Yeah, people usually acknowledge that Free is good but in all seriousness, he has one of the best PvZ:s out there. PvZ to me is the matchup which separates the really good protoss users from the mediocre. This elusive matchup is always in the way for protoss to become truly dominant and few players have managed to not look like underdogs in PvZ, regardless of their opponent. Bisu, Free, Movie and Stork (I'm a dumbass and probably left someone out) is basically how good PvZ gets.
So, the reason for this blog entry is because I just watched Free vs Effort in the latest proleague game between Woongjin Stars and CJ Entus. Free played a really good textbook PvZ game, on how to kick a zergs ass. His mechanics and micro are extremely impressive alot of times in this matchup and it feels good to not think that protoss is at disadvantage in a PvZ game, which is what Free[gm] does to you.
I feel like he could become really awesome but he has been on the verge for quite some while. PvZ is what holds every protoss back except for Bisu, but Free plays this matchup without fear or second thought. He switches the game on zerg with sick timing attacks (like in the video below vs Effort), and expands like he's alone on the map.
donno why your linking that game, it was a terrible game. After free took a massive advantage effort refused to leave and just flapped around for 15 minutes, and despite free being up two bases, he couldn't end the game with a simple roll over. Truly a mediocre game...
On January 03 2010 04:15 Chill wrote: I actually think that's a terrible game. I don't see how you can justify free's skill based on that game...
THANK you. I was shaking my head when I was watching it last night, and everyone was screaming about how good it was. I cant believe anyone thinks that wasnt a bad game.
I think Free vs Jaedong a few months ago (crazy game that free won with use of reavers + archon's if I'm not mistaken) is a bigger testimony to his skill.
On January 03 2010 04:22 FlamyDeath wrote: I think Free vs Jaedong a few months ago (crazy game that free won with use of reavers + archon's if I'm not mistaken) is a bigger testimony to his skill.
Edit: might have been in the ClubDay 2008 MSL..
This. The one where Free had about a bajillion archons.
On January 03 2010 04:07 Foucault wrote: Bisu, Free, Movie and Stork (I'm a dumbass and probably left someone out) is basically how good PvZ gets.
Kal. On his good days.
And Jangbi on his good days too.
But that game was terrible. Free's macro was on par with a zerg when he was up a base. Free should of been able to finish off effort a long time ago. I mean effort didn't even make a single lurker to turtle. Jangbi had a hard time finishing effort, but that is because effort turtled like a mofo.
To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level.
In all fairness it was terrible because Free pulled some brilliant maneuvers early on. Of course Effort made some tactical mistakes, but most Protoss players would not have dismantled him so thoroughly.
But yeah, it was a terrible game. It was over after like 10 minutes. Everything else was just Effort being desparate.
The game that comes to my mind as highlighting Free's PvZ the most is that famous dismantlement of Jaedong.
On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote: To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level.
Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through.
On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote: To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level.
Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through.
protoss cant turtle? Thats like probably the best strategy protoss can use lategame :O (take ~half the map and turtle with cannons/reavers/templars)
On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote: To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level.
Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through.
you overuse the word turtle.
If the zerg is aggressive vs the protoss, he's abusive.
If the zerg is defensive vs the protoss, he just turtles.
What do you want zerg and or terran to do?
Think about effort vs jangbi. So what if he turtled? Effort put everything into turtling. EVERYTHING. He was barely pumping drones, squeezed out another hatch and got upgrades, but was focusing on just defending with lurker ling. He never put any pressure on all that time. Jangbi was instead of building up a huge force in preparation for late game and efforts antics, he kept being aggressive trying to break him. He forced effort to focus even longer on defense and was able to leave effort close to mined out when effort finally was able to attack expansions and attempt sniping them off.
Zerg can't have an army they can attack anywhere and not lose in seconds until they get to late game with ultra/ling and a nice advantage, Protoss however, can. Don't say you can just a-move hydra everywhere, because i advise you to play zerg and do that vs 1 or 2 storms that kill 15 hydras.
Protoss army has strength and mobility combined, and force the zerg and terrans to adapt as the situation calls. Can Mass hydra with muta sniping and lurkers later work better than fast hive and lurker defence into management? Both are very contrasting. Zerg has insane mobility, Terran has insane firepower, how you use it vs the constantly strong and mobile protoss army is the key.
Anyway, when zerg finally get a strong enough army that they can brute force a protoss, that's when protoss can turtle. Believe me, you do not want to vs a defensive late game protoss on even terms (watch violet vs hogil to see why)
MuffinDude once it gets late game a Protoss turtling with Reaver/Storm and good Gateway blocks at his expansions is basically impossible to break so I've no idea what you mean by Protoss not being able to turtle like EffOrt did. It's perfectly vaible and very fucking annoying to deal with
On January 03 2010 08:50 FranzF1 wrote: Jangbi is the best PvZer ever... you cant say otherwise, well on his good days (I think he got the best PvZ winning streak).
Khan fighting!
Uhm, no. Check TLPD. Bisu has a longer streak and probably other players as well (I only bothered checking Jangbi and Bisu).
On January 03 2010 08:50 FranzF1 wrote: Jangbi is the best PvZer ever... you cant say otherwise, well on his good days (I think he got the best PvZ winning streak).
Khan fighting!
Definately not. I'd choose Bisu over Jangbi any day.
Oh and in long, drawn out and epic PvZ:s, Stork has my pick. He just CAN'T loose an epic PvZ game. Stork vs Gorush on (what map?) This is an understatement. I should definately make a thread on Storks MEGA SUPER EPIC PvZ:s throughout the years. Holy shit, pure Starcraft enjoyment right there.
On January 03 2010 04:50 Oystein wrote: To be honest I think both this game and Efforts game vs Jangbi where he also lost showed more how Effort is the superior player compared to the others. In both games he got ridiculously set back early, but in both games he showed some sick macro and management and kept himself in the games much longer than other Zergs would have and at times it looked like he just might could make a comeback out of the games. Actually I think Effort would probably have won the game if he had just moved his rallypoints and not lost a gazillion lings just running past lots\archons and saved his min only and the 3extra hatches that was there.
Props to Free for a brilliant DT block in the ramp allowing him to go on a rampage at Efforts 3rd and later getting into the middle of his rallypoints, and props to jangbi for a brilliant DT sneak, but if these games showed us anything its that neither of these players could take down Effort in a late management game without getting huge early advantages. His management style and lategame is just on another level.
Honestly, I was surprise effort could live so long after free, but it felt like free stopped macroing after going up on like 2 bases. But v jangbi, what effort did was what zergs can do and protoss can't, which is turtle. Effort has great macro to live so long, but if effort was playing protoss, he would never be able to turtle so long. Ling lurker on upper hill is just such a good turtle. Its not that effort has great skills, which he does, but more because zerg can turtle for waaay to long. Its like terrans can turret tank v protoss and it will take forever to break through.
protoss cant turtle? Thats like probably the best strategy protoss can use lategame :O (take ~half the map and turtle with cannons/reavers/templars)
Some protoss users like to think that they have it the worst, it seems. But everyone else can abuse and turtle. Must be hard to be delusional a protoss.
On January 03 2010 08:50 FranzF1 wrote: Jangbi is the best PvZer ever... you cant say otherwise, well on his good days (I think he got the best PvZ winning streak).
Khan fighting!
Definately not. I'd choose Bisu over Jangbi any day.
Oh and in long, drawn out and epic PvZ:s, Stork has my pick. He just CAN'T loose an epic PvZ game. Stork vs Gorush on (what map?) This is an understatement. I should definately make a thread on Storks MEGA SUPER EPIC PvZ:s throughout the years. Holy shit, pure Starcraft enjoyment right there.
Neo Requiem.
As as for epic PvZ/ZvP matches, I'd say that Gorush is the bigger contributor. Gorush's management style had a tendency to create titanic slugfests. Case and point: Stork vs Gorush, Nal_rA vs Gorush on Neo Forte, NaDa vs Gorush (especially on Luna, the game with the medic wall), etc. As I said in another thread, many progamers have commented over the years that the best game they ever played was against Gorush.
Yeah, that game was epic though. That, and Ra vs Gorush and Reach vs Chojja on Rush Hour (3?) were some of the greatest PvZ games ever played. You don't see Starcraft like that anymore. Going back further, the game between Giyom and Zerglee on Blade Storm was ridiculous back in it's day (MAELSTROM!).
EPT
