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Great writeup, I've been seeing you were trying to get your point across for quite a while, hopefully people will understand now.
The banner was... interesting?:-p
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nice banner.
bleh this sounds like they fucked up SCII and we gotta remake it. *some poor sap walks in to tell us we need to wait till 2012*
im sure the larva inject thing can be countered by some advantages given to the toss.
remember when spawning pools were 150min, 4pool was deadly since you needed each drone to mine 3ish times and then pool goes down and out comes lings. they fixed that to 200 minerals.
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Very good write-up, great work. I believe myself that the macro mechanics really fit in with all of the three races' respective themes and feel.
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On September 12 2009 06:27 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 06:23 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:19 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:16 Lobbo wrote:
Cool, but dosent this apply to bw also? A probe can scout Zerg, and see the little maggots waiting, and when the probe dies, Zerg has the same option to make attacking units or pure drones. I'm a bit clueless so please bother with my question or rather rant.
But this never happends in bw because you never wait as Zerg to build from your larvae. But theoretical it's the same situation. In SC2 the queen delivers larvae 4 at a time. Yeah I understand that. But with one queen you can have 4 extra hydra per 25 seconds rite? How is this still different from when a Terran or Protoss scout Zerg in bw? The same apply with the larvae question of what did the Zerg use them for. Obviously bw is played to look like it does today. But the same issue Had to be the same when SC came out. (with knowing what zerg used the larvae for) You're not saving larvae at all. You get the usual 3 and use them instantly as they come. Then, 25 seconds after you inject larvae with the queen, you get 4 more coming together. My point is that if you play optimally, using larvae instantly everytime, you still have 4 larvae coming together every 25 seconds. You don't have to save anything. They come like that - 4 together.
Yeah I know that, seems it is some sort of misunderstanding here of what I mean. If protoss scouts zerg in bw, and then dies, lets say zerg has 3 hatches. Protoss scouted drones poping from two of them, the last hatchery did in fact have hydras on it's way. So in this scenario the same apply as this but with LOWER number ofc "In Starcraft II, your probe arrives at Zerg's base to find 2 hatcheries and a hydralisk den. Two minutes after the probe dies, Zerg could theoretically have 20 hydralisks or 30 drones, and it's impossible for you to know." It is the same now, but with the number 9 per round of 3 hatches. Correct? or am I wrong?
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Calgary25957 Posts
Looking at the graph, it appears the queen is injecting 7 larvae instead of 4. I will try to fix that and repost the images.
Update: Made a mistake, it's injecting 4.
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Calgary25957 Posts
On September 12 2009 06:33 Lobbo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 06:27 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:23 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:19 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:16 Lobbo wrote:
Cool, but dosent this apply to bw also? A probe can scout Zerg, and see the little maggots waiting, and when the probe dies, Zerg has the same option to make attacking units or pure drones. I'm a bit clueless so please bother with my question or rather rant.
But this never happends in bw because you never wait as Zerg to build from your larvae. But theoretical it's the same situation. In SC2 the queen delivers larvae 4 at a time. Yeah I understand that. But with one queen you can have 4 extra hydra per 25 seconds rite? How is this still different from when a Terran or Protoss scout Zerg in bw? The same apply with the larvae question of what did the Zerg use them for. Obviously bw is played to look like it does today. But the same issue Had to be the same when SC came out. (with knowing what zerg used the larvae for) You're not saving larvae at all. You get the usual 3 and use them instantly as they come. Then, 25 seconds after you inject larvae with the queen, you get 4 more coming together. My point is that if you play optimally, using larvae instantly everytime, you still have 4 larvae coming together every 25 seconds. You don't have to save anything. They come like that - 4 together. Yeah I know that, seems it is some sort of misunderstanding here of what I mean. If protoss scouts zerg in bw, and then dies, lets say zerg has 3 hatches. Protoss scouted drones poping from two of them, the last hatchery did in fact have hydras on it's way. So in this scenario the same apply as this but with LOWER number ofc "In Starcraft II, your probe arrives at Zerg's base to find 2 hatcheries and a hydralisk den. Two minutes after the probe dies, Zerg could theoretically have 20 hydralisks or 30 drones, and it's impossible for you to know." It is the same now, but with the number 9 of 3 hatches. Correct? or am I wrong?
Yes but instead of 6 larvae per round at 6 minutes its 14 at 6 minutes. Surely you can see the difference and the potential for all-ins?
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The graphs are interesting, I hope people interpret them appropriately. As you say, Zerg having fewer minerals at an arbitrary one-base saturation level is only due to their macro mechanic not raising the maximum rate of mining from a particular area. I think that could easily be misunderstood, especially in the context of "in the end, RTS strategies usually boil down to the simplest common factor - maximize resource production as quickly as possible." Those are pretty significant gaps for mineral count, after all, so zerg will have to leverage its early game advantage to make up the difference in theoretical maximums.
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Calgary25957 Posts
On September 12 2009 06:34 integral wrote:
The graphs are interesting, I hope people interpret them appropriately. As you say, Zerg having fewer minerals at an arbitrary one-base saturation level is only due to their macro mechanic not raising the maximum rate of mining from a particular area. I think that could easily be misunderstood, especially in the context of "in the end, RTS strategies usually boil down to the simplest common factor - maximize resource production as quickly as possible." Those are pretty significant gaps for mineral count, after all, so zerg will have to leverage its early game advantage to make up the difference in theoretical maximums.
True, however, keep in mind that from this one hatchery and queen, Zerg essentially has 2 gateways and a nexus. If the model built 2 gateways and constant zealots, im sure the minerals would come a little more together.
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On September 12 2009 06:34 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 06:33 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:27 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:23 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:19 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:16 Lobbo wrote:
Cool, but dosent this apply to bw also? A probe can scout Zerg, and see the little maggots waiting, and when the probe dies, Zerg has the same option to make attacking units or pure drones. I'm a bit clueless so please bother with my question or rather rant.
But this never happends in bw because you never wait as Zerg to build from your larvae. But theoretical it's the same situation. In SC2 the queen delivers larvae 4 at a time. Yeah I understand that. But with one queen you can have 4 extra hydra per 25 seconds rite? How is this still different from when a Terran or Protoss scout Zerg in bw? The same apply with the larvae question of what did the Zerg use them for. Obviously bw is played to look like it does today. But the same issue Had to be the same when SC came out. (with knowing what zerg used the larvae for) You're not saving larvae at all. You get the usual 3 and use them instantly as they come. Then, 25 seconds after you inject larvae with the queen, you get 4 more coming together. My point is that if you play optimally, using larvae instantly everytime, you still have 4 larvae coming together every 25 seconds. You don't have to save anything. They come like that - 4 together. Yeah I know that, seems it is some sort of misunderstanding here of what I mean. If protoss scouts zerg in bw, and then dies, lets say zerg has 3 hatches. Protoss scouted drones poping from two of them, the last hatchery did in fact have hydras on it's way. So in this scenario the same apply as this but with LOWER number ofc "In Starcraft II, your probe arrives at Zerg's base to find 2 hatcheries and a hydralisk den. Two minutes after the probe dies, Zerg could theoretically have 20 hydralisks or 30 drones, and it's impossible for you to know." It is the same now, but with the number 9 of 3 hatches. Correct? or am I wrong? Yes but instead of 6 larvae per round at 6 minutes its 14 at 6 minutes. Surely you can see the difference and the potential for all-ins?
Yeah I have the feeling he didn't understand that a queen can inject 4 larvae per 25 seconds for EVERY hatchery, so if you have 2 then that's 8 larvae
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On September 12 2009 06:34 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 06:33 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:27 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:23 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:19 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:16 Lobbo wrote:
Cool, but dosent this apply to bw also? A probe can scout Zerg, and see the little maggots waiting, and when the probe dies, Zerg has the same option to make attacking units or pure drones. I'm a bit clueless so please bother with my question or rather rant.
But this never happends in bw because you never wait as Zerg to build from your larvae. But theoretical it's the same situation. In SC2 the queen delivers larvae 4 at a time. Yeah I understand that. But with one queen you can have 4 extra hydra per 25 seconds rite? How is this still different from when a Terran or Protoss scout Zerg in bw? The same apply with the larvae question of what did the Zerg use them for. Obviously bw is played to look like it does today. But the same issue Had to be the same when SC came out. (with knowing what zerg used the larvae for) You're not saving larvae at all. You get the usual 3 and use them instantly as they come. Then, 25 seconds after you inject larvae with the queen, you get 4 more coming together. My point is that if you play optimally, using larvae instantly everytime, you still have 4 larvae coming together every 25 seconds. You don't have to save anything. They come like that - 4 together. Yeah I know that, seems it is some sort of misunderstanding here of what I mean. If protoss scouts zerg in bw, and then dies, lets say zerg has 3 hatches. Protoss scouted drones poping from two of them, the last hatchery did in fact have hydras on it's way. So in this scenario the same apply as this but with LOWER number ofc "In Starcraft II, your probe arrives at Zerg's base to find 2 hatcheries and a hydralisk den. Two minutes after the probe dies, Zerg could theoretically have 20 hydralisks or 30 drones, and it's impossible for you to know." It is the same now, but with the number 9 of 3 hatches. Correct? or am I wrong? Yes but instead of 6 larvae per round at 6 minutes its 14 at 6 minutes. Surely you can see the difference and the potential for all-ins?
I do and it is far supreme as this article shows, which is a good thing. And I see your point now when you pointed out the All-in situation early game. But how will this effect the late-mid game? From what I took in from this article is that Zerg wins the race to 30. But in mid game and onward protoss and terran is far superior in collecting minerals. and here is it quite blank for me to see the zerg be stripped of the 4 larvae. How else would Zerg survive late game? It will be impossible without expanding. And everyone will see this and make it their top priority to deny zerg from doing so. So zerg must have this?? I may be wrong, I've never played SCII and I'm not the sharpest needle on bw. So clarification would be awesome.
On September 12 2009 06:38 minus_human wrote:Show nested quote +On September 12 2009 06:34 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:33 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:27 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:23 Lobbo wrote:On September 12 2009 06:19 Chill wrote:On September 12 2009 06:16 Lobbo wrote:
Cool, but dosent this apply to bw also? A probe can scout Zerg, and see the little maggots waiting, and when the probe dies, Zerg has the same option to make attacking units or pure drones. I'm a bit clueless so please bother with my question or rather rant.
But this never happends in bw because you never wait as Zerg to build from your larvae. But theoretical it's the same situation. In SC2 the queen delivers larvae 4 at a time. Yeah I understand that. But with one queen you can have 4 extra hydra per 25 seconds rite? How is this still different from when a Terran or Protoss scout Zerg in bw? The same apply with the larvae question of what did the Zerg use them for. Obviously bw is played to look like it does today. But the same issue Had to be the same when SC came out. (with knowing what zerg used the larvae for) You're not saving larvae at all. You get the usual 3 and use them instantly as they come. Then, 25 seconds after you inject larvae with the queen, you get 4 more coming together. My point is that if you play optimally, using larvae instantly everytime, you still have 4 larvae coming together every 25 seconds. You don't have to save anything. They come like that - 4 together. Yeah I know that, seems it is some sort of misunderstanding here of what I mean. If protoss scouts zerg in bw, and then dies, lets say zerg has 3 hatches. Protoss scouted drones poping from two of them, the last hatchery did in fact have hydras on it's way. So in this scenario the same apply as this but with LOWER number ofc "In Starcraft II, your probe arrives at Zerg's base to find 2 hatcheries and a hydralisk den. Two minutes after the probe dies, Zerg could theoretically have 20 hydralisks or 30 drones, and it's impossible for you to know." It is the same now, but with the number 9 of 3 hatches. Correct? or am I wrong? Yes but instead of 6 larvae per round at 6 minutes its 14 at 6 minutes. Surely you can see the difference and the potential for all-ins? Yeah I have the feeling he didn't understand that a queen can inject 4 larvae per 25 seconds for EVERY hatchery, so if you have 2 then that's 8 larvae
Is this true? But you need to save the energy to do so right?
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If a player chooses not to rush his macro-enhancing in early game, they should have an advantage over their opponent who does rush their macro ability if they decide to go for an agressive build.
And if a zerg is scouted going for early queen, there should be a way to respond to and stop it before the zerg is given a choice on what to use his crazy number of additional larvae.
With all these balance issues, it appears as if another postponed release date is likely
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I gotta say, before I even read the article: That banner is amazing, and it's my new background. Awesome stuff Silversky!
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Korea (South)3086 Posts
On September 12 2009 06:46 number1gog wrote:
I gotta say, before I even read the article: That banner is amazing, and it's my new background. Awesome stuff Silversky!
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I'm gonna have to make banners more like this from now on. It's getting more hype. lol
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Osaka27115 Posts
On September 12 2009 06:40 Lobbo wrote:
I do and it is far supreme as this article shows, which is a good thing. And I see your point now when you pointed out the All-in situation early game. But how will this effect the late-mid game? From what I took in from this article is that Zerg wins the race to 30. But in mid game and onward protoss and terran is far superior in collecting minerals. and here is it quite blank for me to see the zerg be stripped of the 4 larvae. How else would Zerg survive late game? It will be impossible without expanding. And everyone will see this and make it their top priority to deny zerg from doing so. So zerg must have this?? I may be wrong, I've never played SCII and I'm not the sharpest needle on bw. So clarification would be awesome.
Obviously the zerg will expand. This is simply an opening. Without early pressure zerg can get to 30 drones so quickly, and expand to use those extra drones everywhere. By the time the pressure comes, because of the mass larvae, zerg can switch back to unit production to fend off the pressure and still come out ahead. Because zerg produces at an exponential rate and not a linear one like the other two, that exponential growth has to be controlled. In BW it was controlled by 3 larva per hatch. In SC2 it seems that the extra larva makes the zerg growth too much.
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Cool writeup and nice graphs, hopefully now everyone (Karune!) realizes the queen mechanic isn't just powerful for quick all-ins.
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This is why TL is #1 Intelligent and amazing articles and analysis.
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Just so I get things straight. The advantage you get from queens is that you get a shitload of extra larvae you can use right? Couldn't this compare to just having cheaper hatcheries? Wouldn't that give the same effect in the end? Isn't part of the problem that the queen costs half(?) as much as a hatchery but delivers 150%(?) of the larvae production?
Let's say that the queen was changed so that the value in (extra larvae/minerals spent) was just slightly more than that of adding a hatchery, so that if you wanted to stay on one base the queen would be a good investment but if you wanted to get two bases early to boost your economy then the extra hatchery would be a better idea. Wouldn't that fix the problem and open up for real choice?
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Interesting article. I have no idea if you are correct because I haven't played the game, but you make reasonable points that should (hopefully) have impact on the development process. Excellent work.
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I like the article a lot. I had a random thought recently about a possible counter strategy to the queen- does SC2 still have those "Xel Naga watchtowers" that blizz mentioned a while back? Because if it does, maybe T and P could use those to scout the zerg and know whether they need to prepare for a rush or a macro war.
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EPT
