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edit: Rant warning, I couldn't muster the effort to actually make this a truly cohesive article, take of it what you will. A good abstract of this would say that it glosses over the changing elements of the popular RPG.
I write my first TL blogpost on something unrelated to SC, and that is my experience with RPGs. In anticipation of the upcoming FFXIII, I am playing through FF7 and hopefully two other RPGS, maybe FF9, one from the SNES era, or a newer one. I admit the first and only time I played through FF7, my cousin and I split playtime, and I really didn't pay attention to the plot. The first FF game and RPG for that matter that gripped me was FF8. After playing that and the majority of the other games in the series, as well as a number of other RPGs of different variety I feel I can say that I am well acquainted with the traditional RPG.
I'll frame my experience in terms of the first parts of FF7, do not spoil for others if you wish to comment please. Perhaps I am naive reliving RPGs of days past expecting a rich story with high quality writing. Do not misunderstand me, I believe FF7 is a good experience, but I do not feel the same sense of being totally immersed in the experience. To me, in an RPG that is story-driven, you really should feel a strong attatchment to the characters. It may be that I am too early in the game so far, but I remember more wonder and excitement in my play-throughs of games in the past.
After writing that little blurb, it seems I cannot control my urge to speak tangentially: I cannot help but compare the styles of RPGs to define "The RPG Experience."
The Elder Scrolls series is a perfect example of a modern, albeit simplified, Dungeons and Dragons. While there are not infinite possibilities for the player-character, the idea has stayed the same: kill monsters, go questing, upgrade your character, and the story is not the true hallmark of the game. Compared to JRPGs, the story in these types of games is absolutely paltry; the linear is juxtaposed with the openness of a world like TESIV. There is often a rift between gamers who prefer the RPGs from Japan and those who do not, but as MMOs become ever more popular, the single player experience has received less attention.
After playing a number of games, I've surmised that the RPG experience has changed so much because of market saturation, and the information age. About 10-20 times per day, I probably think about how something would be different were it not for the wealth of free information available to us all. We've all seen stories in the vain of a JRPG a thousand times, and we are not quite at the age where games are made as a recreation of a classic. That is not to say that games are remakes, but rather follow similar plotlines or themes. While some themes are indeed hallmarks of every RPG, the deeper elements and more "difficult" plot elements are losing novelty at this point. I feel this is also due to the influx of gamers entirely rooted in gameplay-based products. Sure, FF Tactics is gameplay basec, but it's blatantly that way and is meant as a challenge. The gamer type I refer to is those who play MMOs or the recent trend of shooter games with RPG elements, one could certainly consider MW2 such a game. I am not saying those who play such games are "idiots," but the industry has responded by investing less in an RPG with a total experience. Instead, we see games affording the player ultimate choice, they are not bounded by a set story.
This approach has its pros and cons, and of course supporters and decriers. Ultimately, I have found that if the industry produced 3-5 very good traditional RPGs per year, older RPG gamers like myself would be happy. The real telling sign of a good RPG is polish, there should be no need for "patches" or "balancing." This brings me back to my recent FF7 experience. I think my lack of excitement with the game so far is because the bar has been raised so high in games recently, where complaints in a game's design should be minimal. At the time, FF7 was far and away more polished than any game we had seen, and at times I have to remember this.
Perhaps we have to take a trip in time to when we were young and impressionable to really experience these RPGs to the fullest. They were indeed designed with a rather young audience in mind, the development of an emotionally mature RPG is rather recent. RPGs of the past are more visceral, and save the philosophical meditations for the antogonists or minor characters. The elevation in the minds of many of video games from toys to art rashly affects our views of the games most akin to books, RPGs. It seems we must separate ourselves entirely and forget what is the world in which we live in, and follow the stories of past RPGs as a child does: accept each thing as fact unless there is a reason to doubt, the stories are designed to lead the player. There is no true freedom, and we must revel in the boundaries, as the story could not exist any other way.
 
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I'm not quite clear on what you're trying to say. You seem to be lamenting rpg's as having become more about gameplay than story. I really think games have always been made for both audiences. The plots of FF rpgs may be cliche, but they're still fun. I remember in FF9 + Show Spoiler +my friend who had already played the first half of the game, without my knowledge, kept saying like 'omg, what if this guys a clone, and this ship is a clone factory, and they use those clones to power everything' and I was like 'hahaha' and then when actually turned out to be what happens I was all 'wtf :@' ... but in the end what I appreciated most was the feeling and sense of passage of time that game gave me, because every step in the story was so different from the last it kind of made you feel like you were traveling to exotic places
I wish I still had time for these things.
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On December 20 2009 14:40 Chef wrote:I'm not quite clear on what you're trying to say. You seem to be lamenting rpg's as having become more about gameplay than story. I really think games have always been made for both audiences. The plots of FF rpgs may be cliche, but they're still fun. I remember in FF9 + Show Spoiler +my friend who had already played the first half of the game, without my knowledge, kept saying like 'omg, what if this guys a clone, and this ship is a clone factory, and they use those clones to power everything' and I was like 'hahaha' and then when actually turned out to be what happens I was all 'wtf :@' ... but in the end what I appreciated most was the feeling and sense of passage of time that game gave me, because every step in the story was so different from the last it kind of made you feel like you were traveling to exotic places I wish I still had time for these things.
After the first two paragraphs it became clear I could be writing for like 5 days, so I just tried to quick summarize everything. My apologies if it is unclear, just try to take a few things from it, not a total idea.
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You are ranting about Rpg and you didn't even mentionned Baldur's Gate, Torment or Fallout.
Wtf man.
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On December 20 2009 14:52 Boblion wrote:
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You are ranting about Rpg and you didn't even mentionned Baldur's Gate, Torment or Fallout.
Wtf man.
read post above
Although I will say that I LOVED BG2, that game was ridiculously good.
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On December 20 2009 14:52 Boblion wrote:
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You are ranting about Rpg and you didn't even mentionned Baldur's Gate, Torment or Fallout.
Wtf man.
This. It doesn't matter if you thought it would take too long. Any rant about the state of RPGs and a comparison to the golden age of RPGing cannot be had without mention of Planescape Torment and Fallout 1-2 and Baldur's Gate 1-2.
Those are the granddaddies of PC RPGs. I won't even mention Star Control 2.
And FF6 > 7
And there are still good rpgs being put out there right now.
Valkryia Chronicles
Dragon Age
King's Bounty: The Legend.
All very nice RPG games.
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Eh. Talking about RPGs without mentioning the ultima games?
Who the hell cares about baldur's gate when you can be THE AVATAR.
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Oh Christ, don't let this thread become a "How come you didn't mention this game" thread. He was trying to make a point not a list.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 20 2009 15:43 Bearigator wrote:
Oh Christ, don't let this thread become a "How come you didn't mention this game" thread. He was trying to make a point not a list.
The thing is, it's relevant. His point is based on the premise that he understands the "traditional RPG". This premise, however, is not supported by his statements. He mentioned the Final Fantasy series, which is a JRPG, only half the picture (and given the questionable quality of recent Final Fantasy games when compared to newer staples of the genre like the Shin Megami Tensei series, not even a good characterization of that half). He mentions the Elder Scrolls series, which, quite frankly, is a crappy characterization of western RPGs. Oblivion was bad. Morrowind was good, but in terms of design philosophy, a step backward from Daggerfall (e.g. if they made a Daggerfall-like game with modern technology, it would be phenomenal--the random generation of content would exceed even Spore, and have the gameplay to back it up).
The OP has characterized 2 extremes that don't characterize the entire genre. Gamers who swear by the Interplay trifecta: Fallout/Baldur's Gate/Planescape, often aren't really excited about either extreme. Arguably, those two extremes suffer because they aren't built around solid premises. Personally, I feel that the JRPG as a concept is flawed: it can't present a story in the fluid manner of a book, movie, or even the closest medium, a visual novel. And without deep combat mechanics, character development, or choices and consequences, there's nothing beyond a story with flawed delivery to add to the experience. By contrast, the open-world concept has a perfectly fine premise, but is flawed in execution: the only major studio that has tried it is Bethesda, and their attempts at it are half-assed at best.
The section of RPGs that the OP has neglected is the real "traditional" RPG. It is the type of RPG brought together by Ultima, Might and Magic, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, etc. It is the character-driven western RPG: it does what the OP complained is lacking in both the JRPG and the "open-world" RPG--it presents a story, and then gives you the domain to develop a character. It keeps you on rails just enough to keep the story in the foreground, but it gives you enough freedom to truly develop your character and the interactions with those around him.
In regards to the issue of how the industry has developed, this is happening throughout the entire gaming industry. And you know what? It's happened before. Books. Movies. Comics. Music. I've said this again and again. As entertainment media enter the mainstream, the original fans of the medium are marginalized, because in order to be mass-marketable, companies need to abandon some of the values which the original core customers hold dear. And you know what? People deal with it. We have independent films, writing, music, etc. Some people sell out to the new stuff. Some people stick with the old, exploring abandonware they never got to try when they're younger. And some people move into independent media, which, as far as RPGs go, is flourishing. Dwarf Fortress does the open-world better than any game before. Eschalon Book 1 and Knights of the Chalice fill the void left by Fallout and Baldur's Gate. And occasionally, the mainstream still produces something amazing, like VtM: Bloodlines, or NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer.
tl;dr, the RPG "experience" has not changed. It's been marginalized by a profit-seeking industry, but as with the experience in other venues of entertainment, the old way of doing things is certainly alive and well.
EDIT: lol Boblion why do we always jump on these RPG threads?
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Games are just getting "too good". Say, RTS being in full 3d and having no macro at all; MMOs going from UO "everything goes" to casual-friendly carebearland WoW; or RPGs getting unneccesarily overloaded with features OR being too simple. The decision developers today make often seem to be influenced by questions like "Is it easy enough so literally everybody can play through it without any trouble?", "What is the standard of the genre and what little things do I add to stand out?", or simply "What sells?".
If people would stop thinking about commercial success for once and instead focus on making a great game, we'd get the entertainment we want and they'd get the $$ because they actually made something that's worth buying.
If you'd ask me if I prefer Lufia 2 or Dragon Age, Dark Age of Camelot or (insert random new WoW clone), SC or C&C RA3, Mario Kart 64 or whatever of the thousand NFS the newest is?
It's always the older game. It seems like the fun-factor is getting sacrificed for the sake of living up to standards. You don't need games in shiny graphics, half-naked women or suggestive scenes, easy to understand mechanics or a game that holds you by the hand and doesn't allow you to make mistakes, but rather a good concept and a challenge for the player to get good enough to beat the game.
It isn't just RPGs that are suffering if you ask me.
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being perfectly honest you stated FF8 was the first rpg you played that gripped you, you skimmed through FF7 and you are well versed in rpgs ...
let's be honest you aren't well versed, you can't possibly be. also mw2 is not an rpg in any way shape or form, i assume you are talking about fallout 3
FF7 is still great and let me clarify something, no rpg since FF7 has come close to it, all the rpgs that contend with FF7 for a spot on the top are all older, and for good reason. rpg quality dropped drastically after FF7.
FF8 was still good FF9 was half decent FF10 was a bit disappointing FF12 was garbage
now let's look at why, well FF8 didn't really revolutionize anything, it didn't give you a brand new experience, and although the plot was well written it simply wasn't unique. and i have a small quip in regards to the music in FF8 i think they really could have done a better job.
but forget all that, let me regard you and why ( i believe) you feel this way toward ff8 and ff7.
FF8 is better than anything that came out after it, and by quite a margin.
the reasons you do not seem to attach yourself to FF7 the same way you do when you play FF8 are: first you are attached to ff8 due to it effectively being the one that introduced you into the rpg genre, and that is natural. Second since you played ff8 first and invested your self emotionally into it, the fact taht FF7 came out before it becomes irrelevant to you, in your timeline FF7 was after FF8 emotionally speaking, and what FF8 did was take A LOT of what was good in FF7 and regurgitate it, so to you it feels like a lot of what you see in FF7 you have seen and felt before. Third splitting game time with a friend on an rpg, and basically spoiling all the great experiences by not becoming invested on what the next turn of the page is really puts a huge damper on the experience. + Show Spoiler [do not read if you really didn't…] +one of the most emotionally heart wrenching scenes in an rpg to this day is when Aeris dies at the hands of sephiroth.
I will however say you should restart and give it an actual go, don't half ass it, literally take 2 days off of whatever life you have and invest it into this rpg, not in a critical mind, but openly seeing and feeling everything they go through, from beginning to end.
FF7 was not the first rpg i played or loved, but it is certainly one i place at the top or near it.
On December 20 2009 16:21 Elaeli wrote:
Games are just getting "too good". Say, RTS being in full 3d and having no macro at all; MMOs going from UO "everything goes" to casual-friendly carebearland WoW; or RPGs getting unneccesarily overloaded with features OR being too simple. The decision developers today make often seem to be influenced by questions like "Is it easy enough so literally everybody can play through it without any trouble?", "What is the standard of the genre and what little things do I add to stand out?", or simply "What sells?".
If people would stop thinking about commercial success for once and instead focus on making a great game, we'd get the entertainment we want and they'd get the $$ because they actually made something that's worth buying.
If you'd ask me if I prefer Lufia 2 or Dragon Age, Dark Age of Camelot or (insert random new WoW clone), SC or C&C RA3, Mario Kart 64 or whatever of the thousand NFS the newest is?
It's always the older game. It seems like the fun-factor is getting sacrificed for the sake of living up to standards. You don't need games in shiny graphics, half-naked women or suggestive scenes, easy to understand mechanics or a game that holds you by the hand and doesn't allow you to make mistakes, but rather a good concept and a challenge for the player to get good enough to beat the game.
It isn't just RPGs that are suffering if you ask me.
it's not that they are trying to live UP to standards, because every game you mentioned lived up to, and surpassed all the previous standards be it in graphics, game play, story, etc whatever it was it needed to be.
in a lot of games you have people not sacrificing to meet standards they simply believe that graphics and special effects are now an end, not a means to reach an end.
graphics are supposed to immerse you, they are a tool to make the story much easier to enter, not the reason you slap a story on there to show off. And this has crossed over to movies as well.
for once i would love for an game ( preferably an rpg) to be made now with all the knickknacks we have available, BUT with an amazing writer and a huge emphasis on telling a story.
Here's to hoping FF13 doesn't twist the knife in my heart.
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Hmm. Odd. I'm playin ar tonelico again.
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"Off course" FF7 was polished! Actually, I just had to say it. I know that's not what you mean by polished, so don't take that too seriously.
But one thing...you do realize that there's a whole subgenre of tactical RPGs of which FF Tactics is a part, right? e.g. Fire Emblem, Shining Force, Disgaea, etc.? That they all are gameplay-based to the extent of FFT, and even more in many cases? Why bring FFT up if we're talking about the games not in the subgenre? I guess there's no point in bringing up dungeon crawler RPGs, because you get the point already.
To be honest though, I'm an RPG fan but I don't particularly like the role-playing or plot-watching aspect. I like the games that are gameplay-oriented without being focused on grinding or other repetitive tasks, and aren't too easy. If a game's main fault is that it's too easy, it'll still get great reviews--in fact, it might even improve the scores. However, if a game is too difficult (rare), it'll hardly get good reviews or sales. So the safe and logical play is to make RPGs that will not frustrate almost all players, which ends up being easy or too easy for many players.
From my perspective, though, there have been good games since FF7 or FF6 or whatever doomsday cutoff period some people set.
If you want jRPGs that are story-focused in the extreme, play the Xenosaga games.
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Perhaps I am naive reliving RPGs of days past expecting a rich story with high quality writing.
I guess that is the answer. The stories don't get worse, you're just growing up~
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On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:
it's not that they are trying to live UP to standards, because every game you mentioned lived up to, and surpassed all the previous standards be it in graphics, game play, story, etc whatever it was it needed to be.
With standards I don't mean taking how good the graphics are / how many skills there are / size of the files or similar "measurements", but rather "what you expect from a game of this genre".
For BG-style RPGs this would be something like romance dialogues, influence ratio on partymembers, random encounters while traveling, having "Haste" and "Grease" as a spell, Bastard Sword +1, etc. You all expected that when you heard of Dragon Age being BG's spiritual successor. It would be unthinkable to NOT include this.
And instead of simply "creating a game", developers rather take those standards and add a little bit on top of it, calling it a better game than those that were there before (which is true to a certain degree, except that the charm of the original, where things weren't yet considered "standard", is lost). It's just a copy.
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I would like to know how many posts Boblion has where he types the words "Baldur" or "Planescape"
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On December 20 2009 21:08 Ganfei wrote:
I would like to know how many posts Boblion has where he types the words "Baldur" or "Planescape"
I would like to know how many many posts Ganfei has where he types the words "Incontrol" or "ban".
Tbh i think that Planescape and Baldur are mandatory in "Games that you have to play" or "Best rpg" threads so i have probably a couple of posts about it since this kind of thread are often made in the blog section.
Now lets know how many times "starcraft" is mentioned on this forum.
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On December 20 2009 21:08 Ganfei wrote:
I would like to know how many posts Boblion has where he types the words "Baldur" or "Planescape"
The man has good taste.
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EPT
