|
On October 23 2010 06:38 swuSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 06:34 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:31 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:27 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:24 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:22 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:20 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:16 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:13 swuSC2 wrote: I'm slightly confused. If they are keeping the MMR then that means players will still play players around their level. But does that mean they are making it that players with higher MMR wins more points per win and less points lost per loss? Because if they don't then higher level players will either have a harder time getting Ladder points and/or ladder points between lower level players and higher level players would be similar. The higher your MMR the longer you will be getting good points per win when you are starting fresh at 0 ladder points. In WoW when a fresh season starts you are getting 50-30 points per win until you get close in rating to your MMR. The numbers may be slightly different for sc2, but sc2 also has a bonus pool that will increase the rate of climbing dramatically. The issue is for the like the first 1000+ points you played through the lesser players because everyone had a low MMR so if you were good you got a good base to start off with and you plateaued when you got to your level. But if the MMR stays and you start playing with people of your level you already start at your plateaued level. If everyone starts off fresh with 0 points in season 2 (which they will) and you have 2900 mmr (say you are huk or something) and you play qxc (let's assume he will also have a very high mmr) you will gain big points for much longer, than if you were playing people with crap mmr. Someone with 1500 mmr isn't going to give you good points for any significant length of time if you are at 2900 mmr. This is the issue in the current system. If QXC plays Huks if Huk wins he gains around +8 and if he plays him again he loses around -8. So if they start off already at facing each other and trade off they don't get substantial points compared to lower levels playing each other. You are forgetting the fact that they are already at a ladder point value that is close to their MMR. They are not at 0 points starting fresh. You are also not factoring in the fact that bonus pool builds up, if they go 50% vs each other with bonus pool included even at a ladder point value close to their MMR, they would still both be climbing. Let alone when they are both at 0 points but have very high 2500+ mmr. None of you people seem to understand. I'm saying that Ladder points at lower level goes up almost exactly the same as they do at higher level if your automatically paired based on your hidden MMR right away. 1) Bonus pool doesn't factor in. Everyone gets Bonus pool. 2) If everyone keeps there MMR and Ladder Points reset. Qxc will play Huk but since points gained is based on MMR and their MMR difference is miminal their points gained/lost per game will be the same as if I were to play someone nearly the bottom of the Top 200 where I currently am. No what you don't seem to understand is that both ladder points and MMR from both players are factored in to determine point gain and loss. The only reason the climb seemed slow in season 1 is because everyone was not only starting with fresh points, but also fresh MMR, which also needed time to inflate. Back when huk was the highest on the ladder with 700 points, his MMR was probably at around 1k, because there had been no established data, now that things have inflated a ton, his points and his mmr are both healthy at 2500+ I'm saying it "Didn't Take Long" in Season 1. It took long for only the people who originally started right on release but everyone else gained points mad fast based on them. That's why you see 500 Bonus Pool starts now a days but during release you started with like around 0. Points gained if not based off Ladder Points its almost 100% based on MMR. Many many games people get 6 points beating someone 100-200 ladder points higher than them. The only way to start a new season with 0 Ladder Points but current MMR is to give people with higher MMR larger bonus pool.
Sorry man you are just completely misinformed on this. It factors in ladder points + mmr for both players, the only reason this isn't more apparent to people yet is because season 1 is used to establish MMRs for everyone, the system can't work properly til that happens.
If you played wow arena you would understand....
What is going to happen next season is players with high mmr are going to be getting good pointers for a longer period of time up til they get closer to their MMR with their ladder points.
A 1500 mmr player will taper off into normalized points sooner than a 2900 mmr player will.
|
On October 23 2010 06:38 Borked wrote: blizzard should have a below-limit iq for asking questions .. they wasted so many questions I can't believe it I am really angry.
"I won and I got 200 points. /discuss" ARE YOU SERIOUS? i know most the answers where.
Use your brain.
When should i make drone or units!?
drones when army has 50 more units than you and army when hes droning up him self ofc.
|
On October 23 2010 06:35 H0i wrote:Any info on what they said exactly? Any changes coming up?
Read the original post again.
No balance changes were announced if that's what you mean. I don't think they're going to. It was just the main balance devs answering questions.
|
On October 23 2010 06:38 Borked wrote: blizzard should have a below-limit iq for asking questions .. they wasted so many questions I can't believe it I am really angry.
"I won and I got 200 points. /discuss" ARE YOU SERIOUS?
hahah that was classic. I seriously am still wondering what he possibly could have expected them to say.
|
Was there any date for the release of the new leagues? Would give motivation to ladder...
|
On October 23 2010 06:41 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 06:38 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:34 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:31 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:27 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:24 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:22 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:20 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:16 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:13 swuSC2 wrote: I'm slightly confused. If they are keeping the MMR then that means players will still play players around their level. But does that mean they are making it that players with higher MMR wins more points per win and less points lost per loss? Because if they don't then higher level players will either have a harder time getting Ladder points and/or ladder points between lower level players and higher level players would be similar. The higher your MMR the longer you will be getting good points per win when you are starting fresh at 0 ladder points. In WoW when a fresh season starts you are getting 50-30 points per win until you get close in rating to your MMR. The numbers may be slightly different for sc2, but sc2 also has a bonus pool that will increase the rate of climbing dramatically. The issue is for the like the first 1000+ points you played through the lesser players because everyone had a low MMR so if you were good you got a good base to start off with and you plateaued when you got to your level. But if the MMR stays and you start playing with people of your level you already start at your plateaued level. If everyone starts off fresh with 0 points in season 2 (which they will) and you have 2900 mmr (say you are huk or something) and you play qxc (let's assume he will also have a very high mmr) you will gain big points for much longer, than if you were playing people with crap mmr. Someone with 1500 mmr isn't going to give you good points for any significant length of time if you are at 2900 mmr. This is the issue in the current system. If QXC plays Huks if Huk wins he gains around +8 and if he plays him again he loses around -8. So if they start off already at facing each other and trade off they don't get substantial points compared to lower levels playing each other. You are forgetting the fact that they are already at a ladder point value that is close to their MMR. They are not at 0 points starting fresh. You are also not factoring in the fact that bonus pool builds up, if they go 50% vs each other with bonus pool included even at a ladder point value close to their MMR, they would still both be climbing. Let alone when they are both at 0 points but have very high 2500+ mmr. None of you people seem to understand. I'm saying that Ladder points at lower level goes up almost exactly the same as they do at higher level if your automatically paired based on your hidden MMR right away. 1) Bonus pool doesn't factor in. Everyone gets Bonus pool. 2) If everyone keeps there MMR and Ladder Points reset. Qxc will play Huk but since points gained is based on MMR and their MMR difference is miminal their points gained/lost per game will be the same as if I were to play someone nearly the bottom of the Top 200 where I currently am. No what you don't seem to understand is that both ladder points and MMR from both players are factored in to determine point gain and loss. The only reason the climb seemed slow in season 1 is because everyone was not only starting with fresh points, but also fresh MMR, which also needed time to inflate. Back when huk was the highest on the ladder with 700 points, his MMR was probably at around 1k, because there had been no established data, now that things have inflated a ton, his points and his mmr are both healthy at 2500+ I'm saying it "Didn't Take Long" in Season 1. It took long for only the people who originally started right on release but everyone else gained points mad fast based on them. That's why you see 500 Bonus Pool starts now a days but during release you started with like around 0. Points gained if not based off Ladder Points its almost 100% based on MMR. Many many games people get 6 points beating someone 100-200 ladder points higher than them. The only way to start a new season with 0 Ladder Points but current MMR is to give people with higher MMR larger bonus pool. Sorry man you are just completely misinformed on this. It factors in ladder points + mmr for both players, the only reason this isn't more apparent to people yet is because season 1 is used to establish MMRs for everyone, the system can't work properly til that happens. If you played wow arena you would understand.... What is going to happen next season is players with high mmr are going to be getting good pointers for a longer period of time up til they get closer to their MMR with their ladder points. A 1500 mmr player will taper off into normalized points sooner than a 2900 mmr player will.
If thats true then why is there such a big difference in like half the players in the Blizzard Top 200 and the Ladder Points Top 200? David kim has like 60 rank differential between his Blizzard Rank and Points Rank.
|
|
On October 23 2010 06:42 Maaku wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 06:38 Borked wrote: blizzard should have a below-limit iq for asking questions .. they wasted so many questions I can't believe it I am really angry.
"I won and I got 200 points. /discuss" ARE YOU SERIOUS? i know most the answers where. Use your brain. When should i make drone or units!? drones when army has 50 more units than you and army when hes droning up him self ofc.
Those at least were legitimate, if poor questions given the topic of the panel.
The "herp derp how come i got them two hunnert points for one game" one had windex-covered tongue written all over it.
|
On October 23 2010 06:43 swuSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 06:41 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:38 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:34 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:31 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:27 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:24 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:22 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:20 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:16 robertdinh wrote: [quote]
The higher your MMR the longer you will be getting good points per win when you are starting fresh at 0 ladder points.
In WoW when a fresh season starts you are getting 50-30 points per win until you get close in rating to your MMR. The numbers may be slightly different for sc2, but sc2 also has a bonus pool that will increase the rate of climbing dramatically. The issue is for the like the first 1000+ points you played through the lesser players because everyone had a low MMR so if you were good you got a good base to start off with and you plateaued when you got to your level. But if the MMR stays and you start playing with people of your level you already start at your plateaued level. If everyone starts off fresh with 0 points in season 2 (which they will) and you have 2900 mmr (say you are huk or something) and you play qxc (let's assume he will also have a very high mmr) you will gain big points for much longer, than if you were playing people with crap mmr. Someone with 1500 mmr isn't going to give you good points for any significant length of time if you are at 2900 mmr. This is the issue in the current system. If QXC plays Huks if Huk wins he gains around +8 and if he plays him again he loses around -8. So if they start off already at facing each other and trade off they don't get substantial points compared to lower levels playing each other. You are forgetting the fact that they are already at a ladder point value that is close to their MMR. They are not at 0 points starting fresh. You are also not factoring in the fact that bonus pool builds up, if they go 50% vs each other with bonus pool included even at a ladder point value close to their MMR, they would still both be climbing. Let alone when they are both at 0 points but have very high 2500+ mmr. None of you people seem to understand. I'm saying that Ladder points at lower level goes up almost exactly the same as they do at higher level if your automatically paired based on your hidden MMR right away. 1) Bonus pool doesn't factor in. Everyone gets Bonus pool. 2) If everyone keeps there MMR and Ladder Points reset. Qxc will play Huk but since points gained is based on MMR and their MMR difference is miminal their points gained/lost per game will be the same as if I were to play someone nearly the bottom of the Top 200 where I currently am. No what you don't seem to understand is that both ladder points and MMR from both players are factored in to determine point gain and loss. The only reason the climb seemed slow in season 1 is because everyone was not only starting with fresh points, but also fresh MMR, which also needed time to inflate. Back when huk was the highest on the ladder with 700 points, his MMR was probably at around 1k, because there had been no established data, now that things have inflated a ton, his points and his mmr are both healthy at 2500+ I'm saying it "Didn't Take Long" in Season 1. It took long for only the people who originally started right on release but everyone else gained points mad fast based on them. That's why you see 500 Bonus Pool starts now a days but during release you started with like around 0. Points gained if not based off Ladder Points its almost 100% based on MMR. Many many games people get 6 points beating someone 100-200 ladder points higher than them. The only way to start a new season with 0 Ladder Points but current MMR is to give people with higher MMR larger bonus pool. Sorry man you are just completely misinformed on this. It factors in ladder points + mmr for both players, the only reason this isn't more apparent to people yet is because season 1 is used to establish MMRs for everyone, the system can't work properly til that happens. If you played wow arena you would understand.... What is going to happen next season is players with high mmr are going to be getting good pointers for a longer period of time up til they get closer to their MMR with their ladder points. A 1500 mmr player will taper off into normalized points sooner than a 2900 mmr player will. If thats true then why is there such a big difference in like half the players in the Blizzard Top 200 and the Ladder Points Top 200? David kim has like 60 rank differential between his Blizzard Rank and Points Rank.
Because not everyone with high MMR plays as much as him and the ladder is designed to inflate in points over time? As well as the fact that we still keep accruing bonus pool.
The flaw in blizzards ladder, especially with bonus pool making inflation that much more drastic, is that it actually benefits you after you get high ladder points, to not let your MMR inflate too high. The higher your MMR gets once you are already at the top of the ladder, the weaker points you gain per match. But that only holds true once you are so far ahead of the curve that the system has trouble pairing you vs people with similar MMR. At that point you start getting very few points per win, but lose a lot per loss, because your MMR and points are already so high. It would be better at that point to have an MMR that is a little lower so that you can find more opponents that the system considers closer matches to reward you better points.
|
On October 23 2010 06:43 Inori wrote: I really hope they won't use divisions for M and GM leagues.
I can see them having divisions in M, probably not GM.
|
Does boxer play tomorrow?
|
On October 23 2010 06:46 DooMDash wrote: Does boxer play tomorrow?
I think he plays today at 8pm PST.. or atleast thats what I heard in the opening ceremony...
|
|
On October 23 2010 06:45 robertdinh wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 06:43 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:41 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:38 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:34 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:31 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:27 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:24 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:22 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:20 swuSC2 wrote: [quote]
The issue is for the like the first 1000+ points you played through the lesser players because everyone had a low MMR so if you were good you got a good base to start off with and you plateaued when you got to your level. But if the MMR stays and you start playing with people of your level you already start at your plateaued level. If everyone starts off fresh with 0 points in season 2 (which they will) and you have 2900 mmr (say you are huk or something) and you play qxc (let's assume he will also have a very high mmr) you will gain big points for much longer, than if you were playing people with crap mmr. Someone with 1500 mmr isn't going to give you good points for any significant length of time if you are at 2900 mmr. This is the issue in the current system. If QXC plays Huks if Huk wins he gains around +8 and if he plays him again he loses around -8. So if they start off already at facing each other and trade off they don't get substantial points compared to lower levels playing each other. You are forgetting the fact that they are already at a ladder point value that is close to their MMR. They are not at 0 points starting fresh. You are also not factoring in the fact that bonus pool builds up, if they go 50% vs each other with bonus pool included even at a ladder point value close to their MMR, they would still both be climbing. Let alone when they are both at 0 points but have very high 2500+ mmr. None of you people seem to understand. I'm saying that Ladder points at lower level goes up almost exactly the same as they do at higher level if your automatically paired based on your hidden MMR right away. 1) Bonus pool doesn't factor in. Everyone gets Bonus pool. 2) If everyone keeps there MMR and Ladder Points reset. Qxc will play Huk but since points gained is based on MMR and their MMR difference is miminal their points gained/lost per game will be the same as if I were to play someone nearly the bottom of the Top 200 where I currently am. No what you don't seem to understand is that both ladder points and MMR from both players are factored in to determine point gain and loss. The only reason the climb seemed slow in season 1 is because everyone was not only starting with fresh points, but also fresh MMR, which also needed time to inflate. Back when huk was the highest on the ladder with 700 points, his MMR was probably at around 1k, because there had been no established data, now that things have inflated a ton, his points and his mmr are both healthy at 2500+ I'm saying it "Didn't Take Long" in Season 1. It took long for only the people who originally started right on release but everyone else gained points mad fast based on them. That's why you see 500 Bonus Pool starts now a days but during release you started with like around 0. Points gained if not based off Ladder Points its almost 100% based on MMR. Many many games people get 6 points beating someone 100-200 ladder points higher than them. The only way to start a new season with 0 Ladder Points but current MMR is to give people with higher MMR larger bonus pool. Sorry man you are just completely misinformed on this. It factors in ladder points + mmr for both players, the only reason this isn't more apparent to people yet is because season 1 is used to establish MMRs for everyone, the system can't work properly til that happens. If you played wow arena you would understand.... What is going to happen next season is players with high mmr are going to be getting good pointers for a longer period of time up til they get closer to their MMR with their ladder points. A 1500 mmr player will taper off into normalized points sooner than a 2900 mmr player will. If thats true then why is there such a big difference in like half the players in the Blizzard Top 200 and the Ladder Points Top 200? David kim has like 60 rank differential between his Blizzard Rank and Points Rank. Because not everyone with high MMR plays as much as him and the ladder is designed to inflate in points over time? As well as the fact that we still keep accruing bonus pool.
So what your saying is when Qxc beats Huk he is going to get like 22 points and if he loses he only loses like 8? and people in lower levels stop getting the huge points per win and less points per lose faster? If thats the case they are using a new system and it is definitely not the current one. A semi-problematic issue is that players at high MMR ratings are going to not win as many straight matches while people that weren't properly normalized before the reset can still plow through the lower levels and end up like with a ton more points then higher level players in the beginning.
|
Nice panel, anyone got a link to the uploaded panel video?
|
The zerg guy clearly doesn't watch day9.
|
On October 23 2010 06:48 Zyd wrote: Nice panel, anyone got a link to the uploaded panel video?
haha blizzard failed big time. no sc2 ..
|
On October 23 2010 06:47 Inori wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 06:45 kojinshugi wrote:On October 23 2010 06:43 Inori wrote: I really hope they won't use divisions for M and GM leagues. I can see them having divisions in M, probably not GM. They said that they use Divisions so people in lower brackets could feel special about being #50 in random division, instead of 2525632365 in Bronze. I'm quite sure nobody good enough to hit M is going to care about this carebear crap. M level players care about how they are compared to other M players and only way to see that is with globalized ranking.
A decent solution would be to show both, imo. There's gonna be too many M players for just a single leaderboard. I can very well imagine that even M level players would be a little less motivated battling for North American M league positions 2415-2427.
|
On October 23 2010 06:48 swuSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 23 2010 06:45 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:43 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:41 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:38 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:34 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:31 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:27 robertdinh wrote:On October 23 2010 06:24 swuSC2 wrote:On October 23 2010 06:22 robertdinh wrote: [quote]
If everyone starts off fresh with 0 points in season 2 (which they will) and you have 2900 mmr (say you are huk or something) and you play qxc (let's assume he will also have a very high mmr) you will gain big points for much longer, than if you were playing people with crap mmr. Someone with 1500 mmr isn't going to give you good points for any significant length of time if you are at 2900 mmr. This is the issue in the current system. If QXC plays Huks if Huk wins he gains around +8 and if he plays him again he loses around -8. So if they start off already at facing each other and trade off they don't get substantial points compared to lower levels playing each other. You are forgetting the fact that they are already at a ladder point value that is close to their MMR. They are not at 0 points starting fresh. You are also not factoring in the fact that bonus pool builds up, if they go 50% vs each other with bonus pool included even at a ladder point value close to their MMR, they would still both be climbing. Let alone when they are both at 0 points but have very high 2500+ mmr. None of you people seem to understand. I'm saying that Ladder points at lower level goes up almost exactly the same as they do at higher level if your automatically paired based on your hidden MMR right away. 1) Bonus pool doesn't factor in. Everyone gets Bonus pool. 2) If everyone keeps there MMR and Ladder Points reset. Qxc will play Huk but since points gained is based on MMR and their MMR difference is miminal their points gained/lost per game will be the same as if I were to play someone nearly the bottom of the Top 200 where I currently am. No what you don't seem to understand is that both ladder points and MMR from both players are factored in to determine point gain and loss. The only reason the climb seemed slow in season 1 is because everyone was not only starting with fresh points, but also fresh MMR, which also needed time to inflate. Back when huk was the highest on the ladder with 700 points, his MMR was probably at around 1k, because there had been no established data, now that things have inflated a ton, his points and his mmr are both healthy at 2500+ I'm saying it "Didn't Take Long" in Season 1. It took long for only the people who originally started right on release but everyone else gained points mad fast based on them. That's why you see 500 Bonus Pool starts now a days but during release you started with like around 0. Points gained if not based off Ladder Points its almost 100% based on MMR. Many many games people get 6 points beating someone 100-200 ladder points higher than them. The only way to start a new season with 0 Ladder Points but current MMR is to give people with higher MMR larger bonus pool. Sorry man you are just completely misinformed on this. It factors in ladder points + mmr for both players, the only reason this isn't more apparent to people yet is because season 1 is used to establish MMRs for everyone, the system can't work properly til that happens. If you played wow arena you would understand.... What is going to happen next season is players with high mmr are going to be getting good pointers for a longer period of time up til they get closer to their MMR with their ladder points. A 1500 mmr player will taper off into normalized points sooner than a 2900 mmr player will. If thats true then why is there such a big difference in like half the players in the Blizzard Top 200 and the Ladder Points Top 200? David kim has like 60 rank differential between his Blizzard Rank and Points Rank. Because not everyone with high MMR plays as much as him and the ladder is designed to inflate in points over time? As well as the fact that we still keep accruing bonus pool. So what your saying is when Qxc beats Huk he is going to get like 22 points and if he loses he only loses like 8? and people in lower levels stop getting the huge points per win and less points per lose faster? If thats the case they are using a new system and it is definitely not the current one. A semi-problematic issue is that players at high MMR ratings are going to not win as many straight matches while people that weren't properly normalized before the reset can still plow through the lower levels and end up like with a ton more points then higher level players in the beginning.
It's going to be more like QXC and huk have a very high MMR and a new season starts for example. They will be getting good points from each other for a very long time (above the amount they would get if their ladder rating was already close to their mmr). Because other people have lower mmr, they taper off faster because they close in on their MMR faster.
It is the EXACT same system that is currently being used, it was only different early on here because no one had established those high MMRs yet. It takes a season for the system to start working it's magic. This is how it was in WoW as well when they first implemented the MMR system.
As far your semi-problematic issue, that simply isn't the case, because people who would get matched vs newbs would have a similarly newbish MMR. If they have a newbish MMR their large point gain will taper off faster until they increase their MMR to a much higher level. And their MMR won't increase rapidly by newbstomping.
Huk can go 50% vs other high MMR players next season and still climb much more rapidly than people that are much lower than him on MMR.
|
PLEASE ask about LAN mode..
Teamliquid users at Blizzcon - you're my only hope.
YES! som1 ask this at the Multiplayer panel tomorrow, Cmon cmon cmon
|
|
|
|