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Ahhh, the website feedback forum. The perfect place for a complaint to go largely unseen and become lost. And yet somehow it manages to be less futile than a PM to individual moderators...
I'm getting rather tired of the blatant and repeated double standards on teamliquid when it comes to moderating "country bashing." In thread after thread, some of them extremely remotely associated with America, it never fails to deliver bigoted individuals with offensive generalizations toward my country or the people who live there. I've mentioned this before, and I'm not the only one who has been heard on these forums complaining about this. But the absurdity has been taken to a whole new level with my recent ban.
I want to make it clear I am not complaining about the opinions themselves. I understand there are people out there with such opinions, and I realize they will express it if they are given the chance. It's not the opinions that bother me. What I don't understand is why the moderators tolerate it to such a higher degree than they would tolerate other forms of derailing, bigotry, or stereotypes. Again and again I see topics getting derailed by people posting derogatory comments about the US or it's citizens, and the vast majority of the time it is completely ignored. Post the same exact thing about a country other than the United States, and I promise you the banhammer is swift. It takes something blatantly offensive towards Americans to garner red ink.
And even then such offensive sentiments manage to go ignored... Take this post as an example, on the very first page of the thread "War Authorization in the Defense Authorization Bill."
Voltaire May 13 2011 06:32. Posts 386 PM Profile Quote #
I don't think the US will ever declare war again on a whim like it did in Iraq. At least I hope not, to quote Bill Maher: "I will never put anything past the stupidity of the American people."
He refers to a supposed "stupidity of the American people," and I waited... and waited... nothing happened! I guess I'm just supposed to assume that on a site consisting predominantly of Americans, that someone calls them stupid on the first page of a thread, and no one reported it? Just as I'm to assume no one reported the literally hundreds of other off-topic one-liners, absurd generalizations, and stereotypical criticisms of the United States or its citizens? Good luck making any post referring to Germans or Koreans or Brazilians as "stupid," and seeing if it slips below the moderating radar. I'll bet your chances aren't good.
I mentioned that any topic even remotely associated with the US becomes a target for vitriol. I want to give an example of just such a case. I could look towards a lot of threads to get examples, such as the Osama Bin Laden thread, the Obama Birth Certificate thread... but those would be too easy. Let's go with the Homeless Mom thread.
In case you didn't catch it, the thread was about how a homeless woman was charged with lying to school officials when she used a friends address in a nicer school district as her own, instead of her local homeless shelter, as the law dictates. Of course, it didn't take long for the thread to stop being about a particular event and start being about how messed up America is instead...
On April 24 2011 04:32 SaviorSelf wrote:
On April 23 2011 08:20 frontline wrote:
Typical BS United States :/
fixed, for accuracy
On April 23 2011 08:43 Hypemeup wrote:
USA #1!
USA #1!
USA #1!
This is just sad
On April 23 2011 09:12 Project Psycho wrote:
well theres nothing like the land of the free, eh?
On April 23 2011 09:30 Roggay wrote:
Wow, the law is pretty fucked up in the US. Well, not that I didnt knew that but still.
It seems that the school system is a shame to begin with in the US. Poor people > bad schools, rich people > good schools, caught wanting your son a better school and you are not rich > 20years jail. Way to go america.
On April 23 2011 10:37 HansMoleman wrote:
The land of the free....
On April 23 2011 12:05 chaosfreak11 wrote:
Even china has better laws
On April 23 2011 21:41 Roeder wrote:
On April 23 2011 21:24 BlackFlag wrote:
Europe isn't that much better.
Yes. Yes it is.
Actually it's much better.
On April 24 2011 02:14 Coraz wrote:
only a wicked society goes after homeless people and widows and kicks them while they are down
On April 24 2011 05:53 ZessiM wrote:
The lack of empathy for the poor in the United States is staggering.
On April 24 2011 04:34 Kukaracha wrote:
Rosa Parks should've played by the rules, don't you think? That nigger ain't have the rite' to sit dow' on mah bus!
Let me reiterate that NONE of these posts were warned or banned, despite the fact that all of them fall under ban worthy criteria:
1) Derailing a topic.
2) One-liners, no content posts. (Note, I shortened some, but not all of these examples)
3) Stereotyping or bashing an entire country by generalizing from a sensationalized media story.
"Wicked society, lacking in empathy, hypocritical about freedom, worse than Europe or China..." And this in a thread that was meant to discuss an individual woman breaking an individual law, and probably ending up getting nothing more than a slap on the wrist for lying.
And I really don't want to hear it repeated that I should just report them, or maybe they weren't reported... What I'm referring to isn't the exception, it is the norm. You can view similar threads in the General Section and find the same exact thing. It's gotten to the point where I almost make a game of it. Open a thread on General Forum about something in the US, see how long it takes to find an attack. In fact, I'm gonna play that game right now...
Thread: Gay Pride Month (I didn't have to look further than page 1.)
On June 06 2011 18:44 DavidMcF wrote:
At least Obama is trying to drag America into civilisation
America isn't civilized, check. One liner, check. Warning, .....
Thread: Miami Beach Police Kill Man
Rushingwolf June 08 2011 05:43. Posts 47 PM Profile Quote #
people and especially police in the united states are quite trigger happy
"Americans are trigger happy." Offensive stereotype, check. One liner, check. Warning, ......
Perhaps we should look at how far we have to go to get some red ink. Here's one...
Siphyo Netherlands. June 01 2011 20:32. Posts 13 PM Profile Quote #
Hey look a person's skin and a piece of candy have about the same color, and they're actually acknowledging that! Let's get to work and pull a racism claim out of that.
In the united states of stupid (no offense), this sure is racist.
User was warned for this post
So referring to the "united states of stupid (no offense)" nets you just a warning. Or maybe he was just warned for not reading the OP, since the story was actually from the UK. I can only speculate here. But let's keep all of these examples in mind once we turn to my seemingly mild post.
A thread comes up which discusses something in Europe? I poke a little criticism at the endless bashing and hypocrisy...
Thread: Human Centipede II Banned in the UK
jdseemoreglass United States. June 08 2011 04:31. Posts 1187 PM Profile Blog Quote Edit #
Banning movies from a country now?
lol, and they call themselves the land of the free and the home....
Oh wait, never mind, this is Europe. Time to put on my rose colored glasses.
User was temp banned for this post.
You have been temp banned for 2 days by Aesop.
Reason: Get off the stereotypical euro-bashing.
What? Really?
Get off the stereotypical euro-bashing? Really? Actually, I wasn't bashing euros. I was criticizing people who hypocritically bash America on these forums repeatedly and get away with it. It's not a hard distinction to make. See, if I was bashing euros it would sound something like:
"I wouldn't put this past the stupidity of the UK people" or
"actually america is much better" or
"we need to drag the UK into civilization" or
"the united kingdom of stupid. (no offense)."
And yet none of those individuals were banned, despite the fact that their posts were actually insulting and offensive.
Sent:
I think you misunderstood my post...
I wasn't bashing Europe, I was criticizing people's tendency on TL for bashing America under similar circumstances, and yet having a double standard when such things happen in Europe.
Would you please be willing to reread the context of my post and perhaps consider unbanning me? I didn't mean to be offensive to anyone, and I can edit my post if you like.
-jdseemoreglass
But apparently not, since I didn't get the courtesy of ANY response. I have to thank Aesop at least for adding to the power of my argument by granting it a degree of irony I could never have achieved on my own. I point out a double standard, and he enforces it.
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What a nice barrel of fun to read.
Here we go: Again and again I see topics getting derailed by people posting derogatory comments about the US or it's citizens, and the vast majority of the time it is completely ignored
Completely ignored or completely missed? If it goes unreported and the topic rolls at the speed of mach 5, sometimes staff do miss it. I see you haven't been here for a year, so perhaps you can't report just yet (when you can report, you can see if someone already reported it). In this case, I suggest you just private message a staff member or catch them on IRC and report it. In all my previous experience before I got the report function, I used IRC and the p.m system and they both worked and I got a reply back.
Let's move on: I don't think the US will ever declare war again on a whim like it did in Iraq. At least I hope not, to quote Bill Maher: "I will never put anything past the stupidity of the American people."
This is a quote from someone notable and/or have a level of respect. The user isn't saying it, but has a similar viewpoint. Then again, I could be wrong, and it's practically the same thing. Here's where the post was made: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=222343
It was never reported. In fact, the whole topic doesn't seem to have any mod review or notation, so the whole topic may have been missed/glanced over, I don't know. Just a thought.
1) Derailing a topic.
2) One-liners, no content posts. (Note, I shortened some, but not all of these examples)
3) Stereotyping or bashing an entire country by generalizing from a sensationalized media story.
The rest of your examples are borderline okay. There is no malicious intent on bashing the country, but rather just reactions to a sensationalist topic. I agree that some of those comments should have been reported.
On a last note: And I really don't want to hear it repeated that I should just report them, or maybe they weren't reported... What I'm referring to isn't the exception, it is the norm.
Why not?
Lastly, have you been banned or warned before? This could be a reasoning why that person got warned (first time offense) and you got banned.
*Also, different mods have different levels of tolerance, acceptance of different aspects. It's a point of interpretation
In other words, you're lucky it was Aesop and not Chill or someone a bit... less tolerant? I don't know what the word is.
To be fair, I am agreeing that there is an underlining problem with a lot of Real Issue topics found in the General section and a lot of comments are of the list you suggested.
What do you hope to achieve in this topic? More equivalency for all members in terms of consequences for their poor wording and borderline country-bashing, more moderation and surveillance of these topics or an overhaul in how discussions occur in the General subforum
Hope this clarifies or helps out a few things. Hopefully a staff member intervenes before I submit this post.
P.S: I like the website feedback it shows a lot of people who care about the topic and it actually gets checked on by a lot of staff members (now if only my suggestions actually made a difference or contributed).
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What I expect and what I would like are two different things Torte...
What I expect is for people to get defensive and tell me I am wrong.
What I would like is an acknowledgement that yes, clearly the derailing and bashing in US threads has gotten out of hand, and perhaps we should look in to rectifying that problem. Hell, the entire Osama Bin Laden thread had to be closed by Kennigit and remade because it was such a pit of hatred and conspiracy BS. When it was remade there were people showing up complaining and lamenting their inability to post how the US orchestrated 9/11 or lied about Osama's death.
I would also like to not get banned under dubious reasoning and have my reputation on this forum tarnished, particularly when there are many people getting away with much worse. Now any mod in the future can look at my profile and claim that I have a poor posting history, because I already got banned for "bashing Europeans," when I clearly did no such thing. When I PM a mod explaining the misunderstanding and offering to rectify the situation, I would like to not get ignored as well.
Also Torte, saying that he was just quoting someone else does not grant him the right to express unacceptable comments like that. Otherwise I could easily dig up famous people every time I wanted to express something hateful or offensive.
Other than that, I am glad that you are willing to state that there actually is an underlying problem. We could focus all day long on the specifics and context of a bunch of posts, but hopefully this doesn't turn into that...
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On June 10 2011 06:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:
[ban msg]
What? Really?
Get off the stereotypical euro-bashing? Really? Actually, I wasn't bashing euros. I was criticizing people who hypocritically bash America on these forums repeatedly and get away with it. It's not a hard distinction to make. See, if I was bashing euros it would sound something like:
[examples]
So you didnt want to contribute to the topic at all just bash someone for something completely unrelated? 
Also some of your examples are - strange?
Hypemeup has been reported.
DavidMcF has been reported.
SaviorSelf post not reported.
Also he has been perma banned. There's no record of the perm ban in the Automated Ban List (which I can find) - so it wasnt post specific but overall behaviour. Maybe the US-bashing was part of it?
Other people who are neither reported nor banned:
Project Psycho
Roggay
HansMoleman
chaosfreak11
Roeder
Coraz
ZessiM
Kukaracha
Rushingwolf
So out of 12 posts you find offensive and would report (I think you would?) only 2 have been reported (and not punished). Maybe the "the posts just havent been reported" excuse is actually no excuse.
That and your standards seem to differ heavily from the standards of the people who report.
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What I don't understand is why you got banned for "stereotypical Euro-bashing" when it seems that the cool thing on TL is to bash America (usually baselessly, I may add), and yet most of those people (like the ones you quoted) get a warning at most, and most of them don't even get moderation.
Unbiased moderation, am I right?
Edit: I've been wanting to make a thread just like this for a long time now. Congrats to you, OP. You have my eternal respect o/
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United States24633 Posts
On June 10 2011 06:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:Ahhh, the website feedback forum. The perfect place for a complaint to go largely unseen and become lost. And yet somehow it manages to be less futile than a PM to individual moderators...
Ah this made me want to help you very much.
I don't think staff are going to look at you now and say "oh this guy is a bad poster; he has a 2 day temp ban for euro bashing!" They are gonna say "hm this guy has 3 warnings and 2 temp bans."
There's nothing wrong with pointing out that your post was misunderstood. I also agree with you there is an America-bashing problem on TL. As others have said don't assume a lack of moderation means TL condones specific posts. Being proactive is the best way to help.
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
Do you have a report button?
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Friday, 23rd of July 2010
Soon he will!
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On June 10 2011 10:15 Zocat wrote:So you didnt want to contribute to the topic at all just bash someone for something completely unrelated?
Hmmm... Or maybe I was just hoping I would fall under these apparently large lists of "people who aren't reported" or "people who are reported but not banned." When I see all these other posts, clearly I am not thinking that I'm going to receive moderator action for posting something so innocuous in comparison.
On June 10 2011 11:28 micronesia wrote:
Ah this made me want to help you very much.
How exactly are you supposed to help me? Don't worry about me, I'm just a guy with 3 warnings and a 2 temp bans. That makes future banning simpler than the one I just received, I suppose.
On June 10 2011 11:28 micronesia wrote:
I don't think staff are going to look at you now and say "oh this guy is a bad poster; he has a 2 day temp ban for euro bashing!" They are gonna say "hm this guy has 3 warnings and 2 temp bans."
Right... and that's exactly my point. Mods aren't going to look at the context of my ban. They are just gonna see the ban. And it sickens me that my history could be worse than the guy calling a country stupid and simply not getting reported for it, or having the report go ignored.
On June 10 2011 11:44 Kennigit wrote:
Do you have a report button?
Uhh... no. Can't you tell that simply by clicking "profile"?
I kinda find it hard to blame this problem on the community for not reporting people. I'm not sure what percentage of daily TL users these days even have a report button. But I was able to skim through these threads in a matter of minutes and find all of these posts. I'm sure mods are collectively browsing these forums to a greater extent than I am... So either I am wrong in that they don't read the forums at all, or they are simply passing by these comments that pop up in every other general thread.
And honestly, I don't care if they decide to just let such comments fly... that's perfectly fine with me. But when they find my post that is tame in comparison and decide to instantly temp-ban me for "euro-bashing," the hypocrisy of it all becomes a little too much to stomach.
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United States24633 Posts
On June 10 2011 12:37 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 11:28 micronesia wrote:
Ah this made me want to help you very much.
How exactly are you supposed to help me? Don't worry about me, I'm just a guy with 3 warnings and a 2 temp bans. That makes future banning simpler than the one I just received, I suppose.
Um, we could edit your moderation history to accurately reflect what offences you did/didn't commit? But I won't worry about you. You seem more interested in martyring yourself than fixing any injustice you may have experienced.
Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 11:28 micronesia wrote:
I don't think staff are going to look at you now and say "oh this guy is a bad poster; he has a 2 day temp ban for euro bashing!" They are gonna say "hm this guy has 3 warnings and 2 temp bans."
Right... and that's exactly my point. Mods aren't going to look at the context of my ban. They are just gonna see the ban. And it sickens me that my history could be worse than the guy calling a country stupid and simply not getting reported for it, or having the report go ignored.
Your history should reflect exactly what you've done wrong (independent of what other people have done wrong).
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Osaka27139 Posts
If you are just going to make snide remarks to the staff that takes the time to respond to your topic, why did you bother making it? Do you feel better now that you have been a jerk about things?
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On June 10 2011 13:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
If you are just going to make snide remarks to the staff that takes the time to respond to your topic, why did you bother making it? Do you feel better now that you have been a jerk about things?
I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to firmly get my point across so it isn't swept aside and disregarded with simple statements like "Do you have a report button?"
That's exactly the kind of indifferent response that led to this situation in the first place, when I was nonchalantly banned and had my PM's ignored, so I apologize if I'm a little bitter about it. There is a clear contradiction and inconsistency when contrasting the reason and manner of my ban with the general malaise towards countless more offensive posts. I'm using the feedback forum since neither posts nor PM's were ever acknowledged. This feedback isn't about me or my responses in this thread, it's about improving the quality of the forums and the consistency of the moderation, and neither will be achieved by telling users to just report better, particularly if they haven't been given a report button.
I used the only means available to me to try and rectify this situation, by PMing a moderator, and that was a waste of time. If you notice, my message to the mod was not snide at all. I was very courteous, because I had not yet been ignored or had my time wasted or been kicked from the site for two days or had my history tarnished.
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Osaka27139 Posts
On June 10 2011 14:53 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2011 13:11 Manifesto7 wrote:
If you are just going to make snide remarks to the staff that takes the time to respond to your topic, why did you bother making it? Do you feel better now that you have been a jerk about things? I'm not trying to be a jerk, I'm just trying to firmly get my point across so it isn't swept aside and disregarded with simple statements like "Do you have a report button?"
I would hazard that from the reaction you have received you failed to accomplish this.
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Zurich15324 Posts
Meanwhile, on the other side of the Atlantic, TL is known for being completely biased towards America and anything criticizing the US is supposedly met with swift bans. To quote a frustrated banned user: "They are a bunch of republicans. Any time you post politically in a poitical thread and you try to argue against them you get flamed, warned, banned"
Ahh, perspective.
People always see a double standard against their own positions. The moderators certainly do what they can, but we don't see everything and we also don't want to act on absolutely everything. Some of your examples might be offensive to you but don't warrant moderation action.
That said I suggest you use your report function. If you don't have one you can PM a mod about offensive posts. You will need to drop the attitude you display in your opening line though.
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Canada13387 Posts
Its as simple as people not using the report button. Also, sometimes some threads just dont interest people who don't want to get involved in a shit storm of stupid posts since when they show up they spend 20 minutes hitting the report button.
Its just bad luck that these posts fall through the sieve. Its not a double standard its just an unfortunate situation. When you get a report button you can help to keep these boards clean of biggoted and uninformed comments. Until then just hope and wait and if something is especially bad PM the mods the post in question.
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On June 10 2011 18:36 zatic wrote:
Meanwhile, on the other side of the Atlantic, TL is known for being completely biased towards America and anything criticizing the US is supposedly met with swift bans. To quote a frustrated banned user: "They are a bunch of republicans. Any time you post politically in a poitical thread and you try to argue against them you get flamed, warned, banned"
Ahh, perspective.
People always see a double standard against their own positions. The moderators certainly do what they can, but we don't see everything and we also don't want to act on absolutely everything. Some of your examples might be offensive to you but don't warrant moderation action.
That said I suggest you use your report function. If you don't have one you can PM a mod about offensive posts. You will need to drop the attitude you display in your opening line though.
That's not simply a difference of perspective. It would be extremely simple to explain to those users that criticism of the US is perfectly fine so long as it is done in the proper manner and place. People aren't getting warned or banned for making political statements, they are getting warned or banned for derailing topics or making their arguments in an unnecessarily aggressive or stereotypical way.
If you can tell me you honestly think that
1) My post warranted moderation action more than the examples above
2) The reasoning for my ban was perfectly fine
3) Ignoring the PM I sent is the proper thing to do
4) Any inconsistencies in moderation are completely the fault of poor user reporting
then I will shut up and go away. But I don't think any reasonable person could take a good look at this situation and agree with all of those points.
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wow this is legitimately* something to talk about :O
Why am i here?
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On June 10 2011 06:55 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Ahhh, the website feedback forum. The perfect place for a complaint to go largely unseen and become lost. And yet somehow it manages to be less futile than a PM to individual moderators...
You seems to assume that it will not get lost in the general forum section, there have been so many of these type of threads, and most of them all get lost. ( only one to get attention was Idra's ban, but Idra has lots of fans) People just don't care about these rants, people don't care about others ranting about moderation, it not perfect but TL is still one of the best online communities on the web.
Posting it in the website feeback section is correct, so the people who do not care do not have to read it and people who do can.
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Different moderators have different standards, you have moderators that close a thread posting their opinions and resources to contact them, and then you have moderators posting "No one gives a fuck" as a closing comment (they has good reasons, it's just that they posts that, which cracks me up sometimes lol).
I see intentional double posts a lot of times (excluding stream threads), going like
Comment 1: Haha I can't believe it
Comment 2: Lol jk this is awesome!
You can find a lot of US insults just by going to the "Illegal to dance in the US" thread that was closed a few weeks ago.
It depends really, I think TeamLiquid should set up a guide line for penalties so they can stick to their word, I get temp banned for a week for minor insults to MLG (which I still believe were legitimate), and for some reason that guy called America stupid and gets banned for 2 days. I propose setting a guideline, e.g. Racial Insults = 3 days, Player Bashing= 2 days (considering first offense), and etc.
Obviously you can alter it, just contact the player with your reasons why. I think users deserve the right to know fully why they got banned or why the thread got closed, not a PM saying "Gtfo of here and grow up."
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Maybe I am missing something but this seems like a case of two wrongs not making a right?
I understand you are asking for consistency but you don't help your cause by getting righteous about it. If you believe you have been wrongly banned then a PM is the place to raise it. If you get no response try a different mod.
If you find posts that you believe show a double-standard PM a mod. I constantly request threads closed or posts to be reviewed. Often I am wrong and the thread remains but I am sure the mods would rather that than have an apathetic community.
If you believe that what you wrote warranted a ban then what other people wrote is irrelevant. If you believe what you wrote does not deserve a ban, the same logic applies. What specifically about your post redeems it?
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EPT
