Mirror Mirror on the wall, who's the fairest of them all? Warning: Massive Spoilers Ahead
60 minutes after the start of today's MSL Semis between Iris and Kwanro, both players would have answered the same: Byun Hyung Tae. After thoroughly demolishing the rodent zerg in the first two sets, Iris was firmly in command of the series. Kwanro looked relatively shaken up after losing game 2 in disappointing fashion.
Experience was on Iris' side as well. Having been to the biggest stage of em all at the Daum OSL Finals, Iris was no stranger to such a big stage. Our little Pikachu however, was just getting a taste of the big stage. 2-0'd by the so called CJ Team Killer. Coincidentally, Iris was also up 2-0 on GGPlay in the OSL Finals until he coincidentally got stomped by GGPlay's ridiculous swarm play. But let's not sidetrack ourselves here.
About 15 minutes into Game 3 on Outsider, Iris was pretty much in full command of the game, looking to basically clean up for an easy 3-0 sweep. With a sizable army, 4 bases, and a ton of vessels, Iris decides to just basically screw around, send his 10 vessels in nonchalantly and irradiate some OLs.
Then, the SVs went boom. A couple plagues and a couple muta shots later, Iris' SV count dwindled to about 2. 5-10 minutes later, he'd find himself getting attacked by 10+ ultras. 60 minutes later, he'd find himself going home once again defeated 3-2 after being up 2-0 in a Best of 5 series to a zerg. Kwanro swiftly annihilated our hero terran in games 4 and 5 and has graced us with yet ANOTHER ZvZ finals.
When you look back into Starleague History, you'll see that there haven't been many SLs without big name players. Most recently, you might consider Luxury/Jangbi to be one of the worst Starleagues, but nothing compares to this atrocity we got in the MSL. Calm vs Kwanro.
Now I know some immediately thought "Almost as bad as NATE OSL" (The NATE OSL was the OSL that Sync eventually won, but no one really cared cause every favorite got eliminated early on and South Korea also made a huge World Cup run during that time period). However, at least we got to see Sync play some TvZ in the Nate finals. Who doesn't like to see Sync play TvZ? Fireworks terran was fucking awesome.
Anyways, now effectively we have arguably the worst Starleague finals in store for us. A mirror matchup ZvZ between a decent player in Calm, and a quite mediocre player in Kwanro who got rather lucky on his way to the Finals. Having to play Zero in ZvZ in the quarters was just lucky as hell. But besides the point, I would have rather seen Calm play Backho. Backho sucks at PvZ, but damn I woulda much rather seen any other race player get to the finals.
Zerg vs Zerg sucks. It's a matchup that involves 5 units: The drone, overlord, mutalisk, scourge, and zergling. Games range from 5 minutes to 15 minutes long and involve small and big battles of mutalisks, scourges, and zerglings. Early game, everyone makes zerglings and they go attack each other. Mid game, everyone makes mutalisks/scourge and they attack each other. Late game, everyone has a ton of mutalisks and zerglings and they attack each other.
At least in TvT you get some varying game lengths with all different types of strategies. Just the other day we saw UpMagic nuke Light in one of the most intense TvTs I've ever seen before with some epic base swapping. Dropship play, vult play, mass tank play, BCs are basically all viable in TvT. PvP on the other hand is quite possibly the most variable mirror matchup. Fast DTs, 4 gate, 2 gate reaver, etc. are all viable builds and make for some nice battles with some good storms going off.
Zerg vs zerg though leaves us with mutas, lings, and scourge. EVERY SINGLE GAME. If Jaedong weren't playing in the OSL finals and instead say Zero made it instead, I seriously doubt anyone would wanna watch Zero/Yarnc ZvZ finals either. Seriously, ZvZ BO5s are terrible to watch. Now, we're graced with two of them, and I don't even know who to blame for this atrocity. MSL organizers are probably shooting themselves if they aren't already dead over this finals. Instead of what could have been Jaedong/Bisu, we get Calm/Kwanro.
Mirror Mirror on the Wall, who's the fairest of them all? While Kwanro laughs and smiles when he asks the mirror this question, the general viewing public is left to cry and weep. Oh, the possibilities. Iris/Calm woulda been good. Jaedong/Bisu too. But no, we're stuck with Kwanro/Calm.
Fuck me, ZvZ sucks, and I am NOT watching this MSL Finals. Who cares enough to watch ZvZ? Especially a final with Calm and Kwanro. I'll go watch Jaedong win that Golden Mouse of his, but I'll just forget that Avalon ever sponsored a MSL.
I don't like watching zvz too much too but i hate people insulting it who don't even understand it.
However i will not watch kwanro vs calm. I will watch the OSL however :D. Pumped for that.
Jaedong vs Yarnc = Stork vs Best PvP in a way. Kwanro vs Calm zvz = Backho vs Tempest or any other decent/mediocre protoss (dont hurt me backho fans) that you substitute.
I don't like ZvZ either. I 'll probably watch the games anyway, but I 'd rather have another match-up. :/ And Iris so should've won, argh. :| I like Pikachu zerg but I like Iris more.
I would like to let you know that I will be watching this finals because ZvZ rulezzzz! But I am still undecided who I should hoot for. I love both kwanro and calm's styles!
On August 20 2009 22:25 alffla wrote: late game, zvz is like defilers hydralisk lurkers 1000 overlords vs 201000 mutaslisk tehn queens then plague ensnare darkswarm HOLY SHI WTF?????????
G_G
...if they even get to that late game
hoping for julyzerg vs yellow and yellow vs ggplay style zvzs :\
I really enjoy ZvZ, but I don't give who wins between Kwanro and Calm. I'd prefer Kwanro, but not enough to care enuogh to watch them live. Maybe I'll watch the VODs, or maybe a summary. I'm just hoping (and even expecting) that I *won't* miss anything good. JD vs Yarnc will be better.
ZvZ is a fun matchup to watch, and is very complex, but I can understand the complaints. While it's fun to watch in single games, it also doesn't make for a good final, because of the potential for the entire set to be over in 15 minutes. With such short games, there isn't as much of a chance for the tension of an epic Bo5 to set in.
zvz is fun, its great to play and watching it is exciting because of the split decisions and micro management.. however as a final.. it can be very short, so you dont get involved or feel an "epic" game.. but a lot of the time, without realising a single muta kill can change the outcome.. its wicked :D
Going 2-0 then losing 2-3 is the worst. You almost make it, and then you pretty much throw it all away. It's worse than getting stomped 3-0 since you aren't under any illusions that you are going to win, but if you're at 2-0, you just need one more win to advance and you fail 3 times =/
Back to back 4 and 5 pools just to get it over with ZvZ has a capability to be an interesting match up, but usually isn't. I'm with you, I won't watch this MSL either.
ZvZ is awesome. it's not as easy to watch as TvT and PvP because the game deciding plays are so much smaller, but I still prefer watching ZvZ more than the other mirror matchups.
That being said, Kwanro sucks and if he wins this MSL, it'll make me Q.Q
On August 21 2009 00:43 ghostWriter wrote: Going 2-0 then losing 2-3 is the worst. You almost make it, and then you pretty much throw it all away. It's worse than getting stomped 3-0 since you aren't under any illusions that you are going to win, but if you're at 2-0, you just need one more win to advance and you fail 3 times =/
especially when he lost game 3 by deciding to throw away all his science vessels for no apparent reason.
On August 21 2009 01:18 AzureEye wrote: ZvZ is awesome to watch, its fast-paced, micro-intensive, and 1 ovie scouting the wrong direction can determine the game.
You complain about how ZvZ always has the same units but we always see Tanks, Vults, Goliaths, Marines, Dropships, and sometimes BCs in TvT
Mirror matchups always use similar units verse each other, cry about it
Please don't watch the MSL finals so my stream won't be as laggy ^_^
#1. Quite possibly the reason why ZvZ is so boring to watch, it's a rock-paper-scissors match up for the average pro-gamer. And usually you don't even know who won the zergling battle/muta battle until the very end seconds when all you see is a pool of blood.
#2. TvT has Marines/Ghosts/B.C/Goliaths/Dropships/Wraiths/SCVs/Science Vessels/Vultures and the varying degree in amounts between all of them are different in games. Not only the units, the strategies/Build order advantages are totally different and you know almost all of the time who's winning a battle.
#3. He's complaining that the MSL AND OSL finals are his least-favourite mirror match-up and are going to be less than an hour long. The MSL even has no notable pro gamers that are playing in it. ZvZ is, for most of us, the most boring match-up to watch so yes, I think there's a reason to complain about it. He's not asking it to be changed, he's lamenting the fact that things turned out the way it did.
#4. In mirror match-ups he's not complaining they're using similar units against each other, it's more-so the fact that 97% of the ZvZ games use 5 or less units.
On August 20 2009 21:31 Roffles wrote: Anyways, now effectively we have arguably the worst Starleague finals in store for us. A mirror matchup ZvZ between a decent player in Calm, and a quite mediocre player in Kwanro who got rather lucky on his way to the Finals.
Kwanro's path to the finals included beating Flash and Iris. His group stage consisted of just as mediocre players as him, with the exception of Stork. Zero also took out Savior last season.
Calm's path to the finals included fOr-ever-slumping-fOrGG, an EffOrt that prioritized his practice for the Proleague, and a Jaedong that prioritized both his OSL and Proleague instead of his MSL. Calm also defeated Zero to advance out of the group stage.
I'm not going to claim that Calm isn't a decent player, or that Kwanro isn't a mediocre one, but then you say Kwanro got lucky? What the heck are you smoking? If anything Calm was the lucky one for having to face two players in a row (in quarter's and semi's no doubt) that didn't care enough about the MSL to prioritize practicing for it.
On August 21 2009 02:46 Avidkeystamper wrote: What's so good about this map pool besides Outsider?
That every single map is terrible for at least 1 p matchup? God's garden is 30% for Pvz/pvt. HBR is z favored, and Outsider isn't actually z favored overall. The map pool guaranteed Yarnc a place in the finals, and weak terrans guaranteed JD's place, along with Yarnc taking out Flash (Sorry fantasy fans, his tvz isn't strong enough for a b05 with JD). I haven't followed the msl very closely, besides Bisu/Iris. How kwanro got this far is beyond me, totally.
On August 21 2009 02:46 Avidkeystamper wrote: What's so good about this map pool besides Outsider?
That every single map is terrible for at least 1 p matchup? God's garden is 30% for Pvz/pvt. HBR is z favored, and Outsider isn't actually z favored overall. The map pool guaranteed Yarnc a place in the finals, and weak terrans guaranteed JD's place, along with Yarnc taking out Flash (Sorry fantasy fans, his tvz isn't strong enough for a b05 with JD). I haven't followed the msl very closely, besides Bisu/Iris. How kwanro got this far is beyond me, totally.
God's garden is not in the individual leagues. HBR is not zerg favored, lol what's good about it? The ridges where you can spawn broodling? That was one game. The lurker contain ridges? Just look at Hoejja vs Jangbi, there are so many paths to go around the ramps. The only thing is Outsider, which forces reaver/sair as the best way to win.
On August 21 2009 02:46 Avidkeystamper wrote: What's so good about this map pool besides Outsider?
That every single map is terrible for at least 1 p matchup? God's garden is 30% for Pvz/pvt. HBR is z favored, and Outsider isn't actually z favored overall. The map pool guaranteed Yarnc a place in the finals, and weak terrans guaranteed JD's place, along with Yarnc taking out Flash (Sorry fantasy fans, his tvz isn't strong enough for a b05 with JD). I haven't followed the msl very closely, besides Bisu/Iris. How kwanro got this far is beyond me, totally.
God's garden is not in the individual leagues. HBR is not zerg favored, lol what's good about it? The ridges where you can spawn broodling? That was one game. The lurker contain ridges? Just look at Hoejja vs Jangbi, there are so many paths to go around the ramps. The only thing is Outsider, which forces reaver/sair as the best way to win.
HBR is zerg favored in zvp, Terran favored in tvz, p favored in pvt (but not by much). It's not really unbalanced like battle royal or anything, but it's not a perfectly balanced map. God's Garden was in GOM (which had TVT final). Reaver/sair has always been legitimate and just as strong as any P opening, with the difference as to what is the best opening being what the map encourages. (Andro = great for reaver/sair, hbr = terrible). I don't understand this argument at all, it's like saying that maps that encourage P to FE in pvz like medusa are imbalanced for that reason, and that reason alone.
Holy World Holy World SE HBR Outsider RoTK. Whether holy world is balanced or not really isn't proven, HBR we already covered, Outsider is 12-11 pvz, (Yes, 27 - 42 including prelims/minor league though).
In fact, let's take a look at the prelim results on these maps - we usually don't count these when considering map balance, however, when the overall racial balance of the tourney itself comes into question, I feel these are more important than the actual results, as they determine the participants. Outsider is 9 - 22 PvZ 14-17 pvt 13-19 zvt
Rotk 13 - 27pvz 26- 17 zvt 26-20 pvt (idra was one of the T, random fact)
Oh, and God's Garden WAS used for this. 21-16 pvz 17- 24 pvt 25 -25 tvz
It's interesting to note that some of these maps seem much more balanced at a higher level of play (Outsider especially), or after time has passed becoming worse for p. Occasionally they switch around entirely like ROTK's pvt or God's Garden's pvz.
I like ZvZ, but only when the top players are playing it. EffOrt, Yarnc, and Jaedong are all fun to watch when they play each other. EffOrt was masterful against great.
But I'm not sold on Calm. He's a clever player, yes, but I don't think he has the game-sense and the skill that those three have. When he wins it's because he played cleverly or the opponent played stupidly. But watching Luxury wipe the floor with him- outmicro'ing him with lings and mutas at the same time, while also producing more... I question Calm's ability to play flawless ZvZ and not just smart ZvZ.
He beat Effort and Jaedong soundly in Bo5 series, what more do you want? Yarnc hasn't proven himself in BoXs against top Zergs. Calm proved himself agains the two "best" Zergs/ZvZers, yet you say Yarcn's a top player but Calm's not? What the hell?
On August 21 2009 07:30 Carnivorous Sheep wrote: He beat Effort and Jaedong soundly in Bo5 series, what more do you want? Yarnc hasn't proven himself in BoXs against top Zergs. Calm proved himself agains the two "best" Zergs/ZvZers, yet you say Yarcn's a top player but Calm's not? What the hell?
Calm (!) down.
I confess, my opinion is purely subjective (thus an opinion) but I think Yarnc's mechanics are much stronger, and Calm's chances seem to decrease the longer the ZvZ goes.
EPT
ZvZ has a capability to be an interesting match up, but usually isn't. I'm with you, I won't watch this MSL either. 
