to do so for no monetary gain.
If said writer doesn't enjoy writing the articles, said writer should stop writing the articles. Doing something you don't enjoy for no gain, or something that you don't feel is worth the time...
it just seems there should be more thought placed in the underlying issue.
I really don't see what this "underlying issue" is.
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so what would happen if a writer decides to stop writing for TL and start his own site and perhaps convince other TL writers to join him. not only that but said writer decides to continually link his own site on TL.
you are not forced to click the link and the link contains a good amount of content. should this still be allowed? what do you think the communities opinion on this would be?
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On January 17 2010 11:02 mahnini wrote:
so what would happen if a writer decides to stop writing for TL and start his own site and perhaps convince other TL writers to join him. not only that but said writer decides to continually link his own site on TL.
you are not forced to click the link and the link contains a good amount of content. should this still be allowed? what do you think the communities opinion on this would be?
It's fine, depending on how "continually" the site is linked. If it's in three blog posts made a while apart, it's fine. If it's in posts made daily, that's against TL rules.
Most of TL would probably dislike this, but none of the staff has any sort of binding obligation to continue working for TL for free.
Certainly whichever writer it is would become an outcast at TL and rightfully so, but if he's willing to do that and thinks the payoff outweighs the drawback it is the correct decision.
edit to pre-empt a response I thought of: Re: outcast at TL
The reason said staff member should become an outcast is that he was previously providing content for free and then charging money for the same content elsewhere (actually I personally wouldn't treat someone who just left to write articles for free on another site as an outcast, and I also see zero reason for anyone to ever do that anyway). It's the "betrayal" aspect that leads to the person being an outcast, not the fact that he's writing somewhere other than TL or charging for the articles (well actually I can't speak for how all TL would treat him. That's my feeling anyway).
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On January 17 2010 09:47 mahnini wrote:
did you think out what you posted before you decided to do so?
the concept i'm trying to explain is very simple. perhaps i've convoluted it a bit. consider a writer who fills a majority of the TL front page. there is a reason for his charitable attitude, this ideology is the point i'm trying to make. you can understand why those who subscribe to such an ideology will find this monetary venture out of place on TL and if TL embraces such a venture what message does it send?
however, it seems this point can wholly be ignored now because cranking out articles with consistently high quality on a weekly basis is quite easy. easy to the point where the supply of writers for these articles far outstrips demand and therefore are of less value. inc said this himself, and you have repeated it while trying to prove otherwise but somehow only succeeded in proving my point. perhaps our definition of value differs.
i'm not trying to get inc to stop so in a sense im not really providing an argument. it just seems there should be more thought placed in the underlying issue.
Yes I did.
They're not embracing incs "monetary venture" they're simply letting it happen, they're not supporting it, they're not helping him, they just are letting it happen. So this makes no sense.
And I didn't say writing articles is simple, what I said was hes a rare kind, with a service.
A lot more people can write articles then can teach starcraft at his level, and you thinking this is a gigantic issue is ridiculous, its some dude charging for a great service, with great feedback.
Plus inc does a ton of stuff for TL, when hes dedicating 4-5 hours STRAIGHT to a student, why can't he charge?
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someone in the gg.net news actually made a good point. they tried to have a student/teacher thread and there was a bunch of people who wanted to be students, but a real shortage of qualified teachers. there is a demand for bw lessons, and even though it may seem unfair to the people who provide services for free, theres gonna have to be money involved to make it happen. teaching is not easy, not particularly fun for most people, and to be honest the people qualified to teach have better, more productive things to do with the time they spend on starcraft.
and the analogy with a staff member who breaks off and forms his own site isnt really a good one, hes competing with tl + the betrayal you talked about. there arent any quality free lessons, and as far as i know never have been. incontrol isnt betraying anyone, he isnt under cutting anyone. basically its either no lessons, or pay incontrol 10$ for lessons if you choose to. do you really think it would be better to have no lessons at all?
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FuDDx
United States5015 Posts
Wow....
I support what you do Inc
I cant support you financially one because I suck ass at broodwar and I have other things pressing me for my time other than broodwar. ( i will buy beers for any TL.netter i meet if asked, age appropriate*)
Why it bothers people is silly to me.
Any students of note Inc ? Someone that blew you away skill wise? Someone that shocked or startled you? Anything weird at all ?
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i'm all for it. just saying their are differing perspectives of looking at it.
betrayal (in my hypothetical situation) implies that there is some moral high ground in that situation which there isn't because they are not obligated to write for free, but obviously since multiple people brought it up you can see how people would feel that way. why the people would feel betrayed is what i think some people feel with this situation here.
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actually i tend to think its that people enjoy having their panties in a bunch cuz it gives them something to bitch about.
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maybe. but who doesnt like their panties in a bunch. we thrive off drama.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
On January 17 2010 12:29 FuDDx wrote:
Wow....
I support what you do Inc
I cant support you financially one because I suck ass at broodwar and I have other things pressing me for my time other than broodwar. ( i will buy beers for any TL.netter i meet if asked, age appropriate*)
Why it bothers people is silly to me.
Any students of note Inc ? Someone that blew you away skill wise? Someone that shocked or startled you? Anything weird at all ?
I always try and avoid naming people directly just because not everyone wants to be continually brought up as a "student" (this has never been an outright issue, I'd just like to be sensitive in case)
but I think what has impressed me the most isn't one particular student but how IN GENERAL decent people are. Really my lessons have been about fixing pretty small things and getting them to implement those things in future play.. there of course have been some that need total rehauls or working on critical issues but I have been surprised at how many students are pretty damn good that nobody has heard of. SC2 is going to be interesting hehe.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
btw I really respect this argument. There was no name calling and it remained civil.. I appreciate that. I understand my coaching rubs some the wrong way.. all I ask is that people keep an open mind. I really believe in what I am doing and so far the positive feed back from those that have been taking me up on this is 100%.. that is good btw.
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