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On September 18 2019 04:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 01:57 NewSunshine wrote:On September 17 2019 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough I mean, going "what do you mean I sound like a Nazi?" And not actually asking the question because they wanted an answer, and going "yeah okay bro" at a mod, when you're espousing Nazi ideology, is pretty fucked up. I wouldn't want any community to tolerate playing with that kind of fire. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi, maybe put in a little effort. Otherwise you're just a fucking Nazi, and we won't miss you. then dont let him in the thread? or any part of the site where people would be exposed to his opinions? this is still a site centered around gaming and the guy was here to mainly ask questions about bw, not debate about his opinions on the preservation of european genetics. seems pretty harsh that hes kicked off a gaming site for talking about issues unrelated to gaming literally like one time and finding out his views are very different to others
Or you know, if you're a Nazi, keep your political "discussions" on 8chan (or stormfront). Keep it to "Protoss master race" on TL.net...
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On September 18 2019 05:32 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 04:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 18 2019 01:57 NewSunshine wrote:On September 17 2019 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough I mean, going "what do you mean I sound like a Nazi?" And not actually asking the question because they wanted an answer, and going "yeah okay bro" at a mod, when you're espousing Nazi ideology, is pretty fucked up. I wouldn't want any community to tolerate playing with that kind of fire. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi, maybe put in a little effort. Otherwise you're just a fucking Nazi, and we won't miss you. then dont let him in the thread? or any part of the site where people would be exposed to his opinions? this is still a site centered around gaming and the guy was here to mainly ask questions about bw, not debate about his opinions on the preservation of european genetics. seems pretty harsh that hes kicked off a gaming site for talking about issues unrelated to gaming literally like one time and finding out his views are very different to others Or you know, if you're a Nazi, keep your political "discussions" on 8chan (or stormfront). Keep it to "Protoss master race" on TL.net...
It's those fucking lasers man!
Yeah I think you'll find that anyone who starts preaching Nazi ideologies will be shunned from any community that isn't exactly that. It's like admitting you're a pedo; just don't. No one wants to know, and you'll be thrown to the wolves the second you do.
edit: btw, I think 8chan has been pulled down. Thank god
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On September 18 2019 05:32 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 04:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:On September 18 2019 01:57 NewSunshine wrote:On September 17 2019 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough I mean, going "what do you mean I sound like a Nazi?" And not actually asking the question because they wanted an answer, and going "yeah okay bro" at a mod, when you're espousing Nazi ideology, is pretty fucked up. I wouldn't want any community to tolerate playing with that kind of fire. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi, maybe put in a little effort. Otherwise you're just a fucking Nazi, and we won't miss you. then dont let him in the thread? or any part of the site where people would be exposed to his opinions? this is still a site centered around gaming and the guy was here to mainly ask questions about bw, not debate about his opinions on the preservation of european genetics. seems pretty harsh that hes kicked off a gaming site for talking about issues unrelated to gaming literally like one time and finding out his views are very different to others Or you know, if you're a Nazi, keep your political "discussions" on 8chan (or stormfront). Keep it to "Protoss master race" on TL.net...
Uhh buddy... The European Union just appointed last week a ‘commissioner for protecting our European way of life’, their job is to oversee immigration policy.
So if you want to talk about Nazi rhetoric maybe go to Brussels or Strasbourg before here.
The US thread shouldn’t be filled with pages of Euro stuff though - the ban was fair.
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Norway28908 Posts
On September 18 2019 04:33 evilfatsh1t wrote:Show nested quote +On September 18 2019 01:57 NewSunshine wrote:On September 17 2019 19:18 evilfatsh1t wrote:
fefil was a bit of an idiot in the bw section as well but yeah i thought the ban was pretty harsh.
itd be one thing if he was aggressively asserting his views onto the forum but the ban was kinda like "oh, you speak like a nazi. well fuck you then".
not that tl is obligated to give users their freedom of speech, but ive seen a lot more users with questionable opinions and views that are given way more time on the site than fefil was.
to be fair a lot of the recent activity in the bw sqsa thread was because of him. maybe a thread/temp ban would have been enough I mean, going "what do you mean I sound like a Nazi?" And not actually asking the question because they wanted an answer, and going "yeah okay bro" at a mod, when you're espousing Nazi ideology, is pretty fucked up. I wouldn't want any community to tolerate playing with that kind of fire. If you don't want to be mistaken for a Nazi, maybe put in a little effort. Otherwise you're just a fucking Nazi, and we won't miss you. then dont let him in the thread? or any part of the site where people would be exposed to his opinions? this is still a site centered around gaming and the guy was here to mainly ask questions about bw, not debate about his opinions on the preservation of european genetics. seems pretty harsh that hes kicked off a gaming site for talking about issues unrelated to gaming literally like one time and finding out his views are very different to others
There is precedent for banning him from political threads and allowing him to post elsewhere on the site, tbh. (Testie, whose views are more explicitly racist than fefil's.)
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United Kingdom10010 Posts
KwarK must feel pretty smug reading that
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United States44372 Posts
I mean he opened with whites are responsible for civilization and technology and blacks are genetically basically coyotes to the white wolves so I’m not really sure what more I’d have needed.
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On September 19 2019 02:09 KwarK wrote:
I mean he opened with whites are responsible for civilization and technology and blacks are genetically basically coyotes to the white wolves so I’m not really sure what more I’d have needed.
I didn't perceive what he presented as coyotes vs. wolves as one being better than the other; it was genuinely misguided (for anyone who doesn't know, there is more genetic diversity within "races" than there is between them on average). I saw it as an opportunity to inform someone who was operating on false information (even though I was obviously too late).
He also didn't say that black people didn't invent anything or do anything, he was claiming that European culture and identity should be preserved because they invented/created all of those things on his desk or whatever. Another misguided view due to oversimplification, but because he wasn't necessarily taking anything away from blacks or Africans, I didn't read it as inherently white supremacist. In my eyes, there was still room for plausible deniability or doubt, and your reaction while understandable ("if it looks and sounds like a Nazi, is probably a Nazi") also felt like it may have jumped the gun a bit - especially if you didn't know about his behavior outside of TL (which admittedly wasn't as blatant as this post I shared when I last looked).
In short, you definitely diagnosed the situation appropriately, but you did it based on what I see as incomplete or insufficient evidence. Based on what was actually written in the thread, he may have just been stupid and misinformed, not necessarily a bleeding heart racist.
EDIT: To be clear, I'm not really complaining about it - as I said, he was "coarse" at best even outside of the politics thread and I knew about some of his ... unsavory... views already.
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On September 19 2019 02:19 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 02:09 KwarK wrote:
I mean he opened with whites are responsible for civilization and technology and blacks are genetically basically coyotes to the white wolves so I’m not really sure what more I’d have needed. I didn't perceive what he presented as coyotes vs. wolves as one being better than the other; it was genuinely misguided (for anyone who doesn't know, there is more genetic diversity within "races" than there is between them on average). I saw it as an opportunity to inform someone who was operating on false information (even though I was obviously too late). He also didn't say that black people didn't invent anything or do anything, he was claiming that European culture and identity should be preserved because they invented/created all of those things on his desk or whatever. Another misguided view due to oversimplification, but because he wasn't necessarily taking anything away from blacks or Africans, I didn't read it as inherently white supremacist. In my eyes, there was still room for plausible deniability or doubt, and your reaction while understandable ("if it looks and sounds like a Nazi, is probably a Nazi") also felt like it may have jumped the gun a bit - especially if you didn't know about his behavior outside of TL (which admittedly wasn't as blatant as this post I shared when I last looked). In short, you definitely diagnosed the situation appropriately, but you did it based on what I see as incomplete or insufficient evidence. Based on what was actually written in the thread, he may have just been stupid and misinformed, not necessarily a bleeding heart racist.
This reads to me as preemptive defending (of a future poster)/coaching of how to expound essentially the same ideology through more superficially civil rhetoric.
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The whole game of attempting to stuff Nazi shit beneath the guise of “plausible deniability” is a well documented and discussed phenomenon. Hannah Arendt was the first to go in depth on it iirc.
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On September 19 2019 02:24 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 02:19 Jealous wrote:On September 19 2019 02:09 KwarK wrote:
I mean he opened with whites are responsible for civilization and technology and blacks are genetically basically coyotes to the white wolves so I’m not really sure what more I’d have needed. I didn't perceive what he presented as coyotes vs. wolves as one being better than the other; it was genuinely misguided (for anyone who doesn't know, there is more genetic diversity within "races" than there is between them on average). I saw it as an opportunity to inform someone who was operating on false information (even though I was obviously too late). He also didn't say that black people didn't invent anything or do anything, he was claiming that European culture and identity should be preserved because they invented/created all of those things on his desk or whatever. Another misguided view due to oversimplification, but because he wasn't necessarily taking anything away from blacks or Africans, I didn't read it as inherently white supremacist. In my eyes, there was still room for plausible deniability or doubt, and your reaction while understandable ("if it looks and sounds like a Nazi, is probably a Nazi") also felt like it may have jumped the gun a bit - especially if you didn't know about his behavior outside of TL (which admittedly wasn't as blatant as this post I shared when I last looked). In short, you definitely diagnosed the situation appropriately, but you did it based on what I see as incomplete or insufficient evidence. Based on what was actually written in the thread, he may have just been stupid and misinformed, not necessarily a bleeding heart racist. This reads to me as preemptive defending (of a future poster)/coaching of how to expound essentially the same ideology through more superficially civil rhetoric.
It is intended to be read as "stupidity isn't a crime." I was no fan of this person and in no way did I defend any of his views, even pointed out that "if it sounds like a Nazi it's probably a Nazi." The /probably/ is the issue here. Pump your brakes chief.
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On September 19 2019 02:37 Jealous wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 02:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 02:19 Jealous wrote:On September 19 2019 02:09 KwarK wrote:
I mean he opened with whites are responsible for civilization and technology and blacks are genetically basically coyotes to the white wolves so I’m not really sure what more I’d have needed. I didn't perceive what he presented as coyotes vs. wolves as one being better than the other; it was genuinely misguided (for anyone who doesn't know, there is more genetic diversity within "races" than there is between them on average). I saw it as an opportunity to inform someone who was operating on false information (even though I was obviously too late). He also didn't say that black people didn't invent anything or do anything, he was claiming that European culture and identity should be preserved because they invented/created all of those things on his desk or whatever. Another misguided view due to oversimplification, but because he wasn't necessarily taking anything away from blacks or Africans, I didn't read it as inherently white supremacist. In my eyes, there was still room for plausible deniability or doubt, and your reaction while understandable ("if it looks and sounds like a Nazi, is probably a Nazi") also felt like it may have jumped the gun a bit - especially if you didn't know about his behavior outside of TL (which admittedly wasn't as blatant as this post I shared when I last looked). In short, you definitely diagnosed the situation appropriately, but you did it based on what I see as incomplete or insufficient evidence. Based on what was actually written in the thread, he may have just been stupid and misinformed, not necessarily a bleeding heart racist. This reads to me as preemptive defending (of a future poster)/coaching of how to expound essentially the same ideology through more superficially civil rhetoric. It is intended to be read as "stupidity isn't a crime." I was no fan of this person and in no way did I defend any of his views, even pointed out that "if it sounds like a Nazi it's probably a Nazi." The /probably/ is the issue here. Pump your brakes chief.
I'm saying it reads to me more like defending "smart" Nazis and coaching not smart ones on how to prosthelytize in inhospitable places and avoid rookie mistakes (like making his racism obvious elsewhere under the same/similar tag).
That basically he was, upon your reading of his posts in isolation, merely an unwitting accomplice in white supremacy rather than pervaded by it.
Probably not worth getting into here and now but the "he's not knowingly advancing white supremacy, he's just ignorant" is older than anyone here. Combine that with the Trump administration and increasingly more people recognize that even if that was true, it's not like they are a handful of facts and logical arguments away from changing their ideological orientation toward whatever level of complacency/advocacy of white supremacy they've settled on anyway.
EDIT: This trope of people Magooing themselves into being Nazis is... what it is. Pick your rebuttal, be it Chris Rock or Jane Elliott
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On September 19 2019 02:57 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On September 19 2019 02:37 Jealous wrote:On September 19 2019 02:24 GreenHorizons wrote:On September 19 2019 02:19 Jealous wrote:On September 19 2019 02:09 KwarK wrote:
I mean he opened with whites are responsible for civilization and technology and blacks are genetically basically coyotes to the white wolves so I’m not really sure what more I’d have needed. I didn't perceive what he presented as coyotes vs. wolves as one being better than the other; it was genuinely misguided (for anyone who doesn't know, there is more genetic diversity within "races" than there is between them on average). I saw it as an opportunity to inform someone who was operating on false information (even though I was obviously too late). He also didn't say that black people didn't invent anything or do anything, he was claiming that European culture and identity should be preserved because they invented/created all of those things on his desk or whatever. Another misguided view due to oversimplification, but because he wasn't necessarily taking anything away from blacks or Africans, I didn't read it as inherently white supremacist. In my eyes, there was still room for plausible deniability or doubt, and your reaction while understandable ("if it looks and sounds like a Nazi, is probably a Nazi") also felt like it may have jumped the gun a bit - especially if you didn't know about his behavior outside of TL (which admittedly wasn't as blatant as this post I shared when I last looked). In short, you definitely diagnosed the situation appropriately, but you did it based on what I see as incomplete or insufficient evidence. Based on what was actually written in the thread, he may have just been stupid and misinformed, not necessarily a bleeding heart racist. This reads to me as preemptive defending (of a future poster)/coaching of how to expound essentially the same ideology through more superficially civil rhetoric. It is intended to be read as "stupidity isn't a crime." I was no fan of this person and in no way did I defend any of his views, even pointed out that "if it sounds like a Nazi it's probably a Nazi." The /probably/ is the issue here. Pump your brakes chief. I'm saying it reads to me more like defending "smart" Nazis and coaching not smart ones on how to prosthelytize in inhospitable places and avoid rookie mistakes (like making his racism obvious elsewhere under the same/similar tag). That basically he was, upon your reading of his posts in isolation, merely an unwitting accomplice in white supremacy rather than pervaded by it. Probably not worth getting into here and now but the "he's not knowingly advancing white supremacy, he's just ignorant" is older than anyone here. Combine that with the Trump administration and increasingly more people recognize that even if that was true, it's not like they are a handful of facts and logical arguments away from changing their ideological orientation toward whatever level of complacency/advocacy of white supremacy they've settled on anyway. EDIT: This trope of people Magooing themselves into being Nazis is... what it is. Pick your rebuttal, be it Chris Rock or Jane Elliott
A forum is a place for discourse, and silencing an uninformed opinion does a potential disservice to others down the road.
For example, if a person is presented with facts that contradict their position, this creates a venue for at least three (non-mutually exclusive) possible outcomes:
1) Silent observers may be more informed; regardless of whether this contributes to them being better equipped to handle individuals such as fefil or potentially changes their mind away from supporting fefil's beliefs, it has the potential to be a net positive.
2) Users like fefil may accept the arguments levied against them and change their mind. This is of course an optimistic point of view, but one that we must necessarily accept as plausible, as rejecting it would necessarily force us to accept that the us politics thread has practically no value outside of providing a venue for people to talk past one another.
3) Users like fefil try to argue against the facts presented and thus demonstrate willful ignorance, or racism, in the process - thus creating a more credible foundation for their removal.
You're misrepresenting my position yet again, by the way - not once have I defended any Nazi regardless or how smart or stupid they are, nor am I training anyone to do anything. Please stop doing this.
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I'd argue that fefil was well into 3) by the time he got banned. If this is a discussion about how to moderate cases like his going forward, I guess figuring out where TL wants to draw the line between situations 2) and 3) is a good start. You appear to think fefil was still tentatively hovering between them...
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On September 19 2019 03:35 Acrofales wrote:
I'd argue that fefil was well into 3) by the time he got banned. If this is a discussion about how to moderate cases like his going forward, I guess figuring out where TL wants to draw the line between situations 2) and 3) is a good start. You appear to think fefil was still tentatively hovering between them...
I think that the attempt should be made with actual linking of research and data to combat their incorrect beliefs on a factual level. Like I said before, I'm not against the ban, I'm not defending fefil. I admitted that it was an optimistic point of view, but one that I believe users and particularly moderators should be inclined to espouse until there is incontrovertible evidence of deliberate prejudice or harassment. Admittedly, I may be remembering his latter posts not as well as his initial few, which while patently misguided did not definitively strike me as white supremacy - probing and discourse is what evidently would have led to that conclusion (keep in mind that I dug and commented on that reddit post/history myself), which is what I believe that forums are made for.
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On September 17 2019 10:34 GreenHorizons wrote:
What happened to the "defeat them in the marketplace of ideas" people? I'm not complaining, I'm just curious if they had a change of heart (what caused it?) or they just aren't around anymore?
Found em.
As to the rest, I think farv gets my point. I can take a win (the removal of fef) when it comes though, so sorry if my argument is unnecessarily offensive and I'll leave it at that.
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United States44372 Posts
There are no shortage of white supremacist forums out there if you’d like to go evangelize them. You don’t need tl to host them and divert forum space from the discussion of the subject of the topic for that.
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EPT
