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Starcraft 2 anxieties
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intruding
157 Posts
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Foucault
Sweden2826 Posts
But I think it will be an enjoyable game, but not as competetive. But seriously, they have to release the goddamn game soon. This is soon becoming a farse | ||
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intruding
157 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On August 22 2009 21:43 intruding wrote: honestly, i'm happy to see that they're giving themselves more time to finish//polish the game. I know that the delay is officially due to battle.net problems...but it's unlikely that they won't work on the game until 2010. It gives them another full year to realize that MBS and Co's are nothing but quality-reducing-elements-needing-to-be-eradicated-from-any-blizzard-RTS-game. You're suffering from delusions if you think Blizz is getting rid of MBS and auto-mine. Those functions are here to stay, they practically built the game around it. | ||
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dhe95
United States1213 Posts
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intruding
157 Posts
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Aegraen
United States1225 Posts
On August 22 2009 22:06 intruding wrote: Explain to me the concept of having an RTS game "built around" MBS and automine. You mean like marines are killing zerglings while always having a back thought that goes a little something like "dude, im doing this for the automining feature". Fights are happening because of MBS, building trees and strategical units are there to make sure automining goes on properly? Automatisms are just obnoxious little fucking things that can be removed within the first 5 seconds of a strike of genius. Many of the other features in the game such as Warp-In is built around MBS. Do you know how frustrating it would be for protoss to use that without MBS? You would have to click on a -Gate hit the hotkey for the unit and then place the unit at the pylon power, then head back to base and repeat times however many -gates. Not feasible. Face it, many of the features of the game are built around having MBS and auto-mine, it ain't going nowhere. | ||
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d3_crescentia
United States4054 Posts
SC2 will be a different game, if only for the fact that Blizzard is placing so much emphasis on mobility. Anything else is impossible to say at this point. | ||
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lazz
Australia3119 Posts
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intruding
157 Posts
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Catch]22
Sweden2683 Posts
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Vision
United States113 Posts
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Rotodyne
United States2263 Posts
On August 22 2009 22:50 Catch]22 wrote: you dont have to MBS dude, if you want to, you can just go ahead and click every building, meanwhile, I'll be over here, enjoying the progress of techology. same here | ||
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DragoonPK
3259 Posts
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Krohm
Canada1857 Posts
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ghermination
United States2851 Posts
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RoieTRS
United States2569 Posts
On August 23 2009 00:44 Krohm wrote: Arguing about this problem is such a waste of time. I'm not even remotely sure why I'm posting this. But I just want to say it again. Blizzard will not remove MBS, or Automation. It's just not going to happen... Its a blog =/ Isn't this the place for such thoughts? | ||
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prOxi.Beater
Denmark626 Posts
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Hyde
Australia14568 Posts
On August 23 2009 01:14 ghermination wrote: TBH i used to hate the idea of MBS and automine, but now it just seems pointless, and i can see why they would be helpful. Automine is a pretty small thing, i mean most people who can't remember to send their peons to mine also can't remember to go back to their Nexus/CC/Hatchery to build more, so it seems like at the lowest levels it wouldn't change THAT much. (Although i would still prefer it to be gone because it makes the skill ceiling of the game that much higher). While MBS reduces the amount of skill required to macro dramatically, it doesn't remove it. Honestly i'm just interested to see how the game comes out. If it sucks balls, thats fine i'll stick with ICCUP. Actually I have a friend who plays casually, and seriously he watches the game more than he actually plays it, you're right he doesn't remember to go back to his command center to build more scvs in a timely fashion, and when he does remember, it is then that he sends them to mine. He normally queues up 2-3 in a row because his money piles up. With auto mining he'll reap the benefits of those scvs as soon as they pop (unlike SC1). That's a huge benefit in my eyes. I thought I'd just point that out. But I guess at his level his macro skills aren't so great either, so that extra mining time he's getting from AM won't help him much as his money will just pile up. Ok I seem to have lost the point of what my post was about...LOL fail | ||
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Astray
Canada59 Posts
After a few months of popularity, SC2 will probably fail as a spectator sport as well. | ||
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Ronald_McD
Canada807 Posts
On August 22 2009 21:29 intruding wrote: Have automatisms been designed to ensure that SC2 drifts away from a Starcraftian quality and closer and closer to a "good game" to avoid that SC2 distinguishes itself too much in an ocean of "good PC games" released each year? My palm has never hit my face so hard. YES, that's EXACTLY what they're going for. The ONLY reason they put "automatisms" in the game is to make it different from "Starcraftian" quality. Oh and don't forget to make it look like every other game. Seriously, weak. | ||
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starPride
United States142 Posts
SC2 will fail cause you can rally works and select multiple buildings and no skill required. lul | ||
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EchOne
United States2906 Posts
I'd like to note that successful marketing campaigns are marked by their ability to both differentiate and elevate the image of the product in the eyes of consumers. Conforming to competitors' images isn't inherently good or necessary unless your product is so bad it needs to meet standards before it can be portrayed as elevated. | ||
Heyoka
Katowice25012 Posts
I don't see the issue. | ||
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Clasic
Bosnia-Herzegovina1437 Posts
On August 22 2009 21:36 Foucault wrote: Well I hate the fact there is MBS and auto-mining regardless. But I think it will be an enjoyable game, but not as competetive. But seriously, they have to release the goddamn game soon. This is soon becoming a farse I can already tell its gona suck dick, I want kinda the same thing as bw, their just making it CnC | ||
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foeffa
Belgium2115 Posts
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Sharp-eYe
Canada642 Posts
On August 22 2009 21:51 dhe95 wrote: I hate the fact there's MBS. Auto-mining, not that important IMO. With MBS, you suddenly have the protoss and terran players who can hotkey all their production buildings in 1 hotkey and press one button to have units building out of all of them, which means a lot more hotkeys for units. As with zerg, you can do the same but zerg has such little production buildings compared to protoss and terran that it won't really make a difference. Artosis said in some SC2 discussion video that you will need to press Z repeatedly to create zealots. So If I want 10 zealots from 10 different gates, its going to be "5zzzzzzzzzz". Basically hand speed is the same (almost) but attention distribution being taken away as you can still keep an on your units. | ||
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Sharp-eYe
Canada642 Posts
On August 23 2009 03:20 heyoka wrote: I play games because they are fun. When a game is not fun, instead of playing it, I play a different game that has the level of fun I am interested in. I don't see the issue. The issue revolves around competetive gaming, and the e-sports industry in countries such as South Korea. Take this example: If all sprinters had rocket propelled shoes, what is the point of competing in the event. There is no point of practicing all day to be the best sprinters if everyone is wearing rocket propelled shoes... The hardwork, skill, and other factors related to competition are striped away. MBS + Automine is like the rocket propelled shoes. I hope this clarifies the issue for you ^^. I have faith in Blizzard. The original starcraft beta looked like crap. They changed what they needed to, and now look where it is. I believe all we need is the beta. They will be flooded with complaints about MBS and Automisms, and it will become non-existant in the final release. From there, they will patch the game to make it perfect. This is a gut feeling :/ | ||
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starPride
United States142 Posts
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Sharp-eYe
Canada642 Posts
On August 23 2009 04:14 starPride wrote: there will be alot of skill in sc2 for sure. mbs and automine doesnt take away skill. Why should a strategy game come down to whose better by MBS and automine. two features that should be in ANY modern day RTS. Better players will win. lesser players will lose. also south korea pretty much started starcraft competition. there will be more tourneys and competition outside of korea for sc2 by a far far margin. Espots has evolved beyond SC outside of korea to a grand scope. and is still growing. Can you just clarify as to why MBS and automine (and other other automisms): a) do not take away skill? b) must be in any modern rts game? | ||
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starPride
United States142 Posts
On August 23 2009 04:29 Sharp-eYe wrote: Can you just clarify as to why MBS and automine (and other other automisms): a) do not take away skill? b) must be in any modern rts game? There will still be much multi tasking in sc2 just because theese features are not in. Your screen can be more focused on battles then spending time on ur base. More tactics will also be in sc2 cause of armor and damage types. More emphasis is on battle strategy in sc2 then the original. And as for taking away skill. Anyone is capable of doing it through mass practice its not like some genious feature. its just a mindless action that the interfce makes you do and is progressed through practice just like aim in a FPS. and the 2 are not synonomous just examples. Its a memory muscle which is aquired through mass games. Shouldnt rts be focused on the strategy and the micro? not going to ur base and clicking m m m m m m m In my personal opinion SC2 will go beyond the original SC by far in terms of esports i believe this because e-sports is much larger since then and the player base going to SC2 will be huge. there will be tournaments everywhere and tons of sponsors. top players will be from many nations. | ||
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chas
Germany18 Posts
Face it, many of the features of the game are built around having MBS and auto-mine, it ain't going nowhere. I can see your reasoning behind MBS now, but there is no reason to keep auto-mining. Also, they could fix "your" MBS problem by simply adding an ability to some building (wherever you research warp tech, if you do research it), give the building as many charges as you have gateways, then add spells for "Summon Zealot", "Summon Stalker" and so on, then decrease the charge value by one every time you warp one in and give it a cooldown (I don't know how they handle it in SC2 right now, cooldown equal to the building time of the unit you built?), done. Unless I missed something. I play games because they are fun. When a game is not fun, instead of playing it, I play a different game that has the level of fun I am interested in. Battleforge was fun in the beginning. World in Conflict was fun in the beginning. Dawn of War 2 was fun in the beginning. Now I can't think of any of the other more recent RTS-hotshots, but none of these games have a skillcap nearly as high as SC (in WiC's case, I'm talking about your individual control obviously, since it's a team game it's hard to talk about that). Those games are fun for some time, but their micro/macro isn't challenging enough or they're figured out way too quickly, thus becoming stale, boring and "easy". Games like that can possibly sell like hell, but they won't be played for very long, which doesn't damage the developer/publisher all that much probably (unless you are talking Blizzard longevity, of course). I'd like to think Blizzard isn't thinking that way, but they are out for making money first, them making a good game is (or should be, from a business standpoint anyway) only a secondary priority. More tactics will also be in sc2 cause of armor and damage types. Have you played Warcraft 3 before? It has those mechanics you are talking about and if anyone derives from their standard build order in that game, it's a huge surprise every time. | ||
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crate
United States2474 Posts
but there is no reason to keep auto-mining If I rally my workers to a mineral patch, 100% of the time I want my workers to start mining from my mineral patch. Since there's no actual decision-making on my part, all automine does is change making workers from 2 actions spread apart (make worker, set it to mine when it's done) to 1. Same as all MBS does is reduce the number of actions you need to do to make units. Since in strategy games I'm interested in decision-making more than anything else.... Basically, if I wanted a game to challenge my mechanics for the sake of challenging my mechanics, I'd play Guitar Hero or something (an enjoyable game, but not what I want in an RTS). I don't want an RTS to force me to do extra useless non-decision-making stuff just for kicks. What if you had to type in a random 10-letter sequence when your tanks were halfway done to keep them building? That's the same idea as removing automine imo ... and it seems ludicrous from here. Does it reward a certain skill? Sure, but the skill it rewards isn't one that I want my RTSs to reward in the first place, so it actually makes the game worse. SC is not good because it lacks automine and MBS (I think SC would be better with both of those features). It's good because it very strongly rewards good decision-making. | ||
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starPride
United States142 Posts
On August 23 2009 08:02 crate wrote: If I rally my workers to a mineral patch, 100% of the time I want my workers to start mining from my mineral patch. Since there's no actual decision-making on my part, all automine does is change making workers from 2 actions spread apart (make worker, set it to mine when it's done) to 1. Same as all MBS does is reduce the number of actions you need to do to make units. Since in strategy games I'm interested in decision-making more than anything else.... Basically, if I wanted a game to challenge my mechanics for the sake of challenging my mechanics, I'd play Guitar Hero or something (an enjoyable game, but not what I want in an RTS). I don't want an RTS to force me to do extra useless non-decision-making stuff just for kicks. What if you had to type in a random 10-letter sequence when your tanks were halfway done to keep them building? That's the same idea as removing automine imo ... and it seems ludicrous from here. Does it reward a certain skill? Sure, but the skill it rewards isn't one that I want my RTSs to reward in the first place, so it actually makes the game worse. SC is not good because it lacks automine and MBS (I think SC would be better with both of those features). It's good because it very strongly rewards good decision-making. I agree with this and i also propose no more MBS and automine discussion. It really does bring out the worst in the forum, as it says in the sc2 post guidelines. We can't really judge how SC would be without those features and how it will be in the future. But i am more then certain the better player will always win. Hell even in sc ret took a map off nada, and nadas mechanics >>>>>> ret | ||
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phoner
Andorra8 Posts
On August 23 2009 04:10 Sharp-eYe wrote: The issue revolves around competetive gaming, and the e-sports industry in countries such as South Korea. Take this example: If all sprinters had rocket propelled shoes, what is the point of competing in the event. There is no point of practicing all day to be the best sprinters if everyone is wearing rocket propelled shoes... The hardwork, skill, and other factors related to competition are striped away. MBS + Automine is like the rocket propelled shoes. I hope this clarifies the issue for you ^^. I have faith in Blizzard. The original starcraft beta looked like crap. They changed what they needed to, and now look where it is. I believe all we need is the beta. They will be flooded with complaints about MBS and Automisms, and it will become non-existant in the final release. From there, they will patch the game to make it perfect. This is a gut feeling :/ lmao they are going to be flooded by 100 players who like to click a lot? | ||
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arb
Noobville17921 Posts
On August 23 2009 01:50 Astray wrote: WC3 failed as a spectator sport in South Korea. After a few months of popularity, SC2 will probably fail as a spectator sport as well. I really hope it does so SC can still be played by everyone. | ||
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starPride
United States142 Posts
On August 23 2009 09:41 arb wrote: I really hope it does so SC can still be played by everyone. so UMS and automine and better graphics = worse spectator sport. kk just checking | ||
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intruding
157 Posts
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crate
United States2474 Posts
Also...people here are happy to claim that SC2 will still be a great, skilled game even with automining//MBS included and therefore they seem to be in favor of letting them in the game Yet you guys are all completely missing the point. I'm not disputing that automatisms won't kill the competition aspect of SC2 entirely. Yes, SC2 will be a competitive game. My thesis is simply that automatisms WILL REDUCE its competitiveness I disagree, like I said above. Will it reduce the mechanical prowess needed? Sure, but I think that's a good thing since I don't like fighting the interface when I have an opponent to play against too. Does that reduce the "skill" needed in SC2? Well that depends on what you mean by skill. I'd say the skill that should matter in an RTS is real-time decision making. This will not be reduced at all by automine/MBS (nor by smartcasting, nor by letting you select more than 12 units) so in that sense they don't reduce the skill required at all. And I've not at all claimed that SC2 will be great; I've merely claimed that whether it is does not depend on MBS/automine. SC1 is great despite the fact I feel like I'm fighting the interface every time I get past 24 or so combat units. SC2 will be great or not regardless of MBS/automine, though I suspect I at least won't feel as much like I'm fighting the interface when I'm playing. | ||
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Zoler
Sweden6339 Posts
On August 23 2009 09:46 starPride wrote: so UMS and automine and better graphics = worse spectator sport. kk just checking | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
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iamho
United States3347 Posts
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intruding
157 Posts
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