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On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:... Third splitting game time with a friend on an rpg, and basically spoiling all the great experiences by not becoming invested on what the next turn of the page is really puts a huge damper on the experience. + Show Spoiler [do not read if you really didn't…] +one of the most emotionally heart wrenching scenes in an rpg to this day is when Aeris dies at the hands of sephiroth. ...
+ Show Spoiler [about the spoiler] +Actually at this point I was so fed up with aeris' bitching I actually was really happy when she died, I was really was worried about losing all the materia she had on her though.
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Perhaps I won't add much to the discussion after TheYango summed it all up nicely but I would like to rant about the OP a bit too.
The OP is talking all over about his RPG "experience" while apparently not really familiar with the genre at all. He is familiar with half of the FF series (there were FF 1-6 you know), TES IV: Oblivion and goes even as far as calling MW2 an RPG.
Let's start with the last one. OP claims that it's a recent trend to introduce shooter games with RPG elements. If this was based solely on the First Person Perspective then we should go as far as Eye of the Beholder which was released in 1990, then through Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra in 1991 and Ishar series started in 1992 to Might and Magic IX in 2002. We can't also forget titles like Gothic and TES series.
If it was based on the shooter aspect then we would have to go through System Shock series which started in 1994 all the way through Dark Corners of the Earth, Bioshock and Dead Space which have much more in common with RPG than MW2.
By then we would discover that shooter/RPG games can't really be called a "recent trend".
Now the failure of mentioning the "staple" RPG titles in video game industry like Baldur's Gate series, Planescape: Torment, Neverwinter Nights series, Fallout series, KotOR series or TES III: Morrowind, which was simply jawdropping when it was released, is something people who have grown up playing RPG games on a computer can not and will not forgive.
It is a lesson for the OP: if you're going to talk about something, at least do your homework so you know what you are talking about. Before you start bashing the "western" RPGs (which in my opinion beat JRPG in every possible way) the least you could do is look around and try out some of the major titles in the genre.
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On December 20 2009 22:39 lingallin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:... Third splitting game time with a friend on an rpg, and basically spoiling all the great experiences by not becoming invested on what the next turn of the page is really puts a huge damper on the experience. + Show Spoiler [do not read if you really didn't…] +one of the most emotionally heart wrenching scenes in an rpg to this day is when Aeris dies at the hands of sephiroth. ... + Show Spoiler [about the spoiler] +Actually at this point I was so fed up with aeris' bitching I actually was really happy when she died, I was really was worried about losing all the materia she had on her though.
hahaha materialist gamers the breed of FF6 loot i tell you i want loot
jk of course.
one thing to note i seem to be one of the few people who loved aeris as a character and found her much more intriguing than tifa,
+ Show Spoiler +and i was really pissed about the leveling time i had lost using afterwards though, in my mind there was no possible way they could let me invest so much into her, and have her built just like other characters in terms of potential, and even spent the next 2-3 hours of game time wondering when she was coming back through some dramatic revival or SOMETHING. alas it was not meant to be
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The declining 'RPG Experience' is the result of thick nostalgia goggles.
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all. As for the Japanese RPGs on the list, they're repetitive and grindy.
Planescape: Torment is the only old gem that really continues to shine, because that game was basically good based entirely on its mind-blowing story and not on its combat system (which is awful). Morrowind also keeps a bit of its magic thanks to the amazing atmosphere the game had because of its exotic and fantastic setting (Oblivion was so vanilla fantasy in comparison).
RPGs aren't getting worse, you're just getting older. You've seen it all before. Hit the enemy until it dies and cast healing spells when you get low on health.
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On December 20 2009 19:27 Elaeli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:
it's not that they are trying to live UP to standards, because every game you mentioned lived up to, and surpassed all the previous standards be it in graphics, game play, story, etc whatever it was it needed to be. With standards I don't mean taking how good the graphics are / how many skills there are / size of the files or similar "measurements", but rather "what you expect from a game of this genre". For BG-style RPGs this would be something like romance dialogues, influence ratio on partymembers, random encounters while traveling, having "Haste" and "Grease" as a spell, Bastard Sword +1, etc. You all expected that when you heard of Dragon Age being BG's spiritual successor. It would be unthinkable to NOT include this. And instead of simply "creating a game", developers rather take those standards and add a little bit on top of it, calling it a better game than those that were there before (which is true to a certain degree, except that the charm of the original, where things weren't yet considered "standard", is lost). It's just a copy.
it is simply being money grubbing half assers that produces these "let's remake the same game with better graphics and technically change the setting"
Logically speaking you could take the baulder's gate rule set, game style, lore base, item list, refine and deepen it, but ultimately use it and cut the time you spend working on the nitty gritty stuff like thinking up weaponry, skills, spells, balance, etc and with the time cut spend AS MUCH TIME on the story, a NEW story, with original implications, a different sort of emotional roller coaster.
but yes now i see your point in they try to reach up to the standard and then just half ass it till it
reaches shelves.
On December 21 2009 00:01 Hinanawi wrote:
The declining 'RPG Experience' is the result of thick nostalgia goggles.
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all. As for the Japanese RPGs on the list, they're repetitive and grindy.
Planescape: Torment is the only old gem that really continues to shine, because that game was basically good based entirely on its mind-blowing story and not on its combat system (which is awful). Morrowind also keeps a bit of its magic thanks to the amazing atmosphere the game had because of its exotic and fantastic setting (Oblivion was so vanilla fantasy in comparison).
RPGs aren't getting worse, you're just getting older. You've seen it all before. Hit the enemy until it dies and cast healing spells when you get low on health.
i disagree planescape: torment is a gem because it was an amazing rpg, not because it was replayable, i played through torment once, and never wanted to play through it again.
FF7 was amazing also because of the story, and if a played it again now i would still know that this is an amazing rpg, regardless of what i critique now, because of what it accomplished the first time around.
baldur's gate same thing.
each offered a different story, different character depths, different perspectives on whatever it was they were portraying, and each one is GREAT.
of course there are rpgs that were good the first time around due solely on the wonderful giddy omg this is an rpg feeling, one of my all time nostalgia related favorites is breath of fire. I LOVE breath of fire, and say it's a good rpg, however i do not stack it up with the three mentioned, or even a few others, simply because there is a difference between the two.
i would like the opinion of some tlers on a particular game ( if they played it) and that's Phantasy Star 3 i cannot decide if the game is genuinely really good, or it's nostalgia.
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What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/
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On December 20 2009 15:41 L wrote:
Eh. Talking about RPGs without mentioning the ultima games?
Who the hell cares about baldur's gate when you can be THE AVATAR.
this game made me insane when i was 14.
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On December 21 2009 00:07 Nebula wrote:
What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/
I'm kind of surprised to hear that, there are only so many times you can have fun abusing the combat system (see: the Kensai class) and trying different combos before it gets extremely boring. The story in BG2 was good, but nothing spectacular, either. It was amazing for its time, but I can't imagine why anyone would replay it regularly. Arcanum is even worse...unless you cheesed your way through the game with Harm the first time and want to use tech on your second playthrough for an actual challenge, it doesn't really have that much replay value either.
Honestly, the last time an RPG really impressed me was NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. I was expecting something really mediocre after playing NWN2, and was suddenly blown away by a game that sucked me in and really made me want to see what would happen next.
+ Show Spoiler +
The ending was terrible, though. They build you up to get excited about tearing down the Wall of the Faithless, your place in the Second Crusade, all this amazing background coming together...and then your character just says "Fuck it" and goes home. I hear that it was because Wizards of the Coast told the writers "AH-AH-AH, CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT WITH OUR SETTING" when they wanted to let the player tear down the wall. It's a real shame, and it ruined what could have been an amazing climax to the story.
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On December 21 2009 00:17 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 00:07 Nebula wrote:
What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/ I'm kind of surprised to hear that, there are only so many times you can have fun abusing the combat system (see: the Kensai class) and trying different combos before it gets extremely boring. The story in BG2 was good, but nothing spectacular, either. It was amazing for its time, but I can't imagine why anyone would replay it regularly.
Or you could play the game through NORMALLY and not try and abuse the combat system? Like... say... not play the same class over and over again? Plus, there are tons of mods out there that change the combat system/quests.
Sure, it may not be your cup of tea, but realize that you're posting this in a Starcraft forum, a game released in 1998.
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On December 21 2009 00:25 goldrush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 00:17 Hinanawi wrote:On December 21 2009 00:07 Nebula wrote:
What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/ I'm kind of surprised to hear that, there are only so many times you can have fun abusing the combat system (see: the Kensai class) and trying different combos before it gets extremely boring. The story in BG2 was good, but nothing spectacular, either. It was amazing for its time, but I can't imagine why anyone would replay it regularly. Or you could play the game through NORMALLY and not try and abuse the combat system? Like... say... not play the same class over and over again? Plus, there are tons of mods out there that change the combat system/quests. Sure, it may not be your cup of tea, but realize that you're posting this in a Starcraft forum, a game released in 1998.
All I did was offer my opinion - I loved BG2 back in the day, but I don't see how it has any lasting replay value today. If you can still get entertainment out of it, more power to you. To me it seems like one of those "you had to be there" games.
If someone told me they were a total noob to RPGs and they wanted to try some somewhat older games, I would tell them to check out Planescape: Torment, Morrowind, and Fallout 2. If they asked about BG2, I would probably say "Yeah, that game was awesome...but you kind of had to be there."
'There' meaning the year 2001. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Speaking of timeless games, Deus Ex. Ten years from now I'll still be telling people who have never played it to play it.
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Tales Series. Seriously, are there no Tales players?
Guess I gotta play FF7 now to understand why everyone thinks it is so good, but from all I know about it, Tales > FF anytime (yes this is my personal opinion).
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This thread really wants me to play some old games...
I never played Planescape:Torment, back when it was released I used to buy 2 different pc magazines, one said it was great, one said it was pretty good but only gave it like a seventysomething rating so I never bought it.
Never played through Deus ex either, I just remember playing through the demo and not enjoying it that much but it wasnt enough to judge the game.
I wish I had as much spare time now as I had back then..
oh Btw. @OP I really disagree about the "polish" part.. that is not a sign of a great game.
The German version of fallout for example the synchronisation fucking sucked, every sentence not even close to being grammatically correct, but it was obviously a great game.
Also the gothic games are known for being ridiculously buggy at release but they are also good games.
I agree about one thing though.. to really have the kind of RPG experience I used to have, where I really got sucked into the world, I'd have to be a kid again, even if the game is great, I have changed and things dont impress me like they used to :/
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On December 21 2009 00:01 Hinanawi wrote:
The declining 'RPG Experience' is the result of thick nostalgia goggles.
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all.
I loled. Could have been a good troll though.
BG modded is still the best all around rpg imo ( or at least one of the best ).
Give me an rpg who has:
- better gfx ( you will find some recent games that's sure )
- better story ( yea i know Torment but then mmm ... not many )
- better gameplay ( gl fiding something better than BG modded with SCS, i don't have played every rpg since BG but still i don't think there are many games better gameplay wise )
- more lenght ( uh none ? )
- the same replayability.
You won't find a game better in all this categories
If you find one give me the name asap plz.
And no it isn't only nostalgia. This game doesn't have any big flaws and is still pretty good in every aspect.
However you are a Dx fan so you are forgiven :p
edit: i don't play a lot Rpg nowadays but my last good experience was the Nameless Mod for Dx. Really awesome for a mod.
On December 20 2009 16:16 TheYango wrote:
EDIT: lol Boblion why do we always jump on these RPG threads?
Because i'm always eager to read your posts 
You write the kind of posts that i would like to make. But because my English isn't good enough i can't.
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apparently Lufia II is being remade on DS, but into an action RPG.. Im very interested, Lufia is the best RPG series not named Chrono.
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On December 21 2009 01:56 Skyze wrote:
apparently Lufia II is being remade on DS, but into an action RPG.. Im very interested, Lufia is the best RPG series not named Chrono.
Lufia 1 / 2 and to some extent 3 are great games, no doubt, but Lufia 4 is bad. I've played through each of them (except for #4) several times, but I wouldn't say they are better than games like Tales of Phantasia, Secret of Mana, Seikendensetsu3, Bahamut Lagoon and Chrono Trigger. All of these have some unique features to them, so it's hard to compare them even though they all were for the SNES, but I certainly wouldn't say that Lufia is better than for example Tales of Phantasia.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2009 00:01 Hinanawi wrote:
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all. As for the Japanese RPGs on the list, they're repetitive and grindy.
Baldur's Gate II is not terribly replayable out of the box, but the mod community has breathed at least 2-3 more playthroughs into it through all the added content. As far as the general experience, Boblion has summed up what makes it great. The graphics are good in the way Starcraft's are good. They're not driven by advanced 3D game engines, but by the actual artistic elements--they're functional, and have good design and composition. The story is unique in it's own little way-it's a soul-searching experience, but in the sense that your character is literally looking for someone who's stolen his soul. It's enhanced by the choices you make with real consequences along the way. The gameplay is unmatched, and most certainly does *not* require cheese to get through (even with SCS, though Tactics is a completely different ballgame).
There's one other thing I have to add: the Baldur's Gate shines in one aspect that often gets neglected--character interaction. The characters in BG2 are well done. They've been given way more lines and responses than the paltry few that get seen in RPGs today. You know how many recruitable NPCs there were in BG1? Twenty-five. All with reasonably fleshed out backstory, and some unique interactions (e.g. when the Harpers and Zhentarim find each other out, they break out in combat to the death). No game since can possibly match that. BG2 doesn't meet that number, but it exceeds the characters of BG1 by adding in banters, as well as deeper explorations of each character.
Might and Magic 6 & 7 are bad now, but you know what? They were mediocre when they came out. IMO M&M 3/4/5, the real gems of the series, have held up (graphics are a bit dated, but are still better than most handhelds, and the gameplay is still nice).
If you're playing Arcanum for the combat, you're doing it wrong. For one, ANY playthrough of Arcanum should not be based on a combat-based character. The combat system is not that solid--and focusing on it is a good way to get burned out before you get to the real meat of the game. The game is more dependent on your conversational stats than Planescape, but is a completely different style. It's probably the closest thing to the "open-world" RPG done correctly. It rubs some people the wrong way though, because as someone once told me "other games put you as a character in a story--in Arcanum, you ARE the story."+ Show Spoiler +For example, some people get mad finding out that guy in the first town you visit that asks for the ring is a phony. They'll say something along the lines of "How was I supposed to know that I'm not supposed to do that?" There is no "not supposed to" with Arcanum. The story goes on. It's just that the crook that steals the ring turns an entirely new twist on it.
As far as the JRPGs go, I've said how I believe that JRPG's stand on a flawed concept on the first page. Most of them simply don't use the interactivity of a game in a way that benefits the storytelling experience. This has been true of the genre since the beginning.
On December 21 2009 00:17 Hinanawi wrote:
Honestly, the last time an RPG really impressed me was NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. I was expecting something really mediocre after playing NWN2, and was suddenly blown away by a game that sucked me in and really made me want to see what would happen next.
MotB is probably the best story-driven RPG of the last 5 years. I would venture to say it's the best-written RPG since Planescape. Of course, Chris Avellone certainly met his expectations on it, and the fact that he's still true to his Interplay roots makes me excited for Alpha Protocol.
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On December 21 2009 02:38 TheYango wrote:
As far as the JRPGs go, I've said how I believe that JRPG's stand on a flawed concept on the first page. Most of them simply don't use the interactivity of a game in a way that benefits the storytelling experience.
You forgot to add that most JRPGs (all of them that I've seen so far but I haven't seen many so I don't want to put the word "all" before JRPGs) are more of a "grow your character(s)" kind of game than a true RPG.
The formula of "You can have a bazillion levels, train your character in a bazillion possible ways and some more and then you have a gazillion items which you can tinker with in a bazillion ways" is cool but not really necessary as you begin to worry way too much about your character and its progression than the plot/conversations/nuances that make for a good RPG.
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It reminds me too much of animes too #_#
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The reason I had less than a total experience with FF7 was because I was like 7 years old, coupled with the fact that I split time with my cousin. I wrote a fair number of words, if I had written about all the other great RPGs out there this blog would have been insanely long. You are allowed to write an article about a topic and not include EVERYTHING about it. I used the few games I did as examples in my changing RPG experience. Yes, I did use two extremes, I felt they suited the experience of a gamer playing RPGs that are on the popular side of the spectrum. This is why I enjoy polish in a game so much because I expect it from games put out by major houses.
I did not write this to say, "Hey look, I know absolutely everything about RPGs that there is to know." I ask those who read to think about how their experiences with these games have changed since they were younger.
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if u haven't played Chrono Trigger, do it now, easily one of the best RPGs ever.
FF8 sucks, just putting it out there
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EPT
