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Mod Passive Aggressive Posting? - Page 2

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brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9644 Posts
November 14 2012 17:08 GMT
#21
On November 15 2012 01:00 iamperfection wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2012 11:14 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
On November 14 2012 11:09 dAPhREAk wrote:
thats the worst post of kwark's you could find?


No, not by a long margin but I don't have active records of mod postings as I never thought I'd need them but it's a seemingly continous process lately.

Well clearly its time to start taking active records of mod postings.

Come with a proper case i say.



agreed. keep us informed.
Whatson
Profile Blog Joined January 2012
United States5357 Posts
November 14 2012 17:12 GMT
#22
On November 14 2012 18:28 Joedaddy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2012 10:59 Plexa wrote:
I don't see any problems here.


The only real question I have is, Why is it always Kwark? At what point do the TL staff say enough is enough? Kwarks snarky posts usually align with the popular majority of TL, but that doesn't make them any better (or worse).

Or, at what point does Kwark decide to stop pissing people off just for the sake of pissing people off?

I've always been told that if you're pissing everyone around you off, maybe the problem isn't everyone around you. Granted, not "everyone" thinks Kwark takes his mod powers to far, but if we're being honest, there's probably a reason why users post things like "Yay! another Kwark thread /popcorn" and "oh look! the weekly Kwark thread."

In Kwark's defense, its been my personal experience that he can be reasonable, but from me to you kind sir, please stop pissing on people's toes just because you can.

Found this just a minute ago. I believe it was a warning sent to the user quoted in the OP. Seems applicable here (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Show nested quote +
Don't take the easy way out of making an actual argument by being a condescending dick. I have my own reservations about the thought process of a lot of people in this thread in particular but to post like this is unacceptable.

Hold yourself to a higher standard and people will think more of your for it, especially if you are arguing against someone is is determined to ignore your positions.

I love KwarK threads, and I rejoice and grab popcorn whenever I see one because it invariably shows the amount of logic and reasoning that goes through each warning/ban, and it also shows how much patience the mods have in answering every idiot who comes to website feedback with actual arguments and logic. It is also entertaining to see how far the complainers will go in trying to justify themselves. All for nothing, because they are always in the wrong.
¯\_(シ)_/¯
PassiveAce
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States18076 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-14 17:14:17
November 14 2012 17:14 GMT
#23
When kwark is being "aggressive" he usually isn't very passive about it, he's very well articulated when he's calling someone out.

The example you presented is just sarcasm.
Call me Marge Simpson cuz I love you homie
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
November 14 2012 19:37 GMT
#24
Attacking a strawman with contemptuous sarcasm is the number one right of the internet, please do not take it away from Kwark or we might all be in danger.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
November 14 2012 20:03 GMT
#25
On November 14 2012 18:48 Funnytoss wrote:
No, the reason why I like to read Kwark threads and bring out the popcorn isn't because it's another growing list of instances in which Kwark was unreasonable.

It's because 9 times out of 10, he was entirely justified in doing what he did, and is reasonable enough to explain the obvious in amusing ways to us. The popcorn is laughing at clueless users who have no idea what posting on TL should look like. The only issue I have with Kwark is with how he treats any and all religion-related argument, but that's the 1 out of 10.

glad to see im not alone.
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-14 20:23:14
November 14 2012 20:10 GMT
#26
The REAL problem is not passive aggressive posting, that is fine so long as they are consistent and don't ban people for the same types of posts (which they do by the way)... The real problem is using moderation status to stifle debate.

"Usual abortion topic rule"? What a joke. If people want to use the word baby to evoke a certain response, and someone wants to use fetus to prevent that response, no one has any right to dictate with force which side gets to frame the debate. This is just the most recent example. If mods want to engage in debate, they can say whatever they like. But using their position to force the framing of a debate is an abuse of power, and it occurs ALL the time on this site. I could name a dozen opinions which are not allowed to be expressed on this site, and I really think that detracts from the quality of the discussion. Having opposing ideas and opinions is a GOOD thing, even if you think they are wrong or ignorant or whatever. Banning or threatening to ban people for expressing an idea you don't agree with is purely abuse of position.

On November 14 2012 10:42 semantics wrote:
What gets your banned or warned is often direct confederation, just being moody, sassy, sarcastic usually is fine depending on the topic is, but what gets your warned or banned is direct insults. It's a pretty easy line to follow.

Also, this is completely wrong. I've been banned several times for making sarcastic posts.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
DeepElemBlues
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
United States5080 Posts
November 14 2012 20:20 GMT
#27
On November 15 2012 05:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:
The REAL problem is not passive aggressive posting, that is fine so long as they are consistent and don't ban people for the same types of posts (which they do by the way)... The real problem is using moderation status to stifle debate.

"Usual abortion topic rule"? What a joke. If people want to use the word baby to evoke a certain response, and someone wants to use fetus to prevent that response, no one has any right to dictate with force which side gets to frame the debate. This is just the most recent example. If mods want to engage in debate, they can say whatever they like. But using their position to force the framing of a debate is an abuse of power, and it occurs ALL the time on this site. I could name a dozen opinions which are not allowed to be expressed on this site, and I really think that detracts from the quality of the discussion. Having opposing ideas and opinions is a GOOD thing, even if you think they are wrong or ignorant or whatever. Banning or threatening to ban people for expressing an idea you don't agree with is purely abuse of position.


Yeah, I'm still shocked that the "usual abortion topic rule" is either usual or a rule. It's nonsense to say that you can express your belief that the unborn child is a baby (human) (the essence of the pro-life argument) but you cannot actually use the word baby.
no place i'd rather be than the satellite of love
JingleHell
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
United States11308 Posts
November 14 2012 20:56 GMT
#28
Website feedback needs a single dedicated thread for KwarK. And then Fan Clubs needs another.
HULKAMANIA
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States1219 Posts
November 14 2012 21:07 GMT
#29
((I was going to create a thread about the "usual abortion topic rule," but it looks like it came up here already. Here is what would have been my OP. Also, I would like to point out this is like my third Website Feedback foray in like two months. I'm becoming quite the crusader.))

I just wanted to register my discontent with the mod note in the “Irish abortion law” thread that just got closed. KwarK is correct that the words “baby” and “fetus” have meanings. Those meanings, however, are often interchangeable. Several online dictionaries support their interchangeability:

ba•by (b b )
n. pl. ba•bies
1.
a. A very young child; an infant.
b. An unborn child; a fetus.

ba•by
   [bey-bee] Show IPA noun, plural ba•bies,adjective, verb, ba•bied, ba•by•ing.
noun
1. an infant or very young child.
2. a newborn or very young animal.
3. the youngest member of a family, group, etc.
4. an immature or childish person.
5. a human fetus.

You also have the definitive dictionary of the English language, The Oxford English Dictionary. It’s first entry for “baby” is as follows:

A very young child, esp. one not yet able to walk and dependent on the care of others; an infant. Also applied to an unborn child.

Wegandi evidently got banned for “being a dick over correct spelling” to the mod, Kwark, that he was arguing with. Fine. It happens. But I think it’s important to recognize that the whole disagreement was subsequent to an unnecessary attempt to restrict the definition of the word “baby.” Words are defined by their usage, not by fiats from on high. And insisting that other people conform to your habits of language use is at best pedantic.

I think that mod notes ought to be reserved for less trivial purposes.

There, TL, consider yourself feedbacked.
If it were not so, I would have told you.
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
November 14 2012 21:20 GMT
#30
wegandi was banned for questioning kwark's use of "foetus" instead of "fetus." kwark is from the UK.

interesting that he got a 1 week ban for being a dick and saying "Can we spell fetus correctly?"

Can we spell fetus correctly? In any event, I all ready addressed the question. If you care to dwell on semantics instead of take the point of my posts, I see no point in continuing to wade in the muck. No one has the right to murder another human being. A fetus has all the genetic characteristics of a human being - ergo it is a human being, just not fully developed - yet. The same is said of any other period in our development. A newborn is not developed as an adult and must grow over its lifetime. Just because a fetus does not share all the developments yet of a newborn, does not make it less a human being - it just needs time, and as a human being it has all the equal rights and liberties of any other.

If you can't understand that, well...what's the point.

PS: One of the risks of sex is pregnancy. If you do not want to take that risk then do not engage in the act. Just the same as in banking - a loan is a risk. If you don't want to happen to lose the money you loaned, perhaps you shouldn't make the loans in the first place. It is a voluntary choice, just because ex-ante you dislike your choice, doesn't mean you have the right to murder.

User was temp banned for this post.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382015&currentpage=5#93

Wegandi was just temp banned for 1 week by KwarK.

That account was created on 2011-03-12 14:09:12 and had 877 posts.

Reason: My language is called English too and tl is not an exclusively American forum. Next time you feel like being a dick over correct spelling of words you should remember this moment.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=1442#28829
Seeker *
Profile Blog Joined April 2005
Where dat snitch at?37122 Posts
November 14 2012 21:22 GMT
#31
KwarK threads are the best threads :D
ModeratorPeople ask me, "Seeker, what are you seeking?" My answer? "Sleep, damn it! Always sleep!"
TL+ Member
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44403 Posts
November 14 2012 22:18 GMT
#32
On November 15 2012 05:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:
The REAL problem is not passive aggressive posting, that is fine so long as they are consistent and don't ban people for the same types of posts (which they do by the way)... The real problem is using moderation status to stifle debate.

"Usual abortion topic rule"? What a joke. If people want to use the word baby to evoke a certain response, and someone wants to use fetus to prevent that response, no one has any right to dictate with force which side gets to frame the debate. This is just the most recent example. If mods want to engage in debate, they can say whatever they like. But using their position to force the framing of a debate is an abuse of power, and it occurs ALL the time on this site. I could name a dozen opinions which are not allowed to be expressed on this site, and I really think that detracts from the quality of the discussion. Having opposing ideas and opinions is a GOOD thing, even if you think they are wrong or ignorant or whatever. Banning or threatening to ban people for expressing an idea you don't agree with is purely abuse of position.

Show nested quote +
On November 14 2012 10:42 semantics wrote:
What gets your banned or warned is often direct confederation, just being moody, sassy, sarcastic usually is fine depending on the topic is, but what gets your warned or banned is direct insults. It's a pretty easy line to follow.

Also, this is completely wrong. I've been banned several times for making sarcastic posts.

Using baby with you mean foetus and using murder when you mean abortion etc is nothing more than using intentionally vague or simply incorrect words in order to obfuscate the topic and avoid making an actual point. Furthermore when one of the core issues in any abortion debate is the value of the foetus' life then calling it a baby and refusing to acknowledge that it is not medically defined as a baby is a big issue. I don't think it's too much to ask that people actually argue the point they want to make and part of that is using the same set of words with strictly defined meanings. If you can't agree on a common language then no debate can take place.

However another mod didn't even take the time to attempt to regulate that topic and instead just closed it, presumably because unlike me he felt you guys were incapable of even forming a semblance of a debate. Would you be happier if I did that in future?
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44403 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-14 22:34:32
November 14 2012 22:22 GMT
#33
On November 15 2012 06:20 dAPhREAk wrote:
wegandi was banned for questioning kwark's use of "foetus" instead of "fetus." kwark is from the UK.

interesting that he got a 1 week ban for being a dick and saying "Can we spell fetus correctly?"

Show nested quote +
Can we spell fetus correctly? In any event, I all ready addressed the question. If you care to dwell on semantics instead of take the point of my posts, I see no point in continuing to wade in the muck. No one has the right to murder another human being. A fetus has all the genetic characteristics of a human being - ergo it is a human being, just not fully developed - yet. The same is said of any other period in our development. A newborn is not developed as an adult and must grow over its lifetime. Just because a fetus does not share all the developments yet of a newborn, does not make it less a human being - it just needs time, and as a human being it has all the equal rights and liberties of any other.

If you can't understand that, well...what's the point.

PS: One of the risks of sex is pregnancy. If you do not want to take that risk then do not engage in the act. Just the same as in banking - a loan is a risk. If you don't want to happen to lose the money you loaned, perhaps you shouldn't make the loans in the first place. It is a voluntary choice, just because ex-ante you dislike your choice, doesn't mean you have the right to murder.

User was temp banned for this post.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382015&currentpage=5#93

Show nested quote +
Wegandi was just temp banned for 1 week by KwarK.

That account was created on 2011-03-12 14:09:12 and had 877 posts.

Reason: My language is called English too and tl is not an exclusively American forum. Next time you feel like being a dick over correct spelling of words you should remember this moment.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=1442#28829

Complaining about spelling in lieu of actually making a point is pretty fucking retarded. Complaining about it and being wrong is even more retarded. But the biggest prize goes to the guy who does both of the above to a moderator. It would have been banworthy shitposting either way, whoever he did it to could have reported it and he'd have been moderated but skipping the middle steps and just going right up to the guy empowered to act is pretty fucking dumb.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
November 14 2012 22:31 GMT
#34
On November 14 2012 18:28 Joedaddy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 14 2012 10:59 Plexa wrote:
I don't see any problems here.


The only real question I have is, Why is it always Kwark? At what point do the TL staff say enough is enough? Kwarks snarky posts usually align with the popular majority of TL, but that doesn't make them any better (or worse).

Or, at what point does Kwark decide to stop pissing people off just for the sake of pissing people off?

I've always been told that if you're pissing everyone around you off, maybe the problem isn't everyone around you. Granted, not "everyone" thinks Kwark takes his mod powers to far, but if we're being honest, there's probably a reason why users post things like "Yay! another Kwark thread /popcorn" and "oh look! the weekly Kwark thread."

In Kwark's defense, its been my personal experience that he can be reasonable, but from me to you kind sir, please stop pissing on people's toes just because you can.

Found this just a minute ago. I believe it was a warning sent to the user quoted in the OP. Seems applicable here (please correct me if I'm wrong):

Show nested quote +
Don't take the easy way out of making an actual argument by being a condescending dick. I have my own reservations about the thought process of a lot of people in this thread in particular but to post like this is unacceptable.

Hold yourself to a higher standard and people will think more of your for it, especially if you are arguing against someone is is determined to ignore your positions.


Essentially it seems like it is "always Kwark" because he is the one who most often engages in moderating the general forum. It has much less to do with his posting or style of moderation, and more with the fact that he exposes himself to these kinds of grievances far more than any other moderator. We have a large moderation staff and when these threads come up we all discuss if there was any wrong-doing involved and come to the conclusion we agree with the way he handled the situation.

If you remember the last thread the crowd consensus was largely agreeing with him as well.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-14 22:38:23
November 14 2012 22:34 GMT
#35
On November 15 2012 07:22 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2012 06:20 dAPhREAk wrote:
wegandi was banned for questioning kwark's use of "foetus" instead of "fetus." kwark is from the UK.

interesting that he got a 1 week ban for being a dick and saying "Can we spell fetus correctly?"

Can we spell fetus correctly? In any event, I all ready addressed the question. If you care to dwell on semantics instead of take the point of my posts, I see no point in continuing to wade in the muck. No one has the right to murder another human being. A fetus has all the genetic characteristics of a human being - ergo it is a human being, just not fully developed - yet. The same is said of any other period in our development. A newborn is not developed as an adult and must grow over its lifetime. Just because a fetus does not share all the developments yet of a newborn, does not make it less a human being - it just needs time, and as a human being it has all the equal rights and liberties of any other.

If you can't understand that, well...what's the point.

PS: One of the risks of sex is pregnancy. If you do not want to take that risk then do not engage in the act. Just the same as in banking - a loan is a risk. If you don't want to happen to lose the money you loaned, perhaps you shouldn't make the loans in the first place. It is a voluntary choice, just because ex-ante you dislike your choice, doesn't mean you have the right to murder.

User was temp banned for this post.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=382015&currentpage=5#93

Wegandi was just temp banned for 1 week by KwarK.

That account was created on 2011-03-12 14:09:12 and had 877 posts.

Reason: My language is called English too and tl is not an exclusively American forum. Next time you feel like being a dick over correct spelling of words you should remember this moment.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696&currentpage=1442#28829

Complaining about spelling in lieu of actually making a point is pretty fucking retarded. Complaining about it and being wrong is even more retarded. But the biggest prize goes to the guy who does both of the above to moderator. It would have been banworthy shitposting either way, whoever he did it to could have reported it and he'd have been moderated but skipping the middle steps and just going right up to the guy empowered to act is pretty fucking dumb.

let me clarify: ban justified, but curious as to the length.

edit: i was actually trying to help out because the post above mine could be read as you banning someone that you were arguing with willy-nilly; wasnt trying to ride your ass (this time!!!). ;-)
HULKAMANIA
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States1219 Posts
November 14 2012 22:35 GMT
#36
On November 15 2012 07:18 KwarK wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2012 05:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:
The REAL problem is not passive aggressive posting, that is fine so long as they are consistent and don't ban people for the same types of posts (which they do by the way)... The real problem is using moderation status to stifle debate.

"Usual abortion topic rule"? What a joke. If people want to use the word baby to evoke a certain response, and someone wants to use fetus to prevent that response, no one has any right to dictate with force which side gets to frame the debate. This is just the most recent example. If mods want to engage in debate, they can say whatever they like. But using their position to force the framing of a debate is an abuse of power, and it occurs ALL the time on this site. I could name a dozen opinions which are not allowed to be expressed on this site, and I really think that detracts from the quality of the discussion. Having opposing ideas and opinions is a GOOD thing, even if you think they are wrong or ignorant or whatever. Banning or threatening to ban people for expressing an idea you don't agree with is purely abuse of position.

On November 14 2012 10:42 semantics wrote:
What gets your banned or warned is often direct confederation, just being moody, sassy, sarcastic usually is fine depending on the topic is, but what gets your warned or banned is direct insults. It's a pretty easy line to follow.

Also, this is completely wrong. I've been banned several times for making sarcastic posts.

Using baby with you mean foetus and using murder when you mean abortion etc is nothing more than using intentionally vague or simply incorrect words in order to obfuscate the topic and avoid making an actual point. Furthermore when one of the core issues in any abortion debate is the value of the foetus' life then calling it a baby and refusing to acknowledge that it is not medically defined as a baby is a big issue. I don't think it's too much to ask that people actually argue the point they want to make and part of that is using the same set of words with strictly defined meanings. If you can't agree on a common language then no debate can take place.

However another mod didn't even take the time to attempt to regulate that topic and instead just closed it, presumably because unlike me he felt you guys were incapable of even forming a semblance of a debate. Would you be happier if I did that in future?

Of course. Especially if the alternative is making unilateral decisions about what are and are not legitimate uses of common words.
If it were not so, I would have told you.
brian
Profile Blog Joined August 2004
United States9644 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-14 22:49:26
November 14 2012 22:45 GMT
#37
In order to have an intelligent debate on the issue(hardly a possibility to begin with) you NEED a unilateral definition of the words. Otherwise you will find yourself arguing over semantics.

The merits of a persons argument on the topic is not judged by the connotation of the words he or she uses. That should make the definitions irrelevant. The idea is to make it simpler for the audience to understand EXACTLY the argument rather than have to infer the meaning of a potentially foggy word. This is why usually it is accompanied by an exact number of weeks into pregnancy.
HULKAMANIA
Profile Blog Joined December 2004
United States1219 Posts
November 14 2012 23:05 GMT
#38
On November 15 2012 07:45 Gene wrote:
In order to have an intelligent debate on the issue(hardly a possibility to begin with) you NEED a unilateral definition of the words. Otherwise you will find yourself arguing over semantics.

The merits of a persons argument on the topic is not judged by the connotation of the words he or she uses. That should make the definitions irrelevant. The idea is to make it simpler for the audience to understand EXACTLY the argument rather than have to infer the meaning of a potentially foggy word. This is why usually it is accompanied by an exact number of weeks into pregnancy.

I would agree with you about the importance of shared definitions, but that's just it: they have to be mutual. Something both sides can agree with. Something that was arrived at through discussion, not a one-sided declaration.

And it's naive to think that, in the context of an abortion debate, "fetus" is not an ideologically charged word, which is why you don't get to suddenly declare it the only appropriate word to use.
If it were not so, I would have told you.
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44403 Posts
November 14 2012 23:07 GMT
#39
On November 15 2012 07:35 HULKAMANIA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2012 07:18 KwarK wrote:
On November 15 2012 05:10 jdseemoreglass wrote:
The REAL problem is not passive aggressive posting, that is fine so long as they are consistent and don't ban people for the same types of posts (which they do by the way)... The real problem is using moderation status to stifle debate.

"Usual abortion topic rule"? What a joke. If people want to use the word baby to evoke a certain response, and someone wants to use fetus to prevent that response, no one has any right to dictate with force which side gets to frame the debate. This is just the most recent example. If mods want to engage in debate, they can say whatever they like. But using their position to force the framing of a debate is an abuse of power, and it occurs ALL the time on this site. I could name a dozen opinions which are not allowed to be expressed on this site, and I really think that detracts from the quality of the discussion. Having opposing ideas and opinions is a GOOD thing, even if you think they are wrong or ignorant or whatever. Banning or threatening to ban people for expressing an idea you don't agree with is purely abuse of position.

On November 14 2012 10:42 semantics wrote:
What gets your banned or warned is often direct confederation, just being moody, sassy, sarcastic usually is fine depending on the topic is, but what gets your warned or banned is direct insults. It's a pretty easy line to follow.

Also, this is completely wrong. I've been banned several times for making sarcastic posts.

Using baby with you mean foetus and using murder when you mean abortion etc is nothing more than using intentionally vague or simply incorrect words in order to obfuscate the topic and avoid making an actual point. Furthermore when one of the core issues in any abortion debate is the value of the foetus' life then calling it a baby and refusing to acknowledge that it is not medically defined as a baby is a big issue. I don't think it's too much to ask that people actually argue the point they want to make and part of that is using the same set of words with strictly defined meanings. If you can't agree on a common language then no debate can take place.

However another mod didn't even take the time to attempt to regulate that topic and instead just closed it, presumably because unlike me he felt you guys were incapable of even forming a semblance of a debate. Would you be happier if I did that in future?

Of course. Especially if the alternative is making unilateral decisions about what are and are not legitimate uses of common words.

What if I allowed you to use the term prebirth baby? As long as you're not grouping prebirth and postbirth together with the same catch all term and then going "well of course it's wrong to murder babies" then debate can happen. A common understanding of what words mean is always going to be necessary for communication though.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
KwarK
Profile Blog Joined July 2006
United States44403 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-14 23:17:17
November 14 2012 23:15 GMT
#40
On November 15 2012 08:05 HULKAMANIA wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 15 2012 07:45 Gene wrote:
In order to have an intelligent debate on the issue(hardly a possibility to begin with) you NEED a unilateral definition of the words. Otherwise you will find yourself arguing over semantics.

The merits of a persons argument on the topic is not judged by the connotation of the words he or she uses. That should make the definitions irrelevant. The idea is to make it simpler for the audience to understand EXACTLY the argument rather than have to infer the meaning of a potentially foggy word. This is why usually it is accompanied by an exact number of weeks into pregnancy.

I would agree with you about the importance of shared definitions, but that's just it: they have to be mutual. Something both sides can agree with. Something that was arrived at through discussion, not a one-sided declaration.

And it's naive to think that, in the context of an abortion debate, "fetus" is not an ideologically charged word, which is why you don't get to suddenly declare it the only appropriate word to use.

It's ideologically charged only because one side of the debate insists on claiming that a prebirth baby is the same thing as a postbirth baby because it helps their rhetoric of baby killing. It's a nonsense. You can believe they have exactly the same value and then make your case for the prebirth baby having value without having to call it the same thing as a post birth baby, it's not like recognising that you can use different words for them means that one is intrinsically less valuable than the other, the word simply describes the thing accurately. Meaningful communication is not ideologically charged, it gets in the way of the more extreme pro-life rhetoric but extreme pro-life rhetoric is not meaningful communication.

If you think a three year old toddler has value that's great, you can argue why.
If you think a 20 week old foetus has value, also great, you can argue why.
Recognising the distinction between the two and explaining which it is you are talking about when you make your case does not weaken your case at all unless your case only applies to one of the two and you're making stuff up.
If you are talking about a foetus and they're talking about a foetus then calling it a word which applies exclusively to foetus does absolutely nothing to hinder your discussion but ensures a degree of intellectual honesty through making accurate points.
ModeratorThe angels have the phone box
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