Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting!
NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.
On October 25 2024 07:47 micronesia wrote: I legitimately can't think of anything Trump could say publicly that would lead me to believe he would soon take a hit in his polling numbers. We've reached a point in time where he seems immune.
The most truthful observation Trump possibly ever made was he could shoot someone on 5th Avenue and people wouldn’t particularly shift their opinion
I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I dont know who the guy who is a friend of the Trump son is, but it is one of the most dangerous people I've ever seen.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
On October 25 2024 02:37 Simberto wrote: I hate this.
We can no longer talk about anything.
No matter what the topic is, rightwing guys know that if they don't like it or don't want to talk about it, they can just say some bigoted thing about trans people, and then that is what we talk about. Usually for quite a while.
And that is a topic rightwing people feel comfortable with. Leftwing people too. Rightwing people think trans people are gross and shouldn't/don't exist. Usually combined with a view of trans people that is mostly based on 90s "comedy" movies with men in dresses acting as women.
Leftwing people think that trans people are people and have a right to exist.
Then everyone talks in circles for a while, vomits out the same talking points as the last time, nothing is achieved, no one has changed their opinion, learned anything new, or even heard what the other side said, and the previous topic is completely forgotten.
This tactic is disgustingly effective, because everyone feels good about talking about trans people. Leftwing people feel good about defending them, rightwing people don't really care, but feel good acting smart and saying that there are only two sexes, and that trans people are just men in dresses.
Then it turns into this pseudointellectual debate about definitions of what a woman is or whatever,
It's not just here, it's like this all over US politics all the way up to Trump and Harris. You'll note the trans person TL had contributing to this thread didn't feel "defended" by libs persistent self-congratulatory engagement with transphobic nonsense either.
I remember reading that post you linked... "Complimenting" me on my typical kabuki might just be the nicest thing you've ever said to me!
I don't know if it's truly appropriate to make comments on how that trans poster felt; iirc they were worried more about irl issues and less about TL dialogue.
Yeah, it's the same game oBlade is running on you, just feels classier to engage in.
As far as said poster, as I said, it's not just them and here. It's oppressed peoples here and abroad that feel this way about libs and their self-congratulatory lip service "defenses" (online and offline) while ultimately facilitating right wing fascists oppressing us and ripping away our rights/lives.
I had thought the embarrassment/shame of proving me right over and over again might be enough to stop people from doing it, but alas, I was wrong.
I answered as many of Introvert's questions as I could, and I feel like Introvert answered most of mine too. It was a learning experience (at least, for me), and it felt good being able to engage in a good-faith discussion with someone in this thread who I generally disagree with. It felt refreshing, especially as we spend some portion of this thread engaging in toxic posting and then another portion venting about said toxic posting.
I think there's a huge contrast between Introvert's budget conversation and what oBlade is now doing - replying to my questions + Show Spoiler +
"Are there *any* public figures or politicians or celebrities or family members or friends, who - if they were to suddenly reject Trump and publicly announce that he shouldn't be reelected - could actually persuade a decent number of undecided or barely-Trump voters? Who would hypothetically be the most likely to influence people against voting for Trump? Maybe Melania? Elon Musk? Someone else?"
with a montage about "Hitler" and "Kamabla" and so much more nonsense. That's why I appreciate the responses I received from other people, with either other public figures' names or the insight that Trump is mostly a one-man show, and that he's not as likely to be taken down by someone else rejecting him (as opposed to how a decent amount of Harris's popularity comes from her enjoying a community of support by like-minded individuals). Maybe oBlade would be interested in engaging in a future post/topic of mine, but this one seems like a miss. It's all good though.
Yeah, same game, but you feel classier about it.
While I recognize your spin on it, the dynamic of endorsements or anti-endorsements is somewhat interesting.
To answer your question, If Melania and Ivanka came out with a "come to Jesus" video detailing why white women shouldn't vote for him he'd probably lose the white woman vote for the first time.
I appreciate you answering my question too! I had forgotten about Ivanka.
No problem. Yeah, besides the laundry list of things they could probably say about their experiences with him, white women are probably his most easily peelable reluctant supporters.
It's one reason why Democrats were supposed to focus on reproductive rights and why Democrats falling for the constant derailments by Trump and his ilk has been so devastating for Democrats. Part of the reason the derailments are so tempting though is because Democrats don't actually have anything of substance for people at the presidential level on reproductive rights.
The only thing they've really got is that she could veto a national abortion ban, but that would remind people Democrats are going to lose the Senate and she's going to pass Republican legislation or nothing at all.
I think Harris has done a decent job of consistently bringing up the importance of reproductive rights during her rallies and interviews, including how she'd like to codify Roe v. Wade, even going so far as to eliminate the filibuster to enshrine abortion rights into federal law ( https://www.axios.com/2024/09/24/harris-filibuster-abortion-trump-2024 ). Of course, Harris can't unilaterally restore all American women's right to bodily autonomy, and the Senate is going to probably be a problem, as you already mentioned. Congressional support is going to be crucial no matter what - and we won't know what happens until the election and the next presidential term - but I think it's smart of Harris to keep bringing up the topic.
Yeah that's very underwhelming for people that lost their rights under a Democrat presidency and don't see Democrats with any serious plan to get them back under another one.
It's their best issue but they can't get any engagement on it because they don't actually have anything to offer but empty promises they (and too many voters) know they can't/won't keep.
She doesn't even have the Senate seats she thinks Democrats could win to theoretically eliminate the filibuster for Roe v. Wade like she purportedly plans. She certainly hasn't been highlighting and campaigning with them. As she would need to be doing to actually be able to follow through on the empty rhetoric.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I dont know who the guy who is a friend of the Trump son is, but it is one of the most dangerous people I've ever seen.
What’s your proposed alternative?
Crazy idea, but how about thinking about them as human beings?
What does that have to do with you thinking Trump might mess up his chances by saying something stupid on Joe Rogan, and then we pointed out that saying something stupid never seems to hurt Trump's chances, and then we asked you what Trump could possibly say to mess things up for himself? This is about Trump and his followers, not Democrats. Please just write a sentence that you think Trump might accidentally say on Joe Rogan that could actually sabotage himself.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I dont know who the guy who is a friend of the Trump son is, but it is one of the most dangerous people I've ever seen.
Wait really?
I recall Kamala talking a lot about specifics of economic policy, tax cuts and financial incentives for what sounds like average people... does this not count as pretending to care about average people? I'm not saying I actually encourage people to believe she'll be able to go through with it, but it certainly seems more like caring about people than Trump does.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I dont know who the guy who is a friend of the Trump son is, but it is one of the most dangerous people I've ever seen.
What’s your proposed alternative?
Crazy idea, but how about thinking about them as human beings?
I work with Trump voters and go to school with more. They do not treat the people they talk about politics that they disagree with as human beings. As bad as you think leftists talk about conservatives in this thread in real life they're much worse. They do not consider immigrants as human beings anymore. They haven't considered Muslims as human beings for 23 years now. Gay and trans people aren't just not human to them they're actively evil people that need to be removed from society.
Trump has conditioned his fans to not believe people are arguing with them in good faith and has lied so much and with so little regard to reality that it is impossible to reason with them. We work with entirely different sets of facts now in this country. Tariffs are something other nations pay for. The wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and be effective at stopping migration. You can easily and ethically seize and deport people who are here illegally back to the country they came from. People are going to die from the covid vaccine en mass but also trump is great for developing it so fast. The people who stormed the capital are both Antifa plants and are political hostages. George floyd died from an overdose and was a felon so he doesn't deserve pity. Any sort of prosecution for trumps crimes are lawfare, don't pay attention to the process or the evidence presented. Trump filled up the oil reserves when you can easily find out that he drew it down a lot. Taxes went up during bidens term when it was the tax plan that trump put into place. Tampons not being restricted to womens bathrooms is weird and funny. Hunter Bidens laptop being suppressed was government suppression of the truth even thought it was bidens team when he wasn't in the white house, but the supression of JD vances dossier on twitter is somehow perfectly find and not a problem. There was widespread election fraud but no evidence of it anywhere. You don't have to accept that you ever lose an election and disrupting the transfer of power isn't an issue, but directly comparing what trump says to what hitler said is an issue.
You look at BJ and you do not see someone who thinks of you as a human being worth respecting with a simple conversation. You look at oblade and you see someone who wants to just talk about thinks that no one is talking about. You see GH trying to push away anyone that might support him as hard as possible and wondering why no one agrees with his violent revolution.
The problem isn't that we don't think of them as human beings its that we do think of them as human beings and are disappointed when they don't act like them. I'm a Christian that belives in christ when he told everyone that loving your neighbor was one of the two commandments that all others depended on. These people pretend to be Christians yet do not follow his teachings.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I work with Trump voters and go to school with more. They do not treat the people they talk about politics that they disagree with as human beings. As bad as you think leftists talk about conservatives in this thread in real life they're much worse. They do not consider immigrants as human beings anymore. They haven't considered Muslims as human beings for 23 years now. Gay and trans people aren't just not human to them they're actively evil people that need to be removed from society.
Trump has conditioned his fans to not believe people are arguing with them in good faith and has lied so much and with so little regard to reality that it is impossible to reason with them. We work with entirely different sets of facts now in this country. Tariffs are something other nations pay for. The wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and be effective at stopping migration. You can easily and ethically seize and deport people who are here illegally back to the country they came from. People are going to die from the covid vaccine en mass but also trump is great for developing it so fast. The people who stormed the capital are both Antifa plants and are political hostages. George floyd died from an overdose and was a felon so he doesn't deserve pity. Any sort of prosecution for trumps crimes are lawfare, don't pay attention to the process or the evidence presented. Trump filled up the oil reserves when you can easily find out that he drew it down a lot. Taxes went up during bidens term when it was the tax plan that trump put into place. Tampons not being restricted to womens bathrooms is weird and funny. Hunter Bidens laptop being suppressed was government suppression of the truth even thought it was bidens team when he wasn't in the white house, but the supression of JD vances dossier on twitter is somehow perfectly find and not a problem. There was widespread election fraud but no evidence of it anywhere. You don't have to accept that you ever lose an election and disrupting the transfer of power isn't an issue, but directly comparing what trump says to what hitler said is an issue.
You look at BJ and you do not see someone who thinks of you as a human being worth respecting with a simple conversation. You look at oblade and you see someone who wants to just talk about thinks that no one is talking about.
You see GH trying to push away anyone that might support him as hard as possible and wondering why no one agrees with his violent revolution.
The problem isn't that we don't think of them as human beings its that we do think of them as human beings and are disappointed when they don't act like them. I'm a Christian that belives in christ when he told everyone that loving your neighbor was one of the two commandments that all others depended on. These people pretend to be Christians yet do not follow his teachings.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
Kamala Harris doesn't pretend to care about average Americans? If she's pretending, she's been pretending her ass off. All she's been doing is talk about benefits for workers. It's the clear majority of her platform.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I work with Trump voters and go to school with more. They do not treat the people they talk about politics that they disagree with as human beings. As bad as you think leftists talk about conservatives in this thread in real life they're much worse. They do not consider immigrants as human beings anymore. They haven't considered Muslims as human beings for 23 years now. Gay and trans people aren't just not human to them they're actively evil people that need to be removed from society.
Trump has conditioned his fans to not believe people are arguing with them in good faith and has lied so much and with so little regard to reality that it is impossible to reason with them. We work with entirely different sets of facts now in this country. Tariffs are something other nations pay for. The wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and be effective at stopping migration. You can easily and ethically seize and deport people who are here illegally back to the country they came from. People are going to die from the covid vaccine en mass but also trump is great for developing it so fast. The people who stormed the capital are both Antifa plants and are political hostages. George floyd died from an overdose and was a felon so he doesn't deserve pity. Any sort of prosecution for trumps crimes are lawfare, don't pay attention to the process or the evidence presented. Trump filled up the oil reserves when you can easily find out that he drew it down a lot. Taxes went up during bidens term when it was the tax plan that trump put into place. Tampons not being restricted to womens bathrooms is weird and funny. Hunter Bidens laptop being suppressed was government suppression of the truth even thought it was bidens team when he wasn't in the white house, but the supression of JD vances dossier on twitter is somehow perfectly find and not a problem. There was widespread election fraud but no evidence of it anywhere. You don't have to accept that you ever lose an election and disrupting the transfer of power isn't an issue, but directly comparing what trump says to what hitler said is an issue.
You look at BJ and you do not see someone who thinks of you as a human being worth respecting with a simple conversation. You look at oblade and you see someone who wants to just talk about thinks that no one is talking about.
You see GH trying to push away anyone that might support him as hard as possible and wondering why no one agrees with his violent revolution.
The problem isn't that we don't think of them as human beings its that we do think of them as human beings and are disappointed when they don't act like them. I'm a Christian that belives in christ when he told everyone that loving your neighbor was one of the two commandments that all others depended on. These people pretend to be Christians yet do not follow his teachings.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within it's own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
And yet you show no understanding of any of these points being legitimate nor do you treat the people who believe these things with the respect you are entitled to. You deny electoralism as being a legitimate way to achieve your goals and constantly advocate for the abandonment of it. You harp all the time about how you don't think democrats have an issue with genocide and yet cannot provide an alternative to it past just letting trump genocide even harder. When was the last time you tried to argue with BJ or Oblade or provide any insight into an issue that wasn't exclusively anti democrat or anyone on the left side of the country?
Being able to recognize the pattern of what people tell you when they disagree with you is not understanding why people don't agree with you.
On October 25 2024 10:32 Magic Powers wrote: Kamala Harris doesn't pretend to care about average Americans? If she's pretending, she's been pretending her ass off. All she's been doing is talk about benefits for workers. It's the clear majority of her platform.
In the bubble they live in they never find out about the things Harris actually talks about nor the policies she is for. I think people legitimately believe that Kamala harris is doing sex reassignment surgery to children and illegal immigrants against their will. I think they legitimately believe that the wall would solve immigration and that china would pay for the tariffs and that it will somehow lower costs on things. They bit so hard on the Russian deepfake about Walz molesting one of his students and never found out that a journalist actually ran down the guy and video taped what he actually looks like now and how is nothing like what the ai creation says in the video. Trump can't be trusted to sit on a white couch and has been deteriorating before our eyes mentally yet none are alarmed in any way.
BJ posted a video where he proposes that people are voting trump not because they belive him or are for anything he's about, but do so as a sign of how crazy they think the other side is. They think the other side is crazy because that's what they're told every day from the people they trust not to lie to them.
On October 25 2024 10:32 Magic Powers wrote: Kamala Harris doesn't pretend to care about average Americans? If she's pretending, she's been pretending her ass off. All she's been doing is talk about benefits for workers. It's the clear majority of her platform.
That was indeed a baffling assertion from Razyda. It requires one to ignore the majority of policies, actions, and rhetoric put forth by both Harris and Trump.
On October 25 2024 07:44 Razyda wrote: Ok wild take, but I think Trump is making a mistake with Joe Rogan. He does well in hostile interviews, but I can easily see him relax and saying bunch of stupid shit in what is more of a friendly chat, than interview. Imo risk he didnt need to take.
What do you think might be something that Trump could say that could result in negative consequences for him?
On October 25 2024 07:44 Razyda wrote: Ok wild take, but I think Trump is making a mistake with Joe Rogan. He does well in hostile interviews, but I can easily see him relax and saying bunch of stupid shit in what is more of a friendly chat, than interview. Imo risk he didnt need to take.
What do you think might be something that Trump could say that could result in negative consequences for him?
I went dozens of rounds asking simple questions in the covid thread and never got a response on why vaccines being mandated for children for decades was okay and them being mandated for adults in a global health emergency wasn't.
You're never going to get a real answer to your question.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I work with Trump voters and go to school with more. They do not treat the people they talk about politics that they disagree with as human beings. As bad as you think leftists talk about conservatives in this thread in real life they're much worse. They do not consider immigrants as human beings anymore. They haven't considered Muslims as human beings for 23 years now. Gay and trans people aren't just not human to them they're actively evil people that need to be removed from society.
Trump has conditioned his fans to not believe people are arguing with them in good faith and has lied so much and with so little regard to reality that it is impossible to reason with them. We work with entirely different sets of facts now in this country. Tariffs are something other nations pay for. The wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and be effective at stopping migration. You can easily and ethically seize and deport people who are here illegally back to the country they came from. People are going to die from the covid vaccine en mass but also trump is great for developing it so fast. The people who stormed the capital are both Antifa plants and are political hostages. George floyd died from an overdose and was a felon so he doesn't deserve pity. Any sort of prosecution for trumps crimes are lawfare, don't pay attention to the process or the evidence presented. Trump filled up the oil reserves when you can easily find out that he drew it down a lot. Taxes went up during bidens term when it was the tax plan that trump put into place. Tampons not being restricted to womens bathrooms is weird and funny. Hunter Bidens laptop being suppressed was government suppression of the truth even thought it was bidens team when he wasn't in the white house, but the supression of JD vances dossier on twitter is somehow perfectly find and not a problem. There was widespread election fraud but no evidence of it anywhere. You don't have to accept that you ever lose an election and disrupting the transfer of power isn't an issue, but directly comparing what trump says to what hitler said is an issue.
You look at BJ and you do not see someone who thinks of you as a human being worth respecting with a simple conversation. You look at oblade and you see someone who wants to just talk about thinks that no one is talking about.
You see GH trying to push away anyone that might support him as hard as possible and wondering why no one agrees with his violent revolution.
The problem isn't that we don't think of them as human beings its that we do think of them as human beings and are disappointed when they don't act like them. I'm a Christian that belives in christ when he told everyone that loving your neighbor was one of the two commandments that all others depended on. These people pretend to be Christians yet do not follow his teachings.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within its own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
And yet you show no understanding of any of these points being legitimate nor do you treat the people who believe these things with the respect you are entitled to. You deny electoralism as being a legitimate way to achieve your goals and constantly advocate for the abandonment of it. You harp all the time about how you don't think democrats have an issue with genocide and yet cannot provide an alternative to it past just letting trump genocide even harder. When was the last time you tried to argue with BJ or Oblade or provide any insight into an issue that wasn't exclusively anti democrat or anyone on the left side of the country?
Being able to recognize the pattern of what people tell you when they disagree with you is not understanding why people don't agree with you.
I don't know what you mean by "legitimate" in this context, but yeah, they are reasonable concerns I don't mind discussing (save for #1 because it's basically always engaged in bad faith in this context by right wingers that oppose it).
Electoralism is futile for a variety of reasons, but Trump destroying democracy would settle that.
The alternative was for voters that oppose genocide to pressure Democrats, Biden, and Harris to withdraw their support for genocide 10+ months ago before the first primary was even started. Instead you guys, and Democrats generally, immediately went the shame, blame and threaten route with the "just letting trump genocide even harder" trash.
Part of why I've been harping on all this stuff is so that if Harris does lose you guys can't pretend like you (and Dem voters generally) didn't defend/support Democrats being trash when you needed to be joining the people demanding better.
Especially when the bar is in Hell at not supporting a genocide that the majority of voters want them to stop supporting.
On October 25 2024 07:44 Razyda wrote: Ok wild take, but I think Trump is making a mistake with Joe Rogan. He does well in hostile interviews, but I can easily see him relax and saying bunch of stupid shit in what is more of a friendly chat, than interview. Imo risk he didnt need to take.
What do you think might be something that Trump could say that could result in negative consequences for him?
I went dozens of rounds asking simple questions in the covid thread and never got a response on why vaccines being mandated for children for decades was okay and them being mandated for adults in a global health emergency wasn't.
You're never going to get a real answer to your question.
That would be disappointing. Razyda even knows that his take is a controversial "wild take", so I would assume he'd be prepared with at least one example. I hope he responds, as I think it'd be really interesting.
Oh great so we agree they shouldnt be allowed to wear these giant fake bazookas. So I guess my criticism of the school board that allowed this is totally valid and not just an “attack on trans people.” We just needed it to come through Mohdoo’s keyboard.
Maybe if you had posted an article or the full context like we had asked you, or communicated things more clearly, or avoided bringing this up right as you were providing cover for that other poster's anti-trans rhetoric, we would have eventually agreed with you.
I think that if there was consensus here you would have gladly argued the case that there’s nothing wrong with Kayla wearing giant prosthetic tits to school if that’s how they chose to identify.
Mohdoo’s point was the same as mine: it doesn’t matter if they are trans or a troll, the prosthetic boobs are inappropriate either way. He didn’t offer anything materially different. You already had access to the nypost article when you were questioning me about what exactly I found inappropriate about what that person was wearing. I think Mohdoo just offered another dissent that you couldn’t dismiss as a right-wing bigot so your position came crumbling down like a house of cards.
Just to recenter ourselves, let's run the discussion back:
On October 22 2024 12:05 BlackJack wrote: As dogmeat said, they are arguably less delusional and out of touch than the people believing a man is a woman because he put on a wig and stuffed his shirt with giant inflatable tits.
This prompted Manifesto to respond, and you to respond to Manifesto with
On October 23 2024 02:15 BlackJack wrote: I don't know what the media machine is, but I would argue that since it would be considered inappropriate any other time in history for a man to show up to teach kids with Size Z prosthetic tits, and now we have a school board that was willing to defend it then they are the ones that are ideologically captured by some kind of machine.
Later, in response to DPB, you add
On October 23 2024 02:36 BlackJack wrote:To be clear, your ideology dictates that you accept that teacher as a woman simply for saying he is a woman. The wig and prosthetic breasts aren't even a necessary component of my post.
Eventually, RenSC2 posts an actual source for the story you're referencing
Bill Maher has also referenced this case multiple times and is the only reason why I know of it.
Your ending statement is this:
On October 23 2024 13:11 BlackJack wrote: I think that if there was consensus here you would have gladly argued the case that there’s nothing wrong with Kayla wearing giant prosthetic tits to school if that’s how they chose to identify.
Mohdoo’s point was the same as mine: it doesn’t matter if they are trans or a troll, the prosthetic boobs are inappropriate either way. He didn’t offer anything materially different. You already had access to the nypost article when you were questioning me about what exactly I found inappropriate about what that person was wearing. I think Mohdoo just offered another dissent that you couldn’t dismiss as a right-wing bigot so your position came crumbling down like a house of cards.
Where I take issue is specifically with the start being different than the end. You're being critical of the school board, and imo that makes sense. People have a right to identify how they want to identify, to a point. In this particular case, it was a man identifying as a woman with a medical condition. Identifying as a woman? Fine. Identifying as having a medical condition she doesn't actually have? Questionable. The school board accepting the 'identifying as having a medical condition' and allowing size Z prosthetic breasts is the issue.
You opened with "they are arguably less delusional and out of touch than the people believing a man is a woman because he put on a wig and stuffed his shirt with giant inflatable tits." and are trying to end with "it doesn’t matter if they are trans or a troll, the prosthetic boobs are inappropriate either way.".
You literally state "...believing a man is a woman because..." and later try walk it back to being about the tits. You also stated "The wig and prosthetic breasts aren't even a necessary component of my post", but are now trying to claim the prosthetic breasts ARE the necessary part and are inappropriate either way. You can't be critical of the school board and claim they're delusional for believing a man is a woman, and then say it has nothing to do with gender it's about the tits.
Also, let's not forget that our source is an american conservative tabloid's article about an extreme edge case happening in a different country. That's not a terribly robust footing to make any kind of substantial point from.
My take has always been, for example, transgender men are not the same as biological men but I will happily identify them as such and used their preferred name and pronouns because that's the kind and courteous thing to do.
The woke take is "a transgender man is literally the same as a biological man and if you disagree you're committing violence against trans people."
Honestly I have little interest in a debate of whether a man can be a woman or vice versa. It's inevitably going to turn in a semantic debate where I insist that a man is a biological male and everyone else insists a man is "anyone that claims to be a man." I would much rather have a discussion on what happens when woke ideology is applied in the real world, such as the case with the school board defending the teacher with the giant prosthetic breasts.
Can you please define "a biological male"? I'm not sure what that means, insofar as which criteria you believe are necessary for a person to be considered biologically male.
In my experience this normally refers to chromosomes, and trans people to my knowledge overwhelmingly have the chromosome pattern matching their 'biological' sex. Genitalia can be altered but chromosomes cannot. And yeah a very small group of people are something else than xx or xy but those people aren't necessarily related to trans people in any way.
Biologically it's gametes. We have either sperm or eggs, there is no third type (it's "binary"). In many animals chromosomes can determine the sex but they don't define it. Famously, in alligators incubation temperature determines sex.
Edit: so chromosomes are a useful shorthand but edge cases don't make the whole exercise arbitrary.
This is close to true, perhaps good enough for government work, but it’s not quite right. Fundamentally, what someone’s “biological sex” is depends on what purpose you have for defining their biological sex – for sex-linked genetic traits, for instance, chromosomes *is* what you would care about, whether or not their gametes match.
Stepping back a little, biology is a constant exercise of looking at enormously complex, heterogeneous systems, and trying to define rules and categories that will help understand how they work, even though every rule or category will have nontrivial exceptions you’ll then have to account for. Even something relatively robust like “species” has weird exceptions that make it a little hard to delineate exactly how many species of this type of bird there are in a certain population, or where the dividing line is between them. But if we define a prototypical case, and describe the characteristics that the vast majority of cases follow, we can talk about the cases that deviate from the rule and why, which is still a better understanding than we had before.
The nitpicky problem with “sex is binary, you either produce one gamete or the other” is that a small number of people produce both, and a huge number of people produce neither. The more fundamental problem is that when people talk about sex, even specifically “biological sex,” their gametes may or may not be relevant. If I’m talking about a chimeric individual (someone whose body is made partly of cells with a different genetic set), and I say that one of their genetic sets is male and the other is female, I don’t think anyone would think I was talking about gametes. Or, to put it another way, if I say “a male liver cell” it would be idiotic to respond “liver cells don’t produce gametes so there’s no such thing as male or female liver cells.”
All of which is to say that we could, perhaps, say “gametes are binary” in that any individual gamete is one or the other (I’m not aware of any exceptions to that, although there’s no theoretical theoretical reason there couldn’t be). But biological sex is a complex constellation of traits that usually correlate into two populations, but not always. If you’re gonna push your glasses up your nose and say in a nasally voice, “Well actually, biological sex *is* binary” I could maybe excuse the know-it-all technicality of it, if you weren’t also wrong on the technicality.
The relevance of all this to US politics is slim, except that one faction has committed itself to the rhetorical position that sex and gender are binary, and anyone who disagrees is a leftist radical wholly detached from scientific reality. Those folks are incurious dullards, every bit as censorious and tyrannical as BlackJack’s woke scolds who insist biological sex doesn’t exist, but in my experience, substantially more numerous and vocal.
I'd consider a coin flip as something that is a binary. Of course there's a small chance that the coin lands perfectly on its edge leading to a result that is neither heads nor tails. To me, the people pointing out this (literal) edge case are the ones pushing their glasses up their nose and saying in the nasally voice "well actually.." For some reason I've never encountered a person that wants to go 12 rounds on whether or not a coin flip is actually binary because coins can land on their edge. If I did I would really hope they were trying to make some broader point and not trying to scold me for being dumb enough to think a coinflip is binary.
What are we even disagreeing over then? I mean, when shitty right-wingers (including randos on Twitter, but also, like, Ted Cruz and the like) say it’s binary, they mean “the exceptions don’t exist, those people are just deluded.” You’re acknowledging the nontrivial exceptions exist, that values besides 1 and 0 are possible (and, I’d wager, significantly likelier than a coin landing on its edge), but you still want to use the word binary because, what, you like the sound of it? The mouth feel? Define words however you want to, I guess, why should I care?
Meanwhile I opened with an explicit endorsement of the idea that the categories are useful even if they have edge cases and exceptions (as all biological categories inevitably will) and yet both you and Intro keep coming back to “isn’t it easier to just use the categories even though there are a few exceptions they don’t account for?” Yes, I already said so! Newtonian physics is fine for most purposes, just don’t insist it’s all there is or “well actually” people who are talking about quantum mechanics.
Meanwhile those shitty right-wingers are using this bullshit to ban healthcare for trans people and fearmonger that the Satanic democrats are trying to trans your kids. You’ve already pretty clearly said you don’t agree with that shit (I don’t know about Intro) but that’s virtually the only policy implication of this topic and this is a US politics thread so what are we even doing here?
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I work with Trump voters and go to school with more. They do not treat the people they talk about politics that they disagree with as human beings. As bad as you think leftists talk about conservatives in this thread in real life they're much worse. They do not consider immigrants as human beings anymore. They haven't considered Muslims as human beings for 23 years now. Gay and trans people aren't just not human to them they're actively evil people that need to be removed from society.
Trump has conditioned his fans to not believe people are arguing with them in good faith and has lied so much and with so little regard to reality that it is impossible to reason with them. We work with entirely different sets of facts now in this country. Tariffs are something other nations pay for. The wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and be effective at stopping migration. You can easily and ethically seize and deport people who are here illegally back to the country they came from. People are going to die from the covid vaccine en mass but also trump is great for developing it so fast. The people who stormed the capital are both Antifa plants and are political hostages. George floyd died from an overdose and was a felon so he doesn't deserve pity. Any sort of prosecution for trumps crimes are lawfare, don't pay attention to the process or the evidence presented. Trump filled up the oil reserves when you can easily find out that he drew it down a lot. Taxes went up during bidens term when it was the tax plan that trump put into place. Tampons not being restricted to womens bathrooms is weird and funny. Hunter Bidens laptop being suppressed was government suppression of the truth even thought it was bidens team when he wasn't in the white house, but the supression of JD vances dossier on twitter is somehow perfectly find and not a problem. There was widespread election fraud but no evidence of it anywhere. You don't have to accept that you ever lose an election and disrupting the transfer of power isn't an issue, but directly comparing what trump says to what hitler said is an issue.
You look at BJ and you do not see someone who thinks of you as a human being worth respecting with a simple conversation. You look at oblade and you see someone who wants to just talk about thinks that no one is talking about.
You see GH trying to push away anyone that might support him as hard as possible and wondering why no one agrees with his violent revolution.
The problem isn't that we don't think of them as human beings its that we do think of them as human beings and are disappointed when they don't act like them. I'm a Christian that belives in christ when he told everyone that loving your neighbor was one of the two commandments that all others depended on. These people pretend to be Christians yet do not follow his teachings.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within its own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
And yet you show no understanding of any of these points being legitimate nor do you treat the people who believe these things with the respect you are entitled to. You deny electoralism as being a legitimate way to achieve your goals and constantly advocate for the abandonment of it. You harp all the time about how you don't think democrats have an issue with genocide and yet cannot provide an alternative to it past just letting trump genocide even harder. When was the last time you tried to argue with BJ or Oblade or provide any insight into an issue that wasn't exclusively anti democrat or anyone on the left side of the country?
Being able to recognize the pattern of what people tell you when they disagree with you is not understanding why people don't agree with you.
I don't know what you mean by "legitimate" in this context, but yeah, they are reasonable concerns I don't mind discussing (save for #1 because it's basically always engaged in bad faith in this context by right wingers that oppose it).
Electoralism is futile for a variety of reasons, but Trump destroying democracy would settle that.
The alternative was for voters that oppose genocide to pressure Democrats, Biden, and Harris to withdraw their support for genocide 10+ months ago before the first primary was even started. Instead you guys, and Democrats generally, immediately went the shame, blame and threaten route with the "just letting trump genocide even harder" trash.
Part of why I've been harping on all this stuff is so that if Harris does lose you guys can't pretend like you (and Dem voters generally) didn't defend/support Democrats being trash when you needed to be joining the people demanding better.
Especially when the bar is in Hell at not supporting a genocide that the majority of voters want them to stop supporting.
And this is the best example of you pushing away everyone who support you need to build with and not understand why no one wants to support your violent revolution. If Harris loses the leftists who voted for Jill stein will be blamed and the party will pivot right in order to win further elections. Jill stein took enough votes away in 2016 for trump to get elected, she didn't run in 2020 and biden got elected, now shes running again in 2024. You, and leftists like you, have spent the entire cycle being an incredible ass outright saying your intent is to help get trump elected and then rub it in peoples faces for the next four years again like you did something good or should be seen as the superior person. You are not coalition building, you are not building any support, you are only setting yourself up to be the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong under trump. If there is a revolution socialists are not going to be the people the democrat electorate goes to for leadership during it. They're going to be right alongside conservatives for who caused conditions to get so bad.
I know what you think you are doing but everyone has been incredibly patient for you to understand what you are actually doing.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I work with Trump voters and go to school with more. They do not treat the people they talk about politics that they disagree with as human beings. As bad as you think leftists talk about conservatives in this thread in real life they're much worse. They do not consider immigrants as human beings anymore. They haven't considered Muslims as human beings for 23 years now. Gay and trans people aren't just not human to them they're actively evil people that need to be removed from society.
Trump has conditioned his fans to not believe people are arguing with them in good faith and has lied so much and with so little regard to reality that it is impossible to reason with them. We work with entirely different sets of facts now in this country. Tariffs are something other nations pay for. The wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and be effective at stopping migration. You can easily and ethically seize and deport people who are here illegally back to the country they came from. People are going to die from the covid vaccine en mass but also trump is great for developing it so fast. The people who stormed the capital are both Antifa plants and are political hostages. George floyd died from an overdose and was a felon so he doesn't deserve pity. Any sort of prosecution for trumps crimes are lawfare, don't pay attention to the process or the evidence presented. Trump filled up the oil reserves when you can easily find out that he drew it down a lot. Taxes went up during bidens term when it was the tax plan that trump put into place. Tampons not being restricted to womens bathrooms is weird and funny. Hunter Bidens laptop being suppressed was government suppression of the truth even thought it was bidens team when he wasn't in the white house, but the supression of JD vances dossier on twitter is somehow perfectly find and not a problem. There was widespread election fraud but no evidence of it anywhere. You don't have to accept that you ever lose an election and disrupting the transfer of power isn't an issue, but directly comparing what trump says to what hitler said is an issue.
You look at BJ and you do not see someone who thinks of you as a human being worth respecting with a simple conversation. You look at oblade and you see someone who wants to just talk about thinks that no one is talking about.
You see GH trying to push away anyone that might support him as hard as possible and wondering why no one agrees with his violent revolution.
The problem isn't that we don't think of them as human beings its that we do think of them as human beings and are disappointed when they don't act like them. I'm a Christian that belives in christ when he told everyone that loving your neighbor was one of the two commandments that all others depended on. These people pretend to be Christians yet do not follow his teachings.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within its own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
And yet you show no understanding of any of these points being legitimate nor do you treat the people who believe these things with the respect you are entitled to. You deny electoralism as being a legitimate way to achieve your goals and constantly advocate for the abandonment of it. You harp all the time about how you don't think democrats have an issue with genocide and yet cannot provide an alternative to it past just letting trump genocide even harder. When was the last time you tried to argue with BJ or Oblade or provide any insight into an issue that wasn't exclusively anti democrat or anyone on the left side of the country?
Being able to recognize the pattern of what people tell you when they disagree with you is not understanding why people don't agree with you.
I don't know what you mean by "legitimate" in this context, but yeah, they are reasonable concerns I don't mind discussing (save for #1 because it's basically always engaged in bad faith in this context by right wingers that oppose it).
Electoralism is futile for a variety of reasons, but Trump destroying democracy would settle that.
The alternative was for voters that oppose genocide to pressure Democrats, Biden, and Harris to withdraw their support for genocide 10+ months ago before the first primary was even started. Instead you guys, and Democrats generally, immediately went the shame, blame and threaten route with the "just letting trump genocide even harder" trash.
Part of why I've been harping on all this stuff is so that if Harris does lose you guys can't pretend like you (and Dem voters generally) didn't defend/support Democrats being trash when you needed to be joining the people demanding better.
Especially when the bar is in Hell at not supporting a genocide that the majority of voters want them to stop supporting.
And this is the best example of you pushing away everyone who support you need to build with and not understand why no one wants to support your violent revolution. If Harris loses the leftists who voted for Jill stein will be blamed and the party will pivot right in order to win further elections. Jill stein took enough votes away in 2016 for trump to get elected, she didn't run in 2020 and biden got elected, now shes running again in 2024. You, and leftists like you, have spent the entire cycle being an incredible ass outright saying your intent is to help get trump elected and then rub it in peoples faces for the next four years again like you did something good or should be seen as the superior person. You are not coalition building, you are not building any support, you are only setting yourself up to be the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong under trump. If there is a revolution socialists are not going to be the people the democrat electorate goes to for leadership during it. They're going to be right alongside conservatives for who caused conditions to get so bad.
I know what you think you are doing but everyone has been incredibly patient for you to understand what you are actually doing.
This is just the lib equivalent of the "libs being mean to me made me a Nazi" thing Republicans do. It's not people to your lefts' fault you and other Democrats support genocide and are willing to lose the election to prove it.
On October 25 2024 09:03 Razyda wrote: I think you guys are wrong and it is big part of the reason why Dems are loosing this election. You just kind of conditioned to think that people will vote for Trump only because they are some kind of nazis, fascist, racist, transphobes. Meanwhile you have Kamala telling her actual supporters "I am speaking now" and Trump chatting up random people, or taking a stunt at McDonald. What I find funny about that is that Trump is pretending to care about average person, Democrats cant be bothered to do even that, all they do is grandstanding about the issues which maybe 10% population is giving damn about. Now you are unhappy with the current sate of things and you choose between someone who pretends to care about you and someone who cant be bothered to do even that. Meanwhile bunch of people who would rather vote for Trump than keep the status quo are getting actively alienated. And this are the people who will sway from Trump if he does some stupid sh...t. So yeah I think that his appearance on Joe Rogan is mistake (kind of unnecessary point of failure)
PS: just watched Piers Morgan uncensored (I like the idea of the show, hate the execution)
I work with Trump voters and go to school with more. They do not treat the people they talk about politics that they disagree with as human beings. As bad as you think leftists talk about conservatives in this thread in real life they're much worse. They do not consider immigrants as human beings anymore. They haven't considered Muslims as human beings for 23 years now. Gay and trans people aren't just not human to them they're actively evil people that need to be removed from society.
Trump has conditioned his fans to not believe people are arguing with them in good faith and has lied so much and with so little regard to reality that it is impossible to reason with them. We work with entirely different sets of facts now in this country. Tariffs are something other nations pay for. The wall was going to be paid for by Mexico and be effective at stopping migration. You can easily and ethically seize and deport people who are here illegally back to the country they came from. People are going to die from the covid vaccine en mass but also trump is great for developing it so fast. The people who stormed the capital are both Antifa plants and are political hostages. George floyd died from an overdose and was a felon so he doesn't deserve pity. Any sort of prosecution for trumps crimes are lawfare, don't pay attention to the process or the evidence presented. Trump filled up the oil reserves when you can easily find out that he drew it down a lot. Taxes went up during bidens term when it was the tax plan that trump put into place. Tampons not being restricted to womens bathrooms is weird and funny. Hunter Bidens laptop being suppressed was government suppression of the truth even thought it was bidens team when he wasn't in the white house, but the supression of JD vances dossier on twitter is somehow perfectly find and not a problem. There was widespread election fraud but no evidence of it anywhere. You don't have to accept that you ever lose an election and disrupting the transfer of power isn't an issue, but directly comparing what trump says to what hitler said is an issue.
You look at BJ and you do not see someone who thinks of you as a human being worth respecting with a simple conversation. You look at oblade and you see someone who wants to just talk about thinks that no one is talking about.
You see GH trying to push away anyone that might support him as hard as possible and wondering why no one agrees with his violent revolution.
The problem isn't that we don't think of them as human beings its that we do think of them as human beings and are disappointed when they don't act like them. I'm a Christian that belives in christ when he told everyone that loving your neighbor was one of the two commandments that all others depended on. These people pretend to be Christians yet do not follow his teachings.
2. There's the notion that the status quo is imperfectly optimal and just needs modifications within its own parameters (this would include reformism with socialism/communism as it's ultimate goal/ideal).
3. There's fear of people losing their comfort, social status, livelihoods, lives, etc.
4. There's the uncertainty that a revolution would be successful in overcoming the existing system that comes with fears of the consequences of a failed revolution (like the sacrifices being made in vain/retaliation for insolence).
5. There's fear of a successful revolution that removes the existing power structure only to replace it with something similar/worse.
And yet you show no understanding of any of these points being legitimate nor do you treat the people who believe these things with the respect you are entitled to. You deny electoralism as being a legitimate way to achieve your goals and constantly advocate for the abandonment of it. You harp all the time about how you don't think democrats have an issue with genocide and yet cannot provide an alternative to it past just letting trump genocide even harder. When was the last time you tried to argue with BJ or Oblade or provide any insight into an issue that wasn't exclusively anti democrat or anyone on the left side of the country?
Being able to recognize the pattern of what people tell you when they disagree with you is not understanding why people don't agree with you.
I don't know what you mean by "legitimate" in this context, but yeah, they are reasonable concerns I don't mind discussing (save for #1 because it's basically always engaged in bad faith in this context by right wingers that oppose it).
Electoralism is futile for a variety of reasons, but Trump destroying democracy would settle that.
The alternative was for voters that oppose genocide to pressure Democrats, Biden, and Harris to withdraw their support for genocide 10+ months ago before the first primary was even started. Instead you guys, and Democrats generally, immediately went the shame, blame and threaten route with the "just letting trump genocide even harder" trash.
Part of why I've been harping on all this stuff is so that if Harris does lose you guys can't pretend like you (and Dem voters generally) didn't defend/support Democrats being trash when you needed to be joining the people demanding better.
Especially when the bar is in Hell at not supporting a genocide that the majority of voters want them to stop supporting.
And this is the best example of you pushing away everyone who support you need to build with and not understand why no one wants to support your violent revolution. If Harris loses the leftists who voted for Jill stein will be blamed and the party will pivot right in order to win further elections. Jill stein took enough votes away in 2016 for trump to get elected, she didn't run in 2020 and biden got elected, now shes running again in 2024. You, and leftists like you, have spent the entire cycle being an incredible ass outright saying your intent is to help get trump elected and then rub it in peoples faces for the next four years again like you did something good or should be seen as the superior person. You are not coalition building, you are not building any support, you are only setting yourself up to be the scapegoat for everything that goes wrong under trump. If there is a revolution socialists are not going to be the people the democrat electorate goes to for leadership during it. They're going to be right alongside conservatives for who caused conditions to get so bad.
I know what you think you are doing but everyone has been incredibly patient for you to understand what you are actually doing.
Nothing GH has done indicates he has been trying to “help get Trump elected and rub it in people’s faces.” You can’t just throw a tantrum about everyone that refuses to agree with you and then say ridiculous things that aren’t true.
EPT
