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edit: Rant warning, I couldn't muster the effort to actually make this a truly cohesive article, take of it what you will. A good abstract of this would say that it glosses over the changing elements of the popular RPG.
I write my first TL blogpost on something unrelated to SC, and that is my experience with RPGs. In anticipation of the upcoming FFXIII, I am playing through FF7 and hopefully two other RPGS, maybe FF9, one from the SNES era, or a newer one. I admit the first and only time I played through FF7, my cousin and I split playtime, and I really didn't pay attention to the plot. The first FF game and RPG for that matter that gripped me was FF8. After playing that and the majority of the other games in the series, as well as a number of other RPGs of different variety I feel I can say that I am well acquainted with the traditional RPG.
I'll frame my experience in terms of the first parts of FF7, do not spoil for others if you wish to comment please. Perhaps I am naive reliving RPGs of days past expecting a rich story with high quality writing. Do not misunderstand me, I believe FF7 is a good experience, but I do not feel the same sense of being totally immersed in the experience. To me, in an RPG that is story-driven, you really should feel a strong attatchment to the characters. It may be that I am too early in the game so far, but I remember more wonder and excitement in my play-throughs of games in the past.
After writing that little blurb, it seems I cannot control my urge to speak tangentially: I cannot help but compare the styles of RPGs to define "The RPG Experience."
The Elder Scrolls series is a perfect example of a modern, albeit simplified, Dungeons and Dragons. While there are not infinite possibilities for the player-character, the idea has stayed the same: kill monsters, go questing, upgrade your character, and the story is not the true hallmark of the game. Compared to JRPGs, the story in these types of games is absolutely paltry; the linear is juxtaposed with the openness of a world like TESIV. There is often a rift between gamers who prefer the RPGs from Japan and those who do not, but as MMOs become ever more popular, the single player experience has received less attention.
After playing a number of games, I've surmised that the RPG experience has changed so much because of market saturation, and the information age. About 10-20 times per day, I probably think about how something would be different were it not for the wealth of free information available to us all. We've all seen stories in the vain of a JRPG a thousand times, and we are not quite at the age where games are made as a recreation of a classic. That is not to say that games are remakes, but rather follow similar plotlines or themes. While some themes are indeed hallmarks of every RPG, the deeper elements and more "difficult" plot elements are losing novelty at this point. I feel this is also due to the influx of gamers entirely rooted in gameplay-based products. Sure, FF Tactics is gameplay basec, but it's blatantly that way and is meant as a challenge. The gamer type I refer to is those who play MMOs or the recent trend of shooter games with RPG elements, one could certainly consider MW2 such a game. I am not saying those who play such games are "idiots," but the industry has responded by investing less in an RPG with a total experience. Instead, we see games affording the player ultimate choice, they are not bounded by a set story.
This approach has its pros and cons, and of course supporters and decriers. Ultimately, I have found that if the industry produced 3-5 very good traditional RPGs per year, older RPG gamers like myself would be happy. The real telling sign of a good RPG is polish, there should be no need for "patches" or "balancing." This brings me back to my recent FF7 experience. I think my lack of excitement with the game so far is because the bar has been raised so high in games recently, where complaints in a game's design should be minimal. At the time, FF7 was far and away more polished than any game we had seen, and at times I have to remember this.
Perhaps we have to take a trip in time to when we were young and impressionable to really experience these RPGs to the fullest. They were indeed designed with a rather young audience in mind, the development of an emotionally mature RPG is rather recent. RPGs of the past are more visceral, and save the philosophical meditations for the antogonists or minor characters. The elevation in the minds of many of video games from toys to art rashly affects our views of the games most akin to books, RPGs. It seems we must separate ourselves entirely and forget what is the world in which we live in, and follow the stories of past RPGs as a child does: accept each thing as fact unless there is a reason to doubt, the stories are designed to lead the player. There is no true freedom, and we must revel in the boundaries, as the story could not exist any other way.
 
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I'm not quite clear on what you're trying to say. You seem to be lamenting rpg's as having become more about gameplay than story. I really think games have always been made for both audiences. The plots of FF rpgs may be cliche, but they're still fun. I remember in FF9 + Show Spoiler +my friend who had already played the first half of the game, without my knowledge, kept saying like 'omg, what if this guys a clone, and this ship is a clone factory, and they use those clones to power everything' and I was like 'hahaha' and then when actually turned out to be what happens I was all 'wtf :@' ... but in the end what I appreciated most was the feeling and sense of passage of time that game gave me, because every step in the story was so different from the last it kind of made you feel like you were traveling to exotic places
I wish I still had time for these things.
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On December 20 2009 14:40 Chef wrote:I'm not quite clear on what you're trying to say. You seem to be lamenting rpg's as having become more about gameplay than story. I really think games have always been made for both audiences. The plots of FF rpgs may be cliche, but they're still fun. I remember in FF9 + Show Spoiler +my friend who had already played the first half of the game, without my knowledge, kept saying like 'omg, what if this guys a clone, and this ship is a clone factory, and they use those clones to power everything' and I was like 'hahaha' and then when actually turned out to be what happens I was all 'wtf :@' ... but in the end what I appreciated most was the feeling and sense of passage of time that game gave me, because every step in the story was so different from the last it kind of made you feel like you were traveling to exotic places I wish I still had time for these things.
After the first two paragraphs it became clear I could be writing for like 5 days, so I just tried to quick summarize everything. My apologies if it is unclear, just try to take a few things from it, not a total idea.
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You are ranting about Rpg and you didn't even mentionned Baldur's Gate, Torment or Fallout.
Wtf man.
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On December 20 2009 14:52 Boblion wrote:
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You are ranting about Rpg and you didn't even mentionned Baldur's Gate, Torment or Fallout.
Wtf man.
read post above
Although I will say that I LOVED BG2, that game was ridiculously good.
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On December 20 2009 14:52 Boblion wrote:
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You are ranting about Rpg and you didn't even mentionned Baldur's Gate, Torment or Fallout.
Wtf man.
This. It doesn't matter if you thought it would take too long. Any rant about the state of RPGs and a comparison to the golden age of RPGing cannot be had without mention of Planescape Torment and Fallout 1-2 and Baldur's Gate 1-2.
Those are the granddaddies of PC RPGs. I won't even mention Star Control 2.
And FF6 > 7
And there are still good rpgs being put out there right now.
Valkryia Chronicles
Dragon Age
King's Bounty: The Legend.
All very nice RPG games.
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Eh. Talking about RPGs without mentioning the ultima games?
Who the hell cares about baldur's gate when you can be THE AVATAR.
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Oh Christ, don't let this thread become a "How come you didn't mention this game" thread. He was trying to make a point not a list.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 20 2009 15:43 Bearigator wrote:
Oh Christ, don't let this thread become a "How come you didn't mention this game" thread. He was trying to make a point not a list.
The thing is, it's relevant. His point is based on the premise that he understands the "traditional RPG". This premise, however, is not supported by his statements. He mentioned the Final Fantasy series, which is a JRPG, only half the picture (and given the questionable quality of recent Final Fantasy games when compared to newer staples of the genre like the Shin Megami Tensei series, not even a good characterization of that half). He mentions the Elder Scrolls series, which, quite frankly, is a crappy characterization of western RPGs. Oblivion was bad. Morrowind was good, but in terms of design philosophy, a step backward from Daggerfall (e.g. if they made a Daggerfall-like game with modern technology, it would be phenomenal--the random generation of content would exceed even Spore, and have the gameplay to back it up).
The OP has characterized 2 extremes that don't characterize the entire genre. Gamers who swear by the Interplay trifecta: Fallout/Baldur's Gate/Planescape, often aren't really excited about either extreme. Arguably, those two extremes suffer because they aren't built around solid premises. Personally, I feel that the JRPG as a concept is flawed: it can't present a story in the fluid manner of a book, movie, or even the closest medium, a visual novel. And without deep combat mechanics, character development, or choices and consequences, there's nothing beyond a story with flawed delivery to add to the experience. By contrast, the open-world concept has a perfectly fine premise, but is flawed in execution: the only major studio that has tried it is Bethesda, and their attempts at it are half-assed at best.
The section of RPGs that the OP has neglected is the real "traditional" RPG. It is the type of RPG brought together by Ultima, Might and Magic, Fallout, Baldur's Gate, etc. It is the character-driven western RPG: it does what the OP complained is lacking in both the JRPG and the "open-world" RPG--it presents a story, and then gives you the domain to develop a character. It keeps you on rails just enough to keep the story in the foreground, but it gives you enough freedom to truly develop your character and the interactions with those around him.
In regards to the issue of how the industry has developed, this is happening throughout the entire gaming industry. And you know what? It's happened before. Books. Movies. Comics. Music. I've said this again and again. As entertainment media enter the mainstream, the original fans of the medium are marginalized, because in order to be mass-marketable, companies need to abandon some of the values which the original core customers hold dear. And you know what? People deal with it. We have independent films, writing, music, etc. Some people sell out to the new stuff. Some people stick with the old, exploring abandonware they never got to try when they're younger. And some people move into independent media, which, as far as RPGs go, is flourishing. Dwarf Fortress does the open-world better than any game before. Eschalon Book 1 and Knights of the Chalice fill the void left by Fallout and Baldur's Gate. And occasionally, the mainstream still produces something amazing, like VtM: Bloodlines, or NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer.
tl;dr, the RPG "experience" has not changed. It's been marginalized by a profit-seeking industry, but as with the experience in other venues of entertainment, the old way of doing things is certainly alive and well.
EDIT: lol Boblion why do we always jump on these RPG threads?
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Games are just getting "too good". Say, RTS being in full 3d and having no macro at all; MMOs going from UO "everything goes" to casual-friendly carebearland WoW; or RPGs getting unneccesarily overloaded with features OR being too simple. The decision developers today make often seem to be influenced by questions like "Is it easy enough so literally everybody can play through it without any trouble?", "What is the standard of the genre and what little things do I add to stand out?", or simply "What sells?".
If people would stop thinking about commercial success for once and instead focus on making a great game, we'd get the entertainment we want and they'd get the $$ because they actually made something that's worth buying.
If you'd ask me if I prefer Lufia 2 or Dragon Age, Dark Age of Camelot or (insert random new WoW clone), SC or C&C RA3, Mario Kart 64 or whatever of the thousand NFS the newest is?
It's always the older game. It seems like the fun-factor is getting sacrificed for the sake of living up to standards. You don't need games in shiny graphics, half-naked women or suggestive scenes, easy to understand mechanics or a game that holds you by the hand and doesn't allow you to make mistakes, but rather a good concept and a challenge for the player to get good enough to beat the game.
It isn't just RPGs that are suffering if you ask me.
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being perfectly honest you stated FF8 was the first rpg you played that gripped you, you skimmed through FF7 and you are well versed in rpgs ...
let's be honest you aren't well versed, you can't possibly be. also mw2 is not an rpg in any way shape or form, i assume you are talking about fallout 3
FF7 is still great and let me clarify something, no rpg since FF7 has come close to it, all the rpgs that contend with FF7 for a spot on the top are all older, and for good reason. rpg quality dropped drastically after FF7.
FF8 was still good FF9 was half decent FF10 was a bit disappointing FF12 was garbage
now let's look at why, well FF8 didn't really revolutionize anything, it didn't give you a brand new experience, and although the plot was well written it simply wasn't unique. and i have a small quip in regards to the music in FF8 i think they really could have done a better job.
but forget all that, let me regard you and why ( i believe) you feel this way toward ff8 and ff7.
FF8 is better than anything that came out after it, and by quite a margin.
the reasons you do not seem to attach yourself to FF7 the same way you do when you play FF8 are: first you are attached to ff8 due to it effectively being the one that introduced you into the rpg genre, and that is natural. Second since you played ff8 first and invested your self emotionally into it, the fact taht FF7 came out before it becomes irrelevant to you, in your timeline FF7 was after FF8 emotionally speaking, and what FF8 did was take A LOT of what was good in FF7 and regurgitate it, so to you it feels like a lot of what you see in FF7 you have seen and felt before. Third splitting game time with a friend on an rpg, and basically spoiling all the great experiences by not becoming invested on what the next turn of the page is really puts a huge damper on the experience. + Show Spoiler [do not read if you really didn't…] +one of the most emotionally heart wrenching scenes in an rpg to this day is when Aeris dies at the hands of sephiroth.
I will however say you should restart and give it an actual go, don't half ass it, literally take 2 days off of whatever life you have and invest it into this rpg, not in a critical mind, but openly seeing and feeling everything they go through, from beginning to end.
FF7 was not the first rpg i played or loved, but it is certainly one i place at the top or near it.
On December 20 2009 16:21 Elaeli wrote:
Games are just getting "too good". Say, RTS being in full 3d and having no macro at all; MMOs going from UO "everything goes" to casual-friendly carebearland WoW; or RPGs getting unneccesarily overloaded with features OR being too simple. The decision developers today make often seem to be influenced by questions like "Is it easy enough so literally everybody can play through it without any trouble?", "What is the standard of the genre and what little things do I add to stand out?", or simply "What sells?".
If people would stop thinking about commercial success for once and instead focus on making a great game, we'd get the entertainment we want and they'd get the $$ because they actually made something that's worth buying.
If you'd ask me if I prefer Lufia 2 or Dragon Age, Dark Age of Camelot or (insert random new WoW clone), SC or C&C RA3, Mario Kart 64 or whatever of the thousand NFS the newest is?
It's always the older game. It seems like the fun-factor is getting sacrificed for the sake of living up to standards. You don't need games in shiny graphics, half-naked women or suggestive scenes, easy to understand mechanics or a game that holds you by the hand and doesn't allow you to make mistakes, but rather a good concept and a challenge for the player to get good enough to beat the game.
It isn't just RPGs that are suffering if you ask me.
it's not that they are trying to live UP to standards, because every game you mentioned lived up to, and surpassed all the previous standards be it in graphics, game play, story, etc whatever it was it needed to be.
in a lot of games you have people not sacrificing to meet standards they simply believe that graphics and special effects are now an end, not a means to reach an end.
graphics are supposed to immerse you, they are a tool to make the story much easier to enter, not the reason you slap a story on there to show off. And this has crossed over to movies as well.
for once i would love for an game ( preferably an rpg) to be made now with all the knickknacks we have available, BUT with an amazing writer and a huge emphasis on telling a story.
Here's to hoping FF13 doesn't twist the knife in my heart.
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Hmm. Odd. I'm playin ar tonelico again.
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"Off course" FF7 was polished! Actually, I just had to say it. I know that's not what you mean by polished, so don't take that too seriously.
But one thing...you do realize that there's a whole subgenre of tactical RPGs of which FF Tactics is a part, right? e.g. Fire Emblem, Shining Force, Disgaea, etc.? That they all are gameplay-based to the extent of FFT, and even more in many cases? Why bring FFT up if we're talking about the games not in the subgenre? I guess there's no point in bringing up dungeon crawler RPGs, because you get the point already.
To be honest though, I'm an RPG fan but I don't particularly like the role-playing or plot-watching aspect. I like the games that are gameplay-oriented without being focused on grinding or other repetitive tasks, and aren't too easy. If a game's main fault is that it's too easy, it'll still get great reviews--in fact, it might even improve the scores. However, if a game is too difficult (rare), it'll hardly get good reviews or sales. So the safe and logical play is to make RPGs that will not frustrate almost all players, which ends up being easy or too easy for many players.
From my perspective, though, there have been good games since FF7 or FF6 or whatever doomsday cutoff period some people set.
If you want jRPGs that are story-focused in the extreme, play the Xenosaga games.
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Perhaps I am naive reliving RPGs of days past expecting a rich story with high quality writing.
I guess that is the answer. The stories don't get worse, you're just growing up~
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On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:
it's not that they are trying to live UP to standards, because every game you mentioned lived up to, and surpassed all the previous standards be it in graphics, game play, story, etc whatever it was it needed to be.
With standards I don't mean taking how good the graphics are / how many skills there are / size of the files or similar "measurements", but rather "what you expect from a game of this genre".
For BG-style RPGs this would be something like romance dialogues, influence ratio on partymembers, random encounters while traveling, having "Haste" and "Grease" as a spell, Bastard Sword +1, etc. You all expected that when you heard of Dragon Age being BG's spiritual successor. It would be unthinkable to NOT include this.
And instead of simply "creating a game", developers rather take those standards and add a little bit on top of it, calling it a better game than those that were there before (which is true to a certain degree, except that the charm of the original, where things weren't yet considered "standard", is lost). It's just a copy.
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I would like to know how many posts Boblion has where he types the words "Baldur" or "Planescape"
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On December 20 2009 21:08 Ganfei wrote:
I would like to know how many posts Boblion has where he types the words "Baldur" or "Planescape"
I would like to know how many many posts Ganfei has where he types the words "Incontrol" or "ban".
Tbh i think that Planescape and Baldur are mandatory in "Games that you have to play" or "Best rpg" threads so i have probably a couple of posts about it since this kind of thread are often made in the blog section.
Now lets know how many times "starcraft" is mentioned on this forum.
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On December 20 2009 21:08 Ganfei wrote:
I would like to know how many posts Boblion has where he types the words "Baldur" or "Planescape"
The man has good taste.
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On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:... Third splitting game time with a friend on an rpg, and basically spoiling all the great experiences by not becoming invested on what the next turn of the page is really puts a huge damper on the experience. + Show Spoiler [do not read if you really didn't…] +one of the most emotionally heart wrenching scenes in an rpg to this day is when Aeris dies at the hands of sephiroth. ...
+ Show Spoiler [about the spoiler] +Actually at this point I was so fed up with aeris' bitching I actually was really happy when she died, I was really was worried about losing all the materia she had on her though.
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Perhaps I won't add much to the discussion after TheYango summed it all up nicely but I would like to rant about the OP a bit too.
The OP is talking all over about his RPG "experience" while apparently not really familiar with the genre at all. He is familiar with half of the FF series (there were FF 1-6 you know), TES IV: Oblivion and goes even as far as calling MW2 an RPG.
Let's start with the last one. OP claims that it's a recent trend to introduce shooter games with RPG elements. If this was based solely on the First Person Perspective then we should go as far as Eye of the Beholder which was released in 1990, then through Might and Magic III: Isles of Terra in 1991 and Ishar series started in 1992 to Might and Magic IX in 2002. We can't also forget titles like Gothic and TES series.
If it was based on the shooter aspect then we would have to go through System Shock series which started in 1994 all the way through Dark Corners of the Earth, Bioshock and Dead Space which have much more in common with RPG than MW2.
By then we would discover that shooter/RPG games can't really be called a "recent trend".
Now the failure of mentioning the "staple" RPG titles in video game industry like Baldur's Gate series, Planescape: Torment, Neverwinter Nights series, Fallout series, KotOR series or TES III: Morrowind, which was simply jawdropping when it was released, is something people who have grown up playing RPG games on a computer can not and will not forgive.
It is a lesson for the OP: if you're going to talk about something, at least do your homework so you know what you are talking about. Before you start bashing the "western" RPGs (which in my opinion beat JRPG in every possible way) the least you could do is look around and try out some of the major titles in the genre.
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On December 20 2009 22:39 lingallin wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:... Third splitting game time with a friend on an rpg, and basically spoiling all the great experiences by not becoming invested on what the next turn of the page is really puts a huge damper on the experience. + Show Spoiler [do not read if you really didn't…] +one of the most emotionally heart wrenching scenes in an rpg to this day is when Aeris dies at the hands of sephiroth. ... + Show Spoiler [about the spoiler] +Actually at this point I was so fed up with aeris' bitching I actually was really happy when she died, I was really was worried about losing all the materia she had on her though.
hahaha materialist gamers the breed of FF6 loot i tell you i want loot
jk of course.
one thing to note i seem to be one of the few people who loved aeris as a character and found her much more intriguing than tifa,
+ Show Spoiler +and i was really pissed about the leveling time i had lost using afterwards though, in my mind there was no possible way they could let me invest so much into her, and have her built just like other characters in terms of potential, and even spent the next 2-3 hours of game time wondering when she was coming back through some dramatic revival or SOMETHING. alas it was not meant to be
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The declining 'RPG Experience' is the result of thick nostalgia goggles.
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all. As for the Japanese RPGs on the list, they're repetitive and grindy.
Planescape: Torment is the only old gem that really continues to shine, because that game was basically good based entirely on its mind-blowing story and not on its combat system (which is awful). Morrowind also keeps a bit of its magic thanks to the amazing atmosphere the game had because of its exotic and fantastic setting (Oblivion was so vanilla fantasy in comparison).
RPGs aren't getting worse, you're just getting older. You've seen it all before. Hit the enemy until it dies and cast healing spells when you get low on health.
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On December 20 2009 19:27 Elaeli wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2009 16:55 Etherone wrote:
it's not that they are trying to live UP to standards, because every game you mentioned lived up to, and surpassed all the previous standards be it in graphics, game play, story, etc whatever it was it needed to be. With standards I don't mean taking how good the graphics are / how many skills there are / size of the files or similar "measurements", but rather "what you expect from a game of this genre". For BG-style RPGs this would be something like romance dialogues, influence ratio on partymembers, random encounters while traveling, having "Haste" and "Grease" as a spell, Bastard Sword +1, etc. You all expected that when you heard of Dragon Age being BG's spiritual successor. It would be unthinkable to NOT include this. And instead of simply "creating a game", developers rather take those standards and add a little bit on top of it, calling it a better game than those that were there before (which is true to a certain degree, except that the charm of the original, where things weren't yet considered "standard", is lost). It's just a copy.
it is simply being money grubbing half assers that produces these "let's remake the same game with better graphics and technically change the setting"
Logically speaking you could take the baulder's gate rule set, game style, lore base, item list, refine and deepen it, but ultimately use it and cut the time you spend working on the nitty gritty stuff like thinking up weaponry, skills, spells, balance, etc and with the time cut spend AS MUCH TIME on the story, a NEW story, with original implications, a different sort of emotional roller coaster.
but yes now i see your point in they try to reach up to the standard and then just half ass it till it
reaches shelves.
On December 21 2009 00:01 Hinanawi wrote:
The declining 'RPG Experience' is the result of thick nostalgia goggles.
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all. As for the Japanese RPGs on the list, they're repetitive and grindy.
Planescape: Torment is the only old gem that really continues to shine, because that game was basically good based entirely on its mind-blowing story and not on its combat system (which is awful). Morrowind also keeps a bit of its magic thanks to the amazing atmosphere the game had because of its exotic and fantastic setting (Oblivion was so vanilla fantasy in comparison).
RPGs aren't getting worse, you're just getting older. You've seen it all before. Hit the enemy until it dies and cast healing spells when you get low on health.
i disagree planescape: torment is a gem because it was an amazing rpg, not because it was replayable, i played through torment once, and never wanted to play through it again.
FF7 was amazing also because of the story, and if a played it again now i would still know that this is an amazing rpg, regardless of what i critique now, because of what it accomplished the first time around.
baldur's gate same thing.
each offered a different story, different character depths, different perspectives on whatever it was they were portraying, and each one is GREAT.
of course there are rpgs that were good the first time around due solely on the wonderful giddy omg this is an rpg feeling, one of my all time nostalgia related favorites is breath of fire. I LOVE breath of fire, and say it's a good rpg, however i do not stack it up with the three mentioned, or even a few others, simply because there is a difference between the two.
i would like the opinion of some tlers on a particular game ( if they played it) and that's Phantasy Star 3 i cannot decide if the game is genuinely really good, or it's nostalgia.
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What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/
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On December 20 2009 15:41 L wrote:
Eh. Talking about RPGs without mentioning the ultima games?
Who the hell cares about baldur's gate when you can be THE AVATAR.
this game made me insane when i was 14.
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On December 21 2009 00:07 Nebula wrote:
What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/
I'm kind of surprised to hear that, there are only so many times you can have fun abusing the combat system (see: the Kensai class) and trying different combos before it gets extremely boring. The story in BG2 was good, but nothing spectacular, either. It was amazing for its time, but I can't imagine why anyone would replay it regularly. Arcanum is even worse...unless you cheesed your way through the game with Harm the first time and want to use tech on your second playthrough for an actual challenge, it doesn't really have that much replay value either.
Honestly, the last time an RPG really impressed me was NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. I was expecting something really mediocre after playing NWN2, and was suddenly blown away by a game that sucked me in and really made me want to see what would happen next.
+ Show Spoiler +
The ending was terrible, though. They build you up to get excited about tearing down the Wall of the Faithless, your place in the Second Crusade, all this amazing background coming together...and then your character just says "Fuck it" and goes home. I hear that it was because Wizards of the Coast told the writers "AH-AH-AH, CAN'T LET YOU DO THAT WITH OUR SETTING" when they wanted to let the player tear down the wall. It's a real shame, and it ruined what could have been an amazing climax to the story.
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On December 21 2009 00:17 Hinanawi wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 00:07 Nebula wrote:
What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/ I'm kind of surprised to hear that, there are only so many times you can have fun abusing the combat system (see: the Kensai class) and trying different combos before it gets extremely boring. The story in BG2 was good, but nothing spectacular, either. It was amazing for its time, but I can't imagine why anyone would replay it regularly.
Or you could play the game through NORMALLY and not try and abuse the combat system? Like... say... not play the same class over and over again? Plus, there are tons of mods out there that change the combat system/quests.
Sure, it may not be your cup of tea, but realize that you're posting this in a Starcraft forum, a game released in 1998.
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On December 21 2009 00:25 goldrush wrote:Show nested quote +On December 21 2009 00:17 Hinanawi wrote:On December 21 2009 00:07 Nebula wrote:
What the hell? I play through bg2/arcanum at least once a year and it's great everytime. I think bg2 has aged REALLY well. =/ I'm kind of surprised to hear that, there are only so many times you can have fun abusing the combat system (see: the Kensai class) and trying different combos before it gets extremely boring. The story in BG2 was good, but nothing spectacular, either. It was amazing for its time, but I can't imagine why anyone would replay it regularly. Or you could play the game through NORMALLY and not try and abuse the combat system? Like... say... not play the same class over and over again? Plus, there are tons of mods out there that change the combat system/quests. Sure, it may not be your cup of tea, but realize that you're posting this in a Starcraft forum, a game released in 1998.
All I did was offer my opinion - I loved BG2 back in the day, but I don't see how it has any lasting replay value today. If you can still get entertainment out of it, more power to you. To me it seems like one of those "you had to be there" games.
If someone told me they were a total noob to RPGs and they wanted to try some somewhat older games, I would tell them to check out Planescape: Torment, Morrowind, and Fallout 2. If they asked about BG2, I would probably say "Yeah, that game was awesome...but you kind of had to be there."
'There' meaning the year 2001. But hey, that's just my opinion.
Speaking of timeless games, Deus Ex. Ten years from now I'll still be telling people who have never played it to play it.
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Tales Series. Seriously, are there no Tales players?
Guess I gotta play FF7 now to understand why everyone thinks it is so good, but from all I know about it, Tales > FF anytime (yes this is my personal opinion).
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This thread really wants me to play some old games...
I never played Planescape:Torment, back when it was released I used to buy 2 different pc magazines, one said it was great, one said it was pretty good but only gave it like a seventysomething rating so I never bought it.
Never played through Deus ex either, I just remember playing through the demo and not enjoying it that much but it wasnt enough to judge the game.
I wish I had as much spare time now as I had back then..
oh Btw. @OP I really disagree about the "polish" part.. that is not a sign of a great game.
The German version of fallout for example the synchronisation fucking sucked, every sentence not even close to being grammatically correct, but it was obviously a great game.
Also the gothic games are known for being ridiculously buggy at release but they are also good games.
I agree about one thing though.. to really have the kind of RPG experience I used to have, where I really got sucked into the world, I'd have to be a kid again, even if the game is great, I have changed and things dont impress me like they used to :/
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On December 21 2009 00:01 Hinanawi wrote:
The declining 'RPG Experience' is the result of thick nostalgia goggles.
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all.
I loled. Could have been a good troll though.
BG modded is still the best all around rpg imo ( or at least one of the best ).
Give me an rpg who has:
- better gfx ( you will find some recent games that's sure )
- better story ( yea i know Torment but then mmm ... not many )
- better gameplay ( gl fiding something better than BG modded with SCS, i don't have played every rpg since BG but still i don't think there are many games better gameplay wise )
- more lenght ( uh none ? )
- the same replayability.
You won't find a game better in all this categories
If you find one give me the name asap plz.
And no it isn't only nostalgia. This game doesn't have any big flaws and is still pretty good in every aspect.
However you are a Dx fan so you are forgiven :p
edit: i don't play a lot Rpg nowadays but my last good experience was the Nameless Mod for Dx. Really awesome for a mod.
On December 20 2009 16:16 TheYango wrote:
EDIT: lol Boblion why do we always jump on these RPG threads?
Because i'm always eager to read your posts 
You write the kind of posts that i would like to make. But because my English isn't good enough i can't.
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apparently Lufia II is being remade on DS, but into an action RPG.. Im very interested, Lufia is the best RPG series not named Chrono.
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On December 21 2009 01:56 Skyze wrote:
apparently Lufia II is being remade on DS, but into an action RPG.. Im very interested, Lufia is the best RPG series not named Chrono.
Lufia 1 / 2 and to some extent 3 are great games, no doubt, but Lufia 4 is bad. I've played through each of them (except for #4) several times, but I wouldn't say they are better than games like Tales of Phantasia, Secret of Mana, Seikendensetsu3, Bahamut Lagoon and Chrono Trigger. All of these have some unique features to them, so it's hard to compare them even though they all were for the SNES, but I certainly wouldn't say that Lufia is better than for example Tales of Phantasia.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2009 00:01 Hinanawi wrote:
Some of my first (and favorite) RPGs were Final Fantasy 6 (3 at the time), Baldur's Gate 2, Arcanum, Legend of Legaia, Might and Magic (6 and 7) and Vandal Hearts. You know what? Those games are BAD now. I know it's heresy to say, but they are. Have you tried replaying BG2 or Arcanum lately? They're just horrible, they haven't aged well at all. As for the Japanese RPGs on the list, they're repetitive and grindy.
Baldur's Gate II is not terribly replayable out of the box, but the mod community has breathed at least 2-3 more playthroughs into it through all the added content. As far as the general experience, Boblion has summed up what makes it great. The graphics are good in the way Starcraft's are good. They're not driven by advanced 3D game engines, but by the actual artistic elements--they're functional, and have good design and composition. The story is unique in it's own little way-it's a soul-searching experience, but in the sense that your character is literally looking for someone who's stolen his soul. It's enhanced by the choices you make with real consequences along the way. The gameplay is unmatched, and most certainly does *not* require cheese to get through (even with SCS, though Tactics is a completely different ballgame).
There's one other thing I have to add: the Baldur's Gate shines in one aspect that often gets neglected--character interaction. The characters in BG2 are well done. They've been given way more lines and responses than the paltry few that get seen in RPGs today. You know how many recruitable NPCs there were in BG1? Twenty-five. All with reasonably fleshed out backstory, and some unique interactions (e.g. when the Harpers and Zhentarim find each other out, they break out in combat to the death). No game since can possibly match that. BG2 doesn't meet that number, but it exceeds the characters of BG1 by adding in banters, as well as deeper explorations of each character.
Might and Magic 6 & 7 are bad now, but you know what? They were mediocre when they came out. IMO M&M 3/4/5, the real gems of the series, have held up (graphics are a bit dated, but are still better than most handhelds, and the gameplay is still nice).
If you're playing Arcanum for the combat, you're doing it wrong. For one, ANY playthrough of Arcanum should not be based on a combat-based character. The combat system is not that solid--and focusing on it is a good way to get burned out before you get to the real meat of the game. The game is more dependent on your conversational stats than Planescape, but is a completely different style. It's probably the closest thing to the "open-world" RPG done correctly. It rubs some people the wrong way though, because as someone once told me "other games put you as a character in a story--in Arcanum, you ARE the story."+ Show Spoiler +For example, some people get mad finding out that guy in the first town you visit that asks for the ring is a phony. They'll say something along the lines of "How was I supposed to know that I'm not supposed to do that?" There is no "not supposed to" with Arcanum. The story goes on. It's just that the crook that steals the ring turns an entirely new twist on it.
As far as the JRPGs go, I've said how I believe that JRPG's stand on a flawed concept on the first page. Most of them simply don't use the interactivity of a game in a way that benefits the storytelling experience. This has been true of the genre since the beginning.
On December 21 2009 00:17 Hinanawi wrote:
Honestly, the last time an RPG really impressed me was NWN2: Mask of the Betrayer. I was expecting something really mediocre after playing NWN2, and was suddenly blown away by a game that sucked me in and really made me want to see what would happen next.
MotB is probably the best story-driven RPG of the last 5 years. I would venture to say it's the best-written RPG since Planescape. Of course, Chris Avellone certainly met his expectations on it, and the fact that he's still true to his Interplay roots makes me excited for Alpha Protocol.
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On December 21 2009 02:38 TheYango wrote:
As far as the JRPGs go, I've said how I believe that JRPG's stand on a flawed concept on the first page. Most of them simply don't use the interactivity of a game in a way that benefits the storytelling experience.
You forgot to add that most JRPGs (all of them that I've seen so far but I haven't seen many so I don't want to put the word "all" before JRPGs) are more of a "grow your character(s)" kind of game than a true RPG.
The formula of "You can have a bazillion levels, train your character in a bazillion possible ways and some more and then you have a gazillion items which you can tinker with in a bazillion ways" is cool but not really necessary as you begin to worry way too much about your character and its progression than the plot/conversations/nuances that make for a good RPG.
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It reminds me too much of animes too #_#
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The reason I had less than a total experience with FF7 was because I was like 7 years old, coupled with the fact that I split time with my cousin. I wrote a fair number of words, if I had written about all the other great RPGs out there this blog would have been insanely long. You are allowed to write an article about a topic and not include EVERYTHING about it. I used the few games I did as examples in my changing RPG experience. Yes, I did use two extremes, I felt they suited the experience of a gamer playing RPGs that are on the popular side of the spectrum. This is why I enjoy polish in a game so much because I expect it from games put out by major houses.
I did not write this to say, "Hey look, I know absolutely everything about RPGs that there is to know." I ask those who read to think about how their experiences with these games have changed since they were younger.
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if u haven't played Chrono Trigger, do it now, easily one of the best RPGs ever.
FF8 sucks, just putting it out there
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On December 21 2009 05:31 sharkeyanti wrote:
The reason I had less than a total experience with FF7 was because I was like 7 years old, coupled with the fact that I split time with my cousin. I wrote a fair number of words, if I had written about all the other great RPGs out there this blog would have been insanely long. You are allowed to write an article about a topic and not include EVERYTHING about it. I used the few games I did as examples in my changing RPG experience. Yes, I did use two extremes, I felt they suited the experience of a gamer playing RPGs that are on the popular side of the spectrum. This is why I enjoy polish in a game so much because I expect it from games put out by major houses.
I did not write this to say, "Hey look, I know absolutely everything about RPGs that there is to know." I ask those who read to think about how their experiences with these games have changed since they were younger.
I do understand you. The problem is, however, that you wrote about 2 extremes and for the most part chosen games most people do not associate with RPG in a strict sense. I don't think many people who saw the thread title were thinking about FF and, in fact, most of them automatically thought about BG etc. and turned out disappointed after reading your lengthy post.
What you did was not catering to the target audience in a right way. Similar to writing about RTS experience on this forums and including only WC3 and Age of Empires, nerdrage assured.
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United States47024 Posts
On December 21 2009 07:06 Manit0u wrote:
I do understand you. The problem is, however, that you wrote about 2 extremes and for the most part chosen games most people do not associate with RPG in a strict sense. I don't think many people who saw the thread title were thinking about FF and, in fact, most of them automatically thought about BG etc. and turned out disappointed after reading your lengthy post.
What you did was not catering to the target audience in a right way. Similar to writing about RTS experience on this forums and including only WC3 and Age of Empires, nerdrage assured.
Exactly. As I said on the first page, neither of the games you presented characterize a good bulk of the opinion on RPGs (I'd say there's about a 50/50 split between people calling JRPGs "real" RPGs, and I think the fraction of people who would think Oblivion is a good exemplar of CRPGs is much smaller than that).
All of these subgenres provide a very *different* experience because they focus on developing different aspects of the experience. And depending on which subgenre you look at, you get very different views on the RPG experience. JRPGs, for example, are driven almost solely by the story. The characters aren't shaped by the character's own choices. Guess what? As you get older, you get exposed to better writing and literature. Naturally, what seemed like a good story and good writing when you were 7-8 doesn't feel so good when you're in your late teens-early twenties. Similarly, while Oblivion might appeal to the short attention-span of a younger gamer and make the options available seem unlimited and deep, the flimsy imitation falls apart when you realize that most of the dialogue is poorly written, individual quests, while numerous, are still fairly linear, and in general, the way the world works has some glaring holes.
The traditional western CRPG provides a happy medium. Despite what the OP has said to the contrary, it is possible to create a mature, intelligent, artistic, and philosopical experience within the medium of an RPG (this blog post is one of my favorites to link to those who haven't played the original Fallout games, and I find it strangely appropriate here). The traditional CRPG provides the best means to do this--giving the player enough control to really shape the events in the world (and thereby taking advantage of the interactivity of the medium instead of just being a movie with combat between scenes), without providing too daunting a task for the developer--only Tarn Adams, the creater of Dwarf Fortress, has the apparent dedication to creating a true open world. To your credit, market saturation has hurt them just as much as every other subgenre, but at the same time, it has enough independent support to keep itself alive even if it's all but dead in the mainstream.
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On December 21 2009 07:44 TheYango wrote:The traditional western CRPG provides a happy medium. Despite what the OP has said to the contrary, it is possible to create a mature, intelligent, artistic, and philosopical experience within the medium of an RPG ( this blog post is one of my favorites to link to those who haven't played the original Fallout games, and I find it strangely appropriate here).
Thanks for sharing. Not only this blog post but also the replies to it and links within it made for a really good read.
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EPT
