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First blog post yay. :D
If one were to look at all the posts I made in the strategy section (very few, and I don't know why you'd do such a thing. -_-), you'd find that all my posts are about 2:2. I slowly stopped 1:1ing over the course of a year, and just 2:2ed, even though I lost many games due to random allies/trying to figure out what strats worked/what didn't.
So far, I learned a few things.
1. Get a Zerg ally.
2. Even without a Zerg ally, I can still win with TP team vs PZ at the D/D+ level. TP vs TZ is another story. I don't even know what to do after I get ahead with those wraiths.
3. Mechanic vs ZZ or PZ is pretty hard. It's harder than MNM/SK.
4. I don't know many of the build orders I should know. 2:2 builds are different from 1:1 builds, because you often never consider things like FEing. You're usually just pumping units/1-basing until you secure a decisive advantage, after which you can expand. There are few exceptions to this.
5. My TZvsPZ/ZZ is surprisingly good (it's surprised me in the last few days), and my TZvsTZ is surprisingly bad, even though it's one of the MU's that made me want to play 2:2. I remember seeing a 2:2 vod with mass gols+muta vs gol+muta. That seemed fun to me, since I like seeing dozens of charon boosted Hellfire missiles tear apart mutas. -_-
6. I tried playing zerg a few times. The build orders are simple, but I don't know what to do past the 3-4 minute mark. Basically, I just don't know how a zerg plays. I was even on a ZZ team and lost. I didn't know how to exploit the power of ZZ team. TT
Here is a replay.
http://repdepot.net/replay.php?id=22325
Not that I'm particularly proud of it (I am proud of it, though, since I DID win) due to the fact that they made some really unsound decisions and I also made several blunders that didn't cost me since I was pushing myself pretty hard to macro hard. Yes, I did get supply stuck to 1000 minerals. -_-
This replay does show that I figured things out/can do things that I wasn't able to do before, like attack a bunch of cannons/ht/goons/zeals at a choke with mnm+vessel and win. This is much harder against a good PZ team that goes for a contain.
I want to try to get to C-, and stay there this season, but that is hard with random allies, especially since not ALL of them can play at that level, or do so consistently.
Anyone wanna go game? :o
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So whats your main race? I recommend playing 1 race and learning some of the strats and build orders. Metal[x] has a shit load of replays of him playing mediocre and some good teams. You can slowly get an idea or grasp how some gameplay is. And of course i can try to answer any question for you in regards of strategy and gameplay for 2x2 on certain matchups.
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I play Terran 99.999% of the time. I have his rep pack, and I do spend some time watching them. I've also gotten some advice from several players, including Metal[x], among others (most coming from Noobsofwrath). I even played with Metal[x] once, but only a few games. -_-
I usually don't like asking random questions without a rep, but I think I'll ask one anyway.
TZvsTZ, is it always just gols with fastest muta possible, or are there other strats that can be reliably employed? Once, a random Zerg I played with said we failed to communicate what we were doing/thinking, which is why he lost. I did my standard 2 fact vults (I make vults continually until armory is done), then stop vults and go gols. I try to add a 3rd or even 4th fact before expoing.
He wanted me to tell him I what I was doing, because he would've been able to mass more lings (?) off of 2/3 hat. I can't remember, but what I got out of this, was that there are certain strats that TZ can use that don't only involve mass gols/mutas, then expo (so far, this seemed the most reliable to me). This guy also mentioned that with the right Z opening, the T ally can go wraith opening( ?? !), and it would be perfectly viable.
Any thoughts on this?
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I fast expand alot at the d+/d/d- level. Mostly as PP vs. TT or PP vs PT. You can get away with it then. I also do it against tz sometimes, but it can be pretty risky. But one of my favorite builds is in PP vs TT going dt's while the other p goes reaver and then just going to the same guy. People at d level can not defend against both of those.
As Z vs zp/pp i usually do overpool or some fast ling build then get another hatch, gas, and get muta often with lings also. For some reason most P's cannot defend against the 1 base muta because they do not get enough cannons or ht soon enough. Many P's at d level do not realize that dragoons are not enough, and end up just getting all their goons killed, from then on its pretty downhill for them. Expand and get mass hydra or just finish them off with your partner. In zx vs tp or tt I like to go 10 hatch 9 pool, then get 12 lings as fast as possible. Those 12 are often enough to kill a t, deception is key- can't let them see all the lings, showing them only 2 or 4 is good, make them think it is 12 hatch.
However, I don't know about any standard builds. This stuff may all be terrible at a higher level.
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options: 1 terran goes mm zerg goes 9p into 2h mass ling OR 1h muta
depends on the map and positions and other opponents openings
thats pretty hard to play so i wouldnt recommend this under ~ b- lvl
kinda cheesy one but works on high lvl too
2 terran goes whrait which only works vs zerg which go some more economic 2 hatch (before or after pool, before is suicide vs 9p on most maps) but wont do any good vs 1h muta ~ whraits will arrive when zerg has 500/600 spire or finished spire already
3 standart mech with 2 fax into expo or 4 fax goli
there arent many options because every zerg will go 9p nowerdays and follow with some fast 1h muta which counters massing vults pretty good if zerg knows how to defend
tz vs tz games are often decided in the first 5-8 minuts since alot ppl play 9 rax 9 depo nower days which puts alot of pressure on the opponent zerg since he has to add a sunken early vs 3-4 marine 8 ling go while the other zerg can go 1h muta without defense ; and i think its easier to play with zerg advantage than terran advantage since early mutas can be devastating if played well
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I didn't really know about the 9 rax 9 depot part. (Is this considered "low eco?") I really don't know anything for TZ:TZ other than 9 depot, 10 rax, 10/11 gas, then fact. Even at that, I don't know when to pull SCV's off on 11gas timing after first fact starts. I get it wrong every time, and I don't get to play many games TZ vs TZ. One of my better Z allies wanted to go P vs TZ because he didn't like the fact that he had to "play low eco/micro" in a 2:2 game (wtflol.)
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i kinda played tz tz as a terran always on low eco but very aggresiv, u have a shitty eco but u can put the zerg very behind or even win the game in the first 4 minuts when the opponent zerg keeps his lings in his base and adds his sunkens too late, but vs a very good zerg you will have a hard time dealing damage and the terran will be some 3-5 scvs ahed of you
about scvs its not that important since you will need alot more gas than in a normal tvp, i just would put them out if your eco is too shitty
whithout teamspeak or sth or an ally which knows 100% what ur doin goin 9 rax isnt very good since u have to micro perfectly with a handfull units or ur gonna lose the game
if its a no early agression tz vs tz with both terrans mirroring and zergs goin fastest muta the better team should always win i guess
so best is to get your early game strong and u can finish every game in under 10 minuts : P
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Is that how all 2x2 iccupers approach their "srs business" 2x2 games now? Low-eco, victory before 10 minutes? I remember reading a certain 2x2 related post where the OP mentioned how no one has any of the mechanics for a late-game, drawn out 2x2. -_-
It'd probably help to learn a few low-eco build orders/strats, and win a few games with them. FOR SCIENTIFIC PURPOSES.
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A wraith opening imo is only good when the zerg opponent goes 2h mass lings. As for you going wraith however, you have to be aware that the opponent terran will have gols and will mostly attempt to counter you. So if you do plan on going wraith make sure u have a bunker with about 3 rines in it and go into tank/gols. Also u only really need like 2-4 vultures at most. I usually get 3 at most before i start going gols. Never try to camp with ur vult, always be aggressive and pressure Z with awesome vulture micro  .
There are other openings as well. You can go mass m/m into mass m/m tank, while your ally goes mass zerglings. This works pretty well on open maps like Vampire where most Z's will go 1h muta. You can easily run off a 1h zerg on maps like that with mass m/m and lings. Just make sure ur macro is on par and ur ally keeps building lings for when the opponent terran comes out he will have a considerable amount of vultures or goliaths. You can fight off goliaths for a while with just mass m/m macro(like 4-5 rack m/m) but after u take the zerg out you need to work into tanks as well as maintaining your m/m.
There are other times where u can go mass vulture into slower goliaths. This will put you behind the opponent T who is most likely standard goliaths but if you get enuf vultures with your allies zerglings, you can run over a zerg pretty easily and picking off the majority of his drones slowing him down immensely, putting your ally ahead.
Some cheese strats also involve proxy 8rack, which also works well. And also take in account when proxy 8 rack, you dont HAVE TO RUSH THE ZERG. Sometimes rushing the terran is the best option. If a terran doesnt bunker after seeing proxy 8rack and you see zerg sunkening at home, id prolly rush terran. Just take in account that the zerg will more then likely counter you so try to have like your 4th rine proxy back to ur base and ur ally send back up lings.
Maps like Gaia are great for goliath drops. You can always throw in a late goliath drop with your allies muta's to run over a zerg's main. But anyways, mass gols/mutas tend to be the must favorable strategy since its so flexible and easiest to control map. But however depending on the map and how your opponents playing, some of these strats might help you out. Its good to know all of these, specially if you play the same people over and over. Its kinda like 1x1, you dont wanna do the same strat over and over, you want to mix it up and confuse ur opponents.
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Oh and yes, 2x2 is majority of the time low eco early - mid late games. For terran it is important to cut scvz. The timings for cutting scvz is hard for me to explain, it kinda just happens.. even small things like pulling scvz of gas for a minute to mine minerals can put u ahead of the terran opponent.
Late game 2x2's is just all macro imo. The main races, T and P will go like 1x1 while the zergs stay at a low eco and try to harass and support their allies with mutas an lings and shit. This is about the only time a real good 1x1 player will show some decency in 2x2
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2x2 has changed alot over the years, to the bad since muta stacking was discovered : (
tenryu explained some better than me im a bit baked *)
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I brought up the cutting of SCVs, since it actually works in part of the builds I use, like if I go 10 gas 14 rax, then the second fact ends up going down at 200/100 if I cut the scvs at the right time (I think.) I guess I should test vs a comp.
And I'm terrible at 1x1. Ohgeez. -_-
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On October 14 2009 08:05 kAra wrote:
2x2 has changed alot over the years, to the bad since muta stacking was discovered : (
tenryu explained some better than me im a bit baked *)
Lol yeah, 2x2 change drastically once muta stacking was discovered  . And yeah, u should prolly work on your 1x1 as well.. the majority of the higher rank 2x2 players i know of B+ ++ are ATLEAST B- in 1x1. Specially since ur mostly terran, your macro will result in alot of the games you play.
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I'll try getting back into 1x1. Haha.
I tried this season as soon as it started, and I got rollllled. 0 and like 20 during Korean hours. (It happened to be when I was online, so I just did it, much to my own dismay and frustration.)
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Well take into account that 1x1 and 2x2 is real different. I know when i 1x1 my early game is really good but once it hits late game i start to suck, mainly becuase im just not used to it. You should continue working on your 2x2 but from time to time, when u cant find any 2x2 games try workin on 1x1 as well. In the meantime, try to watch whatever 2x2 reps u find and just watch for when terrans do there scv cutting and how they control the map. (If you havent noticed alot of good terrans out there play real open, mainly because they trust in their zerg ally. Find a decent Z ally whos willing to train/play with you and just trust him. If the team doesnt trust in one another, your gonna have a rough time)
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1x1 is a bit frustrating for me, since I lose to semi-cheesy early-midgame shenanigans, like on Heartbreak, a Korean protoss made his TEMPLAR ARCHIVES ON MY HIGH GROUND. Just before I destroyed it, he made two DT's at home base, and sent them over. My turret timing was roughly 0.05 seconds late, as the DT murdered my SCV, and proceeded to rape everything I have. My mechanics are actually worse in 1x1 than in 2x2, probably because I don't know how to use my builds confidently.
My main issue at the moment would be finding Zergs to play with who have/claim to have C-level skills, then do stupid things in game and blame me afterward. -_-
I really just need better people (opponents included) to play with. Most of them just won't bother with me since my stats are usually bad.
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Hmm too bad i cant play sc or else id play my Z with you, i like playing 2x2Z with a not too great ally(no offence)/random allies. Its challenging and fun -_-
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Tenryu has good advice, I might post later when I have time to thoroughly read the thread but just in regards to his mention of SCV cutting being kind of intuitive, the way I think about it is this: I look at my supply, I look at my money, and I look at my depot timing. I try to always make sure I have enough supply for my next "round" of units (you should be cycling your macro all the time). If I need to cut an scv to fit my unit into the amount of pop I have, I do. If I'm at 200 minerals when I need 300 for my next set of 3 gol and I can see I take in minerals at a rate where I'll have 300 and enough pop when my current ones finish, I don't make an scv until after the gols. So basically you just need to be on your toes all the time, prioritize each cycle of units over an scv after a certain period of time, and just squeeze more scvs in when you have time. You should also learn the timings, like for example a goliath takes like 1.25 depot's build time to build. So you know when you can squeeze out an scv or not in TZ vs TZ, for example.
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I typically do this sort of thing, which is why I don't miss many macro cycles unless I was REALLY focused on a battle, but I didn't take into account something like "a goliath takes like 1.25 depot's build time to build."
:O
TY for all the advice, guys.
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EPT
