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Belgium6776 Posts
EDIT:
ok here's the whole question, shouldve done this right away lol
Ok so take a look at the periodic table
Our task was to redesign it or use the data in some way to find a creative 'application' of the periodic table.
I'm working together with a friend on this one. We're gonna make 2 versions: One that explains the way atoms are constructed etc. in a very visual and basic way.
The other one, which I'm working on right now, is a version that is intended to be used by experts. So I'm assuming these people know the periodic table and have used it inside and out. The point is to make an interactive application for labcomputers (or just computers in general). Therefor, we chose to make the shape circular. Like this, we're able to show the elements in a very logical order, since they're ordened by the amount of electrons and the orbital on which they are. When the element is selected, the information is displayed in the bars which immediately gives an overview.
The problem is: he started the shape and made it turn a certain way. If you look at the original table and then compare, you'll see that it starts from the inside out and is basically a twisted version of the table. To exclude bias, I wont mention which shape I think is right, I'll just post them:
A:
B:
Poll: A or B?
(Vote): A
(Vote): B
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(old post)
Hi
I need someone who's quite adept at handling chemistry-information and is familiar with the periodic table
Just reply here and I'll PM
I'll be online for another hour or 3
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So you mean like above AP Chem in highschool 3 years ago type mastery?
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Or currently doing chemistry HL IB?
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Belgium6776 Posts
Well yeah I'd like to have an opinion of someone who's practicing chemistry in something higher than high school right now
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Well can you just post a couple questions to see what level they are so that people who are familiar with those kind of questions can step forward instead of having everybody chim in that they have an x chemistry backround?
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Belgium6776 Posts
actually im just gonna post the question, some pics and let people decided by poll and discussion, best way lol
gimme a minute to upload
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Yeah i think that would be a better idea =)
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I'm taking P-chem right now, so unless it has to do with quantum wavefunctions, I should be around to help. Let's see what type of question we're dealing with.
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im a chemical engineer.. maybe i can help you..
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i'm doing a chem lab if that helps <.<
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Belgium6776 Posts
Updated op!
Also, any and all feedback is appreciated
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I'm a food chemist, maybe I can help you.
Edit: Go with A since clockwise to me is easier for my brain even though B is closer to the original table
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Interesting concepts, though the table is designed in a pretty logical manner already. Though if I had to choose between to two of those, I would prefer prefer A, because it's more natural for me to read in a clockwise direction.
I'd say if you wanted to go for a outward circular design, you could try to create a more space-filling spiral-esque version that corresponds to ground state orbital levels, with each ring being comprised of the elements with their valence electrons in that shell.
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It seems you might get people in here voting on aesthetics rather than function.
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I'd pick A as well, simply because clockwise is easier to read.
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In terms of accuracy, if you're just trying to recreate the table, B is the correct form. Just imagine all the letters in the first column turned upside-down, unravel it in your mind and you'll see it forms the periodic table. In the same fashion, you'll find A is backwards.
However, if accuracy is less important than readability, I would pick A, because it's more natural to read things clockwise than counter-clockwise.
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Honestly I would reverse the orientation of the circle, as in have the heavier elements on the inside rather than the outside. It might be a structural issue, given that the outside 3 rings would be more sparse than the inner 3, but I think it would be easier to go from a standard periodic table to one of that nature. The only issue I can see with this is that you have to turn the piece of paper over and over to compare elements without reading upside down.
As for the expert vs. explanatory one, I think you should stick with this circular shape for the experts, and maybe try a conical shape for the explanatory one. If I am to understand correctly, the explanatory one is supposed to be for like novices right? A cone seems to be interactive because you turn it etc.
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If you don't mind me asking, is this project going to be judged based on creative, artistic, and aesthetic methods, or on finding a form that provides improved functionality for certain applications?
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Belgium6776 Posts
Thanks for the feedback guys, keep it coming.
Keep in mind that this is being made for people who have worked countless hours with the original table already. And that there is a whole different app being made for people who dont know a thing about it.
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Belgium6776 Posts
fana: Well, the reason we put lighter elements on the inside is because this way, it gives the global shape a connection to the atom it represents. So when you've got Mg for example, you'll get it on the 3 circle from the inside, since thats where the reactive electrons on the atom of Mg are too.
And yeah this one is for experts. The explanatory one is going to be something completely different. Nothing shown here yet, still being sketched etc.
plutonium: this is an assignment on information design. im in my 3d year now, so basically everything you summed up will be looked at. Form and function must be symbiotic.
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If you're looking to design a new table for people who are already very familiar with the existing one, what you need to do is identify a function that your table will perform better for.
What it looks like your orientation of the table would be better at is for electron orbitals, because having the hydrogen and the helium on the innermost ring naturally makes sense that way.
I think you should expand and emphasis on that feature somehow, instead of it just being a flipped and rolled table.
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Belgium6776 Posts
Oh but its not only that. This is just the 'main' form of the table.
Its going to be interactive and feature data & stats through the shape of the groups I, II, III, IV, etc. when you click an element. Or immediately switch to an image of a model of the atom, animated form the main form or whatever. We're still working on that. But first we need to make up our minds about the general shape.
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If the people grading your project aren't going to be extensively familiar with the table, you should do what you need to do to get that A.
I'd think it would be pretty rad, however, if you had the table designed in a way where the "rings" of the circle were more clearly corresponding to the "rings" of the electron orbitals.
The periodic table's designed the way it is for a reason. If you don't have a specific purpose in mind to make it look like the way you're making it, it will just seems flashy and counter-intuitive.
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Belgium6776 Posts
(excuse me if some things arent clear from the start, its kinda late, im kinda baked and design ideas are generally hard to pour into words when you're in the early phases lol)
Pluto how about adding a button that switches between a view of outer electrons and a view of just the element names? I'm also thinking about adding a little box where you can just enter the short notation and it immediately opens
And I dont know exactly what you mean with your idea, perhaps you could make a sketch of what you have in mind? Not so easy to visualise other people's thoughts via internet :D
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wow, very cool...
I think there should be a small space between the noble gases and the halogens, just to make so that it makes finding the anions a tiny bit easier
- and there's really no difference between A and B, i cant see why flipping it would matter
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Belgium6776 Posts
I've been discussing with zXk3
differences are pretty much:
A is a more logical reading environment, since its clockwise, so its a nice structure to look at
B is a more logical twisted version of the original periodic table, so there is a pattern of recognition for experts (which is still our main target group) and they'll easily find their way in it
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This is sort of what I had in mind. The dashed lines just represent the rest of the table extending outwards. It would be an easy way to determine the ground state orbital configuration just by looking, instead of counting across all sorts of lanthanide groups or whatnot, memorizing P's and D's and F's.
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Belgium6776 Posts
alright cool I see, thanks for the idea, I'll discuss with my friend
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While I think that making an interactive periodic table would be useful, is it mandatory that you change its format? Because I believe the current format is the most logical, and arranged better than either of those circle options. Like is it not possible to just make it an interactive normal version? ie. with facts/orbital diagrams/oxidation states/etc. In terms of Pluto's idea, what do you with Cr and Cu? and other discrepancies. It just seems as if it would be too confusing to anyone (chemists) to alter the format since it really is organized based on number of electrons already.
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Belgium6776 Posts
While we COULD do that, its still somewhere a plus when we arrange the format in a way that is functional for the way we want to arange data (plus the shape looks pretty cool this way, so its aesthetically pleasing too imo)
The current table is indeed very well organized, but I feel we can use this shape to make it show more complex information when interactivity is added. It just seems like a more concentrated bundle of data.
We can easily add controls to manipulate how things are shown- for example we could break up the different groups with the push of a button
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Hmm, I'm not sure how the shape helps you show more complex info so I can't really comment on that. But one suggestion would be to initially have the standard periodic table, and then when someone clicks on an element to get this certain data, the table circularizes and the info pops up in the middle or however it was going to work. Thus in terms of picking an element, it is done using the normal table (so it is easy to locate), but then it changes form to display info.
Anyways, good luck with the project
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On October 20 2009 08:56 Xeofreestyler wrote:
fana: Well, the reason we put lighter elements on the inside is because this way, it gives the global shape a connection to the atom it represents. So when you've got Mg for example, you'll get it on the 3 circle from the inside, since thats where the reactive electrons on the atom of Mg are too.
And yeah this one is for experts. The explanatory one is going to be something completely different. Nothing shown here yet, still being sketched etc.
plutonium: this is an assignment on information design. im in my 3d year now, so basically everything you summed up will be looked at. Form and function must be symbiotic.
Ah, that makes sense. My b.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.elementsdatabase.com/Images/periodic_table1.gif)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Xeofreestyler/per1.png)
![[image loading]](http://www.teamliquid.net/staff/Xeofreestyler/per2.png)
![[image loading]](http://img34.imageshack.us/img34/1144/ptable.jpg)
