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Original Message From TL.net Bot: You have been temp banned for 2 days by Waxangel. Reason: Show nested quote +On October 16 2012 19:10 NeMeSiS3 wrote:On October 16 2012 18:04 Kinky wrote:
This just goes to show how amazing Life is. He's been able to find success despite having to go to school and dealing with a curfew for practice time. :If anything this goes to show you how low the skill gap of SC2 is with respect to BW.... Imagine in BW if a random kid whos time and practice was negated could just simply play with the best in the world... no game vs game inciting Do not attempt to circumvent this ban by making a new account, or your ban duration will be increased.
my reply
I don't understand the merit of my ban... I voiced an opinion on why I think he's having such a good run for playing so little. I play SC2, I watch the streams and I rank 1300 Masters ... I don't see how my opinion that the skill ceiling is the reason he's doing so well merits a ban, it's a valid assumption and since the majority of professional gamer's agree the skill ceiling isn't as high I again can't understand why I am banned for that. This will come of as facetious but I didn't know in a discussion area that we ban unpopular opinion just because it's unpopular.
Please explain?
I am curious as to why such an opinion would warrant a ban, I messaged looking for an explanation but it never came (which I kind of expected) but I'm curious, are we not allowed to formulate our own conclusion as to why a player might be doing so well under such circumstances or no?
I don't see how commenting on the lower skill ceiling and life's skill equate to game bashing. I quite enjoy SC2....
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Dude, it says right there:
no game vs game inciting
No SC2 vs BW inciting.
Now read your post that you got banned for again.
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United States8476 Posts
Inciting unnecessary BW vs SC2 debates is a very common warning/ban reason. Usually not a ban, but with your general posting history and the fact that you were warned about this before, I'd say that a 2 day ban was very appropriate.
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On October 18 2012 21:42 monk. wrote:
Inciting unnecessary BW vs SC2 debates is a very common warning/ban reason. Usually not a ban, but with your general posting history and the fact that you were warned about this before, I'd say that a 2 day ban was very appropriate.
Alright, I don't see how I was inciting a big debate, are we that tense about the two games we can't have a discussion related to them? Seem's pretty ridiculous.
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United States8476 Posts
On October 18 2012 21:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:42 monk. wrote:
Inciting unnecessary BW vs SC2 debates is a very common warning/ban reason. Usually not a ban, but with your general posting history and the fact that you were warned about this before, I'd say that a 2 day ban was very appropriate. Alright, I don't see how I was inciting a big debate, are we that tense about the two games we can't have a discussion related to them? Seem's pretty ridiculous.
Yes, it was a very widespread problem before we started moderating for it. Every thread for a while would devolve into BW vs SC2 debates.
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Hyrule19201 Posts
See, you're fighting about it right now.
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I was more arguing whether or not I should be banned for saying why I think Life is doing so well. I guess from now on any discussion is off limits, my apologies.
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Flamebaiting is not discussing. The word "opinion" is sadly used very losely these days.
"I like BW more than SC2 and I think it has a way higher skill ceiling" is an opinion.
"If anything this goes to show you how low the skill gap of SC2 is with respect to BW.... Imagine in BW if a random kid whos time and practice was negated could just simply play with the best in the world... " is baiting a flamewar.
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On October 19 2012 03:29 grs wrote:
Flamebaiting is not discussing. The word "opinion" is sadly used very losely these days.
"I like BW more than SC2 and I think it has a way higher skill ceiling" is an opinion.
"If anything this goes to show you how low the skill gap of SC2 is with respect to BW.... Imagine in BW if a random kid whos time and practice was negated could just simply play with the best in the world... " is baiting a flamewar.
Opinion: "If anything this goes to show you how low the skill gap of SC2 with respect to BW"
The difference is that mine opinion related directly to the thread where your assertion didn't.
Saying "I like BW more than sc2 and I think it has a way higher skill ceiling"would have no relevance to the conversation at hand which was discussing Life's current skill with his assumed practice and would have been a much greater bait since it was basically like "SC2 isn't as good, I think so, that's the case, no supporting premises, whatever!".
I then went on to draw comparisons between BW and SC2 to how much practice was required to even play at a B leaguers level of skill which supported my opinion of the low skill ceiling.
So like I said, I think it's just becasue perhaps the community can't maturely discuss the game. I mean half the threads that pop up bitch about SC2 balance and SC2 fading and HOTS being bad but any comparisons to try and conclude why or show that is the case flames to many people.
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You don't seem to see the problem with your post. The phrase "how low the skill gap of SC2 is with respect to BW" is basically criticizing SC2 without any justification whatsoever. You're undermining Life's skill at this game, implying that SC2 is so easy to play that you don't need to spend much time playing to become good at it.
If nothing else, is there a purpose in bringing up a (badly worded) comparison of BW and SC2 in that thread? Why are you making that comparison in the first place? What prompted you to do so?
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On October 18 2012 21:59 NeMeSiS3 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 18 2012 21:42 monk. wrote:
Inciting unnecessary BW vs SC2 debates is a very common warning/ban reason. Usually not a ban, but with your general posting history and the fact that you were warned about this before, I'd say that a 2 day ban was very appropriate. Alright, I don't see how I was inciting a big debate, are we that tense about the two games we can't have a discussion related to them? Seem's pretty ridiculous.
Yes, we are. Have a nice day.
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Lol dude, i just read this and man, are you a grumpy goose for being banned for 2 days from an internet forum for being ignorant.
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I agree with you, but you're fighting a lost cause. I'd say drop it, and just ignore the subject, it's the only smart attitude you can have on tl.
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Meh, most bans here happen for voicing opinions. For example, most of mine are for, in various ways, voicing opinions that people are stupid. Most caster/player bashing bans (well, all) are for voicing an opinion that doesn't contribute anything. Most SC2 strat bans happen for people being of the opinion that they don't need to follow the strat guidelines.
You can turn anything into "having an opinion". That doesn't mean it's allowed to voice all opinions in any way you choose on TL.
If you're a guest in someone else's house, and you start giving them your opinion that their wife is so ugly you wouldn't touch her with a ten foot pole, there might just be unpleasant repercussions.
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On October 19 2012 01:54 NeMeSiS3 wrote:
I was more arguing whether or not I should be banned for saying why I think Life is doing so well. I guess from now on any discussion is off limits, my apologies.
Get explained why post is bad->play victim
The reason that you can't say that SC2 or BW requires more skill than the other is because if you did, then everyone else will, and the thread becomes a flame war.
It's not about suppressing your "freedom of speech". It's about practicality of not having threads blow up as fanboys flame.
Also what tofu said below me
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Hyrule19201 Posts
also fyi you have no freedom of speech on TL
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On October 20 2012 01:40 tofucake wrote:
also fyi you have no freedom of speech on TL
sadly i can only sign that statement. thats basically on what TL-forum is build on.
oh well
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I think that temp ban was a little harsh. He didn't try to incite a flame war between SC2 and BW, he merely said that the reason a player was doing well was because the skill gap is lower from BW to SC2.
Does anybody actually think the skill gap is higher? I think it's a generally held consensus that BW is harder to play than SC2.
If anything, the reason for his ban was a bit off. Maybe player bashing? Even then, it's so mild that it should not have warranted moderator action. His opinion was so mild as well that he also should not have been banned for trying to start a BW vs SC2 discussion.
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On October 20 2012 01:40 tofucake wrote:
also fyi you have no freedom of speech on TL
I really love that, honestly, no sarcasm. 95% of people (number made up) that talk about free speach are just trying to justify taling bullshit to annoy others.
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The elephant in the room article was what exactly?
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I think it woulda been ok if you stopped at "If anything this goes to show you how low the skill gap of SC2 is"
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On October 20 2012 01:40 tofucake wrote:
also fyi you have no freedom of speech on TL
This
And it's only 2 days, why are you complaining?
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On October 20 2012 01:53 bailando wrote:Show nested quote +On October 20 2012 01:40 tofucake wrote:
also fyi you have no freedom of speech on TL sadly i can only sign that statement. thats basically on what TL-forum is build on. oh well
People who post like this don't typically understand what a "political right" is, and how that differs from one's rights in a private community. Take for instance, the US Constitution and its amendments; the rights and liberties granted by these documents apply only to an individual's or group's interaction with the governments of the United States. Team Liquid is not associated with any government in all the world, and any laws similar to the US Constitution's first amendment don't apply. It would need to specifically state that the law in question applied to private communities, in which case you'd likely have a riot against anti-privacy on your hands.
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On October 21 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
The elephant in the room article was what exactly?
A well-written, thought-out opinion piece on SC2 and the pro-scene that attracted controversy because of its nature? It's not comparable to nemesis' post.
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+ Show Spoiler +On October 22 2012 04:49 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
The elephant in the room article was what exactly? A well-written, thought-out opinion piece on SC2 and the pro-scene that attracted controversy because of its nature? It's not comparable to nemesis' post.
Disagreed, it propagated the idea that SC1 players would automatically be better than SC2 players. It was an expansion on the idea that auto-mine, mbs, and other "features" of SC2 made the game easier and thus the pro's less skilled. In my opinion it stoked the flames of this argument if not outright creating it.
no game vs game inciting... that is exactly what that post and article were.
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On October 22 2012 07:02 Rebel_lion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 22 2012 04:49 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
The elephant in the room article was what exactly? A well-written, thought-out opinion piece on SC2 and the pro-scene that attracted controversy because of its nature? It's not comparable to nemesis' post. Disagreed, it propagated the idea that SC1 players would automatically be better than SC2 players. It was an expansion on the idea that auto-mine, mbs, and other "features" of SC2 made the game easier and thus the pro's less skilled. In my opinion it stoked the flames of this argument if not outright creating it. no game vs game inciting... that is exactly what that post and article were.
It's more about how skill transitions between both games. The SC2 players at the time were worse at BW than the remaining BW players, so it's an obvious question wether the BW players would end up being better than them at SC2 if they transitioned as well.
This idea would be equaly valid in the opposite scenario. If A player is better than B player at "low skill game" and B player transitions to another more dificult game and dominates it, would that mean that A player would eventually also be better than B player if he chose to switch?
It was always about the players, it said the "competition was a farce", not that the game was a farce.
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On October 22 2012 07:02 Rebel_lion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 22 2012 04:49 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
The elephant in the room article was what exactly? A well-written, thought-out opinion piece on SC2 and the pro-scene that attracted controversy because of its nature? It's not comparable to nemesis' post. Disagreed, it propagated the idea that SC1 players would automatically be better than SC2 players. It was an expansion on the idea that auto-mine, mbs, and other "features" of SC2 made the game easier and thus the pro's less skilled. In my opinion it stoked the flames of this argument if not outright creating it. no game vs game inciting... that is exactly what that post and article were.
If nemesis was:
1) A mod and respected veteran of teamliquid and
2) Wrote up a large, detailed article on how low the skill gap of SC2 is, in respect to BW
Would he be banned? How an opinion is expressed is a thing of great importance. While Intrigue's FE article was lengthy and expressed various concerns and backed them up with evidence, nemesis' post was but a one liner that would ultimately only incite pointless game vs game arguments, whereas Intrigue's article was presented in such a way as to incite discussion as well.
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On October 22 2012 16:52 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 07:02 Rebel_lion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 22 2012 04:49 marttorn wrote:Show nested quote +On October 21 2012 06:22 Rebel_lion wrote:
The elephant in the room article was what exactly? A well-written, thought-out opinion piece on SC2 and the pro-scene that attracted controversy because of its nature? It's not comparable to nemesis' post. Disagreed, it propagated the idea that SC1 players would automatically be better than SC2 players. It was an expansion on the idea that auto-mine, mbs, and other "features" of SC2 made the game easier and thus the pro's less skilled. In my opinion it stoked the flames of this argument if not outright creating it. no game vs game inciting... that is exactly what that post and article were. If nemesis was: 1) A mod and respected veteran of teamliquid and 2) Wrote up a large, detailed article on how low the skill gap of SC2 is, in respect to BW Would he be banned? How an opinion is expressed is a thing of great importance. While Intrigue's FE article was lengthy and expressed various concerns and backed them up with evidence, nemesis' post was but a one liner that would ultimately only incite pointless game vs game arguments, whereas Intrigue's article was presented in such a way as to incite discussion as well.
If he followed point 2 without point 1, I'll bet that he won't be banned. If he brings up multiple valid points and ultimately comes to a conclusion that BW involved more skill, the I don't think he should be banned. At worst, the thread might get closed for all flaming and off-topic discussion that game vs game threads tend to inspire.
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