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I'm just kidding. I don't want to talk about match up specifics but I do want to share some thoughts about all the PvZ imba shouts lately. Setting aside all the arguments that have been rehashed over and over again one thing is clear to me: The people who are shouting imba the loudest are only hurting their own gameplay. The people who "know" that zerg has a huge advantage over protoss aren't going to put in nearly as much effort as the moderates who aren't really sure.
I played zerg years ago before this recent influx of swarm domination and had strong feelings of zerg imbalance, especially against terran. I'd focus so much on how impossible it was stop the terran deathball of m&m/tanks/vessel that my zerg play stagnated. It would almost become a self-fulfilling prophecy. I would get through early game, die to the mid game push, and mentally comfort myself knowing that it wasn't my lack of skill that made me lose but an imbalance of TvZ. When all the Z started dominating I stopped focusing on how strong the T was and started thinking about all the things that I could have done better and my gameplay drastically improved. I was using relatively the same builds, but I began to approach the match up with a new mentality.
For the sake of argument let's say that suddenly the Almighty God appears to Bisu through a burning bush and announces that indeed Zerg has a huge advantage over Protoss, silencing all ZvP imba arguments forever. Even so, the vast majority of the PvZ losses that a lot of these disgruntled T.L. Protoss users are dwelling on can be attributed to simple things such as poor micro, macro, game sense, timing, etc. It is delusional to think that you, the protoss player, are playing at a Bisu-like level and still losing. Focusing on race imbalance does nothing but waste time, create mental obstacles, and stagnate gameplay.
 
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There seems to be two different arguments going - pro level imba, and foriegn level imba. the latter of course doesn't matter because everyone sucks. pro-level imbalance is a concern though.
PvZ does appear imba if you look at the stats from this season. if you assume PvZ is fundamentally balanced, then there are only two possible sources of the imbalanced statistics; either the maps must be imbalanced, or there must not be a significant enough sample size from which the statistics are being drawn from.
You, and many zerg users, seem to be arguing that protoss users aren't trying hard enough, which is, to be quite honest, completely absurd when you look at the conditions that pro teams practice at (8+ hours practice a day).
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I'm not talking about the pro scene at all. I just mentioned pro zergs because it allowed me to overcome my mental hurdle...and I think you missed the point of my entire post.
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Focusing on race imbalance does nothing but waste time, create mental obstacles, and stagnate gameplay.
That's very true for starcraft, because right now races are so polished that maps actually affect balance more than unit stats and maps define most viable strategies (like is it possible to cheese, FE, 14CC, ZvZ BOs), but I hate it when people can't acknowledge unit imbalance in other RTS.
PvZ is not imbalanced, if you think it is, you're just not storming well enough.
or there must not be a significant enough sample size from which the statistics are being drawn from.
Of course it's not enough. The absolute minimum to claim imba is at least N=30 as in the central limit theorem, and I'm not entirely sure 30 is even enough Sometimes stat junkies say N must be at least 100. I know if you add up the leagues, you'll get more than 30 games with a pretty bad Z advantage, but I bet it will even out a lot more into the season.
I'd wait until the number of games at least doubles.
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On October 19 2009 21:19 cwjalex wrote:
I'm not talking about the pro scene at all. I just mentioned pro zergs because it allowed me to overcome my mental hurdle...and I think you missed the point of my entire post.
well if you're talking about foreign level imbalance in ZvP then yes arguing about imbalance isn't the best way to improve, I agree with you. That's what I mean about two different arguments going - it causes a lot of confusion. People should be more clear about what they're arguing.
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As long as a map can be used to reverse the balance of a matchup, the matchup isn't imbalanced. The map is. And since I can easly construct a 100% p > t or z map, I blame the maps. That doesn't change the fact the protoss has stagnated lately, and could use some innovation.
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On October 19 2009 21:22 lazz wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 21:19 cwjalex wrote:
I'm not talking about the pro scene at all. I just mentioned pro zergs because it allowed me to overcome my mental hurdle...and I think you missed the point of my entire post. well if you're talking about foreign level imbalance in ZvP then yes arguing about imbalance isn't the best way to improve, I agree with you. That's what I mean about two different arguments going - it causes a lot of confusion. People should be more clear about what they're arguing.
Seems like you still misses the point of his post.
He is not arguing wether it is imbalanced or not. He is arguing that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy.
At OP, I think you nailed it spot on. I myself had the exact same problems with terran bio ball of death and never engaged it and thereby always lost to terrans.
After some time I learned that with good micro it could easely be beaten (until some point where it just really is too big) without defilers and even without lurkers.
It seems right now, even at pro level, that players think ht snipes are imposible to stop are therefore never punishes zergs for making them. They simply try to avoid getting ht's until later in the game (just like I avoided attacking the terran ball all game long (Yes I know I'm making a comparison between me and pros)).
So it seems at least, but I might be completely wrong.
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On October 19 2009 21:16 lazz wrote:
There seems to be two different arguments going - pro level imba, and foriegn level imba. the latter of course doesn't matter because everyone sucks. pro-level imbalance is a concern though.
PvZ does appear imba if you look at the stats from this season. if you assume PvZ is fundamentally balanced, then there are only two possible sources of the imbalanced statistics; either the maps must be imbalanced, or there must not be a significant enough sample size from which the statistics are being drawn from.
You, and many zerg users, seem to be arguing that protoss users aren't trying hard enough, which is, to be quite honest, completely absurd when you look at the conditions that pro teams practice at (8+ hours practice a day).
This post pretty much sums everything up.
There are a shocking number of people complaining about imbalance at their own level of play...and I really don't think ANYONE who posts on this website plays at a high enough level where true imbalance can be observed.
However, you have to admit that P really hasn't done very much to significantly update its play in a while...Zs have improved their mechanics across the board, it seems.
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On October 19 2009 21:39 Ota Solgryn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 21:22 lazz wrote:On October 19 2009 21:19 cwjalex wrote:
I'm not talking about the pro scene at all. I just mentioned pro zergs because it allowed me to overcome my mental hurdle...and I think you missed the point of my entire post. well if you're talking about foreign level imbalance in ZvP then yes arguing about imbalance isn't the best way to improve, I agree with you. That's what I mean about two different arguments going - it causes a lot of confusion. People should be more clear about what they're arguing. Seems like you still misses the point of his post. He is not arguing wether it is imbalanced or not. He is arguing that it is a self-fulfilling prophecy. At OP, I think you nailed it spot on. I myself had the exact same problems with terran bio ball of death and never engaged it and thereby always lost to terrans. After some time I learned that with good micro it could easely be beaten (until some point where it just really is too big) without defilers and even without lurkers. It seems right now, even at pro level, that players think ht snipes are imposible to stop are therefore never punishes zergs for making them. They simply try to avoid getting ht's until later in the game (just like I avoided attacking the terran ball all game long (Yes I know I'm making a comparison between me and pros)). So it seems at least, but I might be completely wrong.
wait, what? I think you're missing the point of my post. I'm saying that people should be more clear about which argument they're making: that they're arguing pro level ZvP is imba, or foriegn level ZvP is imba. the difference is absolutely essential.
foriegn-level ZvP really doesn't matter, because both players suck and don't even come close to playing their respective races at their potential, so there's no point discussing race balance. pro level ZvP imba IS a concern, foriegn-level isn't.
and you're doing exactly what I'm saying is a concern: you're talking about ZvP imba at the foriegn level, and then you're sort of vaguely in a way twisting it and applying it to pro-level ZvP. this is exactly the sort of thing that's causing a lot of rage and trolling on the forums about ZvP imbalance. not clarifying arguments.
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Braavos36390 Posts
I changed the title of your blog post, please don't make intentionally misleading or deceptive titles just to get more views.
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9071 Posts
its really easy. To make things even again KeSPa should just release like 2 maps, one in MSL and one in OSL, where the 3 base 5 hatch hydra builds are impossible. Make the 3rd gas further away and dont put a ramp...ezpz. Zerg players are just playing by default. The problem is not protoss and reinventing protoss strategies. Its rather limiting the zerg.
ToTM did the same thing for protoss, it hasnt offered different possibilities for the zerg, it forced protoss not to play FE... Each individual league needs only one anti-zerg map. Lets see how ppl like shine, kwanro, and even calm will fare when they start a Bo3 from 0-1 by default
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you all seem to be arguing that because you could just play better to win, that the race = imba discussion is useless. Discussing whether two equal players (on effort/time put into the game as well as talent) playing different races would win or lose based on their race being balanced is an interesting discussion. Of course this balance changes depending on the equal players skill level, from newbie to pro level.
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On October 19 2009 21:58 Hot_Bid wrote:
I changed the title of your blog post, please don't make intentionally misleading or deceptive titles just to get more views.
There are plenty of Blog titles that are intentionally misleading and deceptive just to get more views...like "Goodbye Jaedong" which is even more intentionally misleading and deceptive. If you take offense to me using the word stupid then please say so. I'm kind of new here and it's hard to figure out rules when they arent being enforced consistently.
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On October 19 2009 22:01 nttea wrote:
you all seem to be arguing that because you could just play better to win, that the race = imba discussion is useless. Discussing whether two equal players (on effort/time put into the game as well as talent) playing different races would win or lose based on their race being balanced is an interesting discussion. Of course this balance changes depending on the equal players skill level, from newbie to pro level.
the discussion of imbalance is much more insightful at pro level, because
a) it's the skill level that starcraft is played professionally, aka where things actually matter
b) there are less relative skill level differences, aka a more homogenized skill level, aka people playing each other are of relatively similar skill levels because they all practice 8+ hours a day
c) the races are played closer to their true potential than, for example, foreigner level, because the players are simply better, a lot better.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On October 19 2009 22:05 cwjalex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 21:58 Hot_Bid wrote:
I changed the title of your blog post, please don't make intentionally misleading or deceptive titles just to get more views. The title that you changed it to is just as intentionally misleading and deceptive (before it was "u stupid? PvZ is so imba"). I actually tried to change it for this very reason but I couldn't figure out how to change the name of the blog title.
How is "Thoughts on PvZ" just as misleading as "u stupid? PvZ is imba"? You wrote thoughts on PvZ. That alone makes it more accurate than your other title, which was written intentionally to mislead people to click and read. Are you arguing that this is not a blog with thoughts on PvZ?
I agree it wasn't the best title name but the reasons you give are completely bogus. There are many intentionally misleading and deceptive titles of blogs that don't get changed. If you have a problem with me using the word stupid that is fine but at least say so. Don't give a bogus reason.
You argue here that the reasons I give are "bogus" because there are many intentionally misleading and deceptive titles of other blogs. This is incorrect logic, because my reason is completely legitimate -- we don't want misleading or deceptive titles. If your argument is that other blogs have misleading titles, then fine, I'll try to do better by closing more of them (or you can help by linking to them).
The fact that other some other blogs exist with misleading titles doesn't change anything about your specific title. It's like you getting a speeding ticket and telling the cop that his "reasons are bogus" because some other guy was speeding too. The fact that others do it and we miss it sometimes doesn't magically correct your error.
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ahh, u didn't let me edit fast enough, i looked real fast on the left side and saw "PvZ is imbalanced" under brood war and thought that was the changed title...i changed my post and i agree with your speeding ticket analogy...except the rules there are specifically stated. I didn't know you couldn't have a satirical blog title...I read that goodbye jaedong thread and just figured it was okay...like if i were from another planet i would think j-walking is okay cause i saw someone else do it...
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Braavos36390 Posts
On October 19 2009 22:05 cwjalex wrote:Show nested quote +On October 19 2009 21:58 Hot_Bid wrote:
I changed the title of your blog post, please don't make intentionally misleading or deceptive titles just to get more views. There are plenty of Blog titles that are intentionally misleading and deceptive just to get more views...like "Goodbye Jaedong" which is even more intentionally misleading and deceptive. If you take offense to me using the word stupid then please say so. I'm kind of new here and it's hard to figure out rules when they arent being enforced consistently.
First, the "Goodbye Jaedong" blog is actually semi-accurate. Yes, it's misleading, but there's actually a "Jaedong" leaving. In your blog, you really don't talk about imbalance, especially not in the incendiary way you titled the blog. That alone separates your blog from the one GTR made.
Second, there's a fundamental difference in the way "PVZ IMBA" threads are treated here. They are annoying. They are inflammatory. They cause flame wars. "Goodbye Jaedong" is not nearly as frustrating or annoying to deal with. Obviously, we don't want thread titles that "use" the ridiculous nature of PvZ arguments just to get views. We hate PvZ imbalance discussions as a whole. We don't want these kind of threads. If you want to post coherent thoughts about PvZ, that's fine. But putting a title like that only adds to an already annoying situation.
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Braavos36390 Posts
On October 19 2009 22:15 cwjalex wrote:
ahh, u didn't let me edit fast enough, i looked real fast on the left side and saw "PvZ is imbalanced" under brood war and thought that was the changed title...i changed my post and i agree with your speeding ticket analogy...except the rules there are specifically stated. I didn't know you couldn't have a satirical blog title...I read that goodbye jaedong thread and just figured it was okay
You can have a satirical title, the Goodbye Jaedong is a good example. We even had a ridiculous one where it was titled "ANALYSIS OF OSL" where the title was pushed so it only read "......ANAL...". But like I said, you can't lead with something like "u stupid??" or with something as inflammatory as "PvZ is imba."
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AIthough I do agree it was a crappy title, I still don't think it was bad enough that needed to be changed. It was supposed to be over the top inflammatory so that the vast majority of people will realize it's a joke...and for those that don't...my first sentence says that i'm joking...but regardless...kind of pointless at this point. You are right I chose the title to get people to click on it...it was a crappy title....new one is more accurate (but less exciting =\ ) and thats that.
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[QUOTE]On October 19 2009 22:01 nttea wrote:
you all seem to be arguing that because you could just play better to win, that the race = imba discussion is useless. QUOTE]
No, I'm arguing that focusing too much on the imbalance can bring your gameplay down...regardless of whether there is an imbalance or not.
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I'm surprised Hot_bid, that you havent pulled out your trademark quote, can't get myself to remember it exactly.
"The protoss user must realise that there is no matchup." Along those lines.
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Russian Federation1381 Posts
Protoss needs a new revolution, not easy maps. DAs, DTs, shield upgrades, scouts. Nobody is willing to try anything new, while terrans managed to implement valks, all kinds of mech and biomech and even battlecruisers, zergs drastically improved average muta micro, tactics and late game with crazy stuff like queens sometimes. It's protoss' turn now.
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9071 Posts
the whole DA talk is shit. Mid game HTs and DA are substitutes - you cant mass production both from 2 bases. Even if you like skip sair tech it takes time to research both storm and maelstrom. Someone said spells = strong , but when you are in a position to Maelstrom-or-Die a stack of mutas to safe your 3 HTs with mana in order to win, it will just become a matter of crazy ass micro to cast the spells correctly. Protoss is using the right weapons, but on these maps every pro level pvz is down to fast zealots pre-lurker timing attack on the zerg's third. If it works toss is ok, otherwise gg
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On October 19 2009 23:31 Magic84 wrote:
Protoss needs a new revolution, not easy maps. DAs, DTs, shield upgrades, scouts. Nobody is willing to try anything new, while terrans managed to implement valks, all kinds of mech and biomech and even battlecruisers, zergs drastically improved average muta micro, tactics and late game with crazy stuff like queens sometimes. It's protoss' turn now.
Go back to abusing carriers vs T and reavers vs Z ?
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i'm actually trying to formulate some sort of scout build. though unfortunately, other races need to understand that protoss has very little room to try out new things. wraiths are far superior to scouts. and scouts get raped alive by hydras..
if only they costed like 75 less minerals, then they would be feasible.
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Dark Archons would be a very nice mix-in...
I ought to fool around with them a bit more.
Wait, what about arbs? Recalling a large portion of your army into a zerg main is always deadly.
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On October 20 2009 02:11 da_head wrote:
i'm actually trying to formulate some sort of scout build. though unfortunately, other races need to understand that protoss has very little room to try out new things. wraiths are far superior to scouts. and scouts get raped alive by hydras..
if only they costed like 75 less minerals, then they would be feasible.
Scouts can work very well if you stack them. I think that G5 uses scouts really well. They're really fast once they're upgraded.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9934 Posts
same thing for bad players complaining about getting raped by koreans at like d level. your 30-100 record certainly could not be hinting at the true problem here.
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On October 19 2009 22:01 nttea wrote:
you all seem to be arguing that because you could just play better to win, that the race = imba discussion is useless.
Until you get to pro level of play, that's exactly what I think.
This is why SC is such a great game, imo. It's so well balanced that you only lose games because your opponent was better than you. You can only improve yourself to win, not blame it on game balance.
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Are you fucking serious. Can you give up and leave please?
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wow fanatacist and probe, u guys are definitely in love...following me to post back to back...it's really adorable. If you don't have anything serious to say then gtfo. And probe, it's not basically the same at all and if you think so you have reading comprehension problems..and there are plenty of people that agree with this thread.
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EPT
