EPTKatowice pre 2021 became a wc just for the benefits of his legacy lol
Poor Dark, I am not even a big fan but he's seriously underrated.
#3: Rogue - Greatest Players of All Time - Page 11
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stilt
France2704 Posts
Katowice pre 2021 became a wc just for the benefits of his legacy lol Poor Dark, I am not even a big fan but he's seriously underrated. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany972 Posts
On February 29 2024 23:55 Regisko wrote: This is a horrible take, and let me kindly explain why: 1. His greatest achievement was redefining the game, being on another level compared to anyone else. He was (is) an extremely talented person. Times more capable than you within your areas of interest. Unfortunately, I have no clue what he's doing right now, but I hope he can implement his talent better. 2. "accelerated the death of the proleague" - you sound like a child without a beloved toy, and, in my heart, I'm totally with you here. But in reality, the proleague would die in any case, as Life and his situation is not the root cause. Know about Five whys technique? Try it here. 3. "equivalent of a federal crime" - my god, you're a moralist! You never broke any laws, sure, never? Never ever? We both know you did, dirty boy...  Would you like me to remind you of later law-related issues with KeSpa? He was a 14 (15?) yo boy with talent, temper, and no clue how to control it. This type requires guidance, not punishment.4. "you're just a piece of shit" - I assume it feels good to break the rules of speech but won't be punished because of the status? And, following good old post-ussr tradition, "you won't ever be brave enough to say this into his face." 5. "Community would have been better off if he never played." - It's similar to saying that community would have been better off if Mizenhauer had never written anything, based on your quoted comment. You wrote something stupid, yes, but you're still a good author overall. Same for Life, sorry. 1)Life was never "on another level compared to anyone else". Serral is on another level compared to anyone else. Mvp was on another level compared to anyone else. Life was just really good at his time, but he wasn't a cut above the rest. 2)Dude, a freaking COURT said the damage he caused was so big it in fact outweight his status as a minor. This isn't an opinion, it is a fact. Is it Lifes fault that we don't have Proleague in 2024? No. Is it his fault that we didn't have a Proleague in 2017? Yeah, it is. He is not the only reason of course, but he accelerated the decline of the league considerably. 3)My god, you're an idiot! Have I done things wrong? Yes, clearly. Have I broken federal laws (or the equivalent of them) and cause the industry that literally funded my life(style) major damages while simultaneously disappointed my fans around the globe? Uh...lemme check, but I feel like the answer to that is no... 4)Dunno how Life looks today, but if there is anyone in the entire Circuit of SC2 that I would have no problem to call a piece of shit to their face, it would be Life. Not only does he deserve it, but I'm rather sure I could take him. Some guy like ToD...yeah, no, dude is a menace. 5)Life did not contribute much to the community. Not even his "omg he is so young and so talented"-story is needed because of Maru. His play was so uninspiring and his "personality" so bland even as a huge Zerg fan I was rooting against him in both of his WCS Finals. The only reason we remember Life is for his conviction, everything else is trivia. | ||
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Moonerz
United States433 Posts
I'll have to look for it, but there was a video of some older programers sitting around a table and they were talking about how much the match fixing scandals hurt esports in Korea. Not to mention the cultural differences where gambling is actually a crime... The talent Life had made his actions even worse. If Maru and Life are going toe to toe for years who's to say it doesn't help increase sc2 popularity and keep interest a little higher. | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1753 Posts
On March 01 2024 01:17 Moonerz wrote: Once again people misunderstanding older events. Proleagues death was absolutely accelerated by Life's conduct, just like saviOr crippled the BW scene which led to sponsors pulling out etc. just that game was popular enough to withstand it. I'll have to look for it, but there was a video of some older programers sitting around a table and they were talking about how much the match fixing scandals hurt esports in Korea. Not to mention the cultural differences where gambling is actually a crime... The talent Life had made his actions even worse. If Maru and Life are going toe to toe for years who's to say it doesn't help increase sc2 popularity and keep interest a little higher. The biggest victim in all this are the dozens of players who lost out on an extra year (might just be wishful thinking, but another year seems plausible) of kespa team salary. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars across all the teams. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On March 01 2024 03:46 Mizenhauer wrote: The biggest victim in all this are the dozens of players who lost out on an extra year (might just be wishful thinking, but another year seems plausible) of kespa team salary. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars across all the teams. 100%. What Life did is absolutely inexcusable. I was never mad at him, and like a commenter earlier was trying to sympathize with him, I too tried to understand his position. It doesn't change how much damage his actions made. He simply had to be made an example of. Else, it could happen again. When punishment doesn't hurt, it doesn't work. As for hating/shaming him, or making him a pariah, that is something I don't agree with. He's human, subject to the same propensities for giving into temptations, like all humans. I have no negativity toward him, but honoring him with any kind of GOAT list attribution is really doing more of a disservice to the spirit of competition than his zealous fans understand. | ||
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Perceivere
131 Posts
On February 29 2024 18:40 SharkStarcraft wrote: God your comments make me angry. So uneducated and full of your own opinion. Some people get injured more easily, some people's bodies don't hold up over time, would you tell a person suffering from depression 'oh, but for me, doing XYZ after a stressful day helps me reset body and mind, should have tried that then'. Many athletes have career-ending injuries, and I find it extremely tactless to attribute all of these to their own carelessness. Also, is the first moon landing not to be taken seriously, as their technology and rockets were primitive to what we will have a century from now? In 2011, hundreds of players dedicated their whole lives to try and become what MVP achieved, the competition was arguably more fierce than at any point in the future due to the sheer amount of people trying their very hardest to achieve something! ok rant over. What an annoying mesage. "Hate your opinions, now listen to mines." I honestly don't care if he might just be naturally more prone to injury. The fact is that I can't give him something he didn't earn. I can't give him speculative awards. The fact is, MVP achieved a few big wins, and then his performance level petered off. Whether he did or didn't take effort to take care of his body is tangential. I don't understand the moon landing analogy. My point is clear. What children accomplish globally is fine and great...but I'm not interested in womens tennis, high school track meets, or minor league baseball. I'm more interested in what highest-potential players can do in the peak of their primes. That's where their true potentials are fully realized, and where the best vs the best looks the most incredible. The games between Clem and Serral, Serral and Maru, and Trap and Serral had been some of the most mind-blowing stuff I'd ever seen. When I go back to watch their games, I often play it in x0.25 speed over and over, and still can't comprehend how they pull off some of the wild, insane shit they did, again and again. I seldom got those feelings in the WoL and HotS days. | ||
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Comedy
449 Posts
On March 01 2024 03:46 Mizenhauer wrote: The biggest victim in all this are the dozens of players who lost out on an extra year (might just be wishful thinking, but another year seems plausible) of kespa team salary. That's hundreds of thousands of dollars across all the teams. Most likely in hindsight there's also a considerable amount that might be happy they got started on their next step in life a year early. Hanging around another year in a dying scene for a bit of money most likely isn't worth the same as a 1 year jumpstart on a new carreer. | ||
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Nasigil
137 Posts
On March 01 2024 04:39 Comedy wrote: Most likely in hindsight there's also a considerable amount that might be happy they got started on their next step in life a year early. Hanging around another year in a dying scene for a bit of money most likely isn't worth the same as a 1 year jumpstart on a new carreer. "Don't blame me for destroying your career and industry you work in by committing federal crime, I am just helping you jump start a new career early!" The excuses people make up for Life. Truly eye opening. | ||
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Starcloud
134 Posts
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Mizenhauer
United States1753 Posts
On March 01 2024 09:02 Starcloud wrote: Perhaps there should be entirely another thread for Life and his career in general. It is clearly stated that he doesnt belong in this list and most of us can understand why. The horse has been long dead already. Don't worry, once the final two articles come out we'll have far better things to discuss. | ||
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dysenterymd
1150 Posts
Hypothetically, Life probably could have won a lot more, he was an insane talent, but dwelling on hypothetical is pointless (what if Serral got to be in a Kespa house when he was getting started? What if there was no region lock and Maru could farm foreign tournaments? What if Inno stayed fully motivated?) | ||
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Comedy
449 Posts
On March 01 2024 05:02 Nasigil wrote: "Don't blame me for destroying your career and industry you work in by committing federal crime, I am just helping you jump start a new career early!" The excuses people make up for Life. Truly eye opening. No excuses for him. But what's the point of keeping with sc2 when it was dying in Korea? Life seems like a perfect excuse for proleague dying but it was going to die regardless. I am not sure it would have even lasted another year, obviously the teams wanted to get out of sc2 and they did so at the first oppurtunity. Unless you are a top20 player making a considerable amount of money that is going to help you further along in life, it was probably better for many to get out. To my knowledge, at least in the BW era, all those pro-teams had B teams with 10+ members and online practice partners that weren't getting paid anything and if you weren't a top5 player on a kespa team you weren't making any money. The people that were actually good enough kept going and were able to join foreign teams and win money in tournaments. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland22794 Posts
On March 01 2024 09:24 Comedy wrote: No excuses for him. But what's the point of keeping with sc2 when it was dying in Korea? Life seems like a perfect excuse for proleague dying but it was going to die regardless. I am not sure it would have even lasted another year, obviously the teams wanted to get out of sc2 and they did so at the first oppurtunity. Unless you are a top20 player making a considerable amount of money that is going to help you further along in life, it was probably better for many to get out. To my knowledge, at least in the BW era, all those pro-teams had B teams with 10+ members and online practice partners that weren't getting paid anything and if you weren't a top5 player on a kespa team you weren't making any money. Even another year is another year of actual salaried work that folks missed out on. I am frankly unsure on what non-elite players were earning in the Kespa regime, so there is that. Equally by virtue of going the progamer route these guys weren’t doing things like college, so it’s not as if they’re going to walk into many other careers at this point. | ||
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Comedy
449 Posts
On March 01 2024 09:31 WombaT wrote: Even another year is another year of actual salaried work that folks missed out on. I am frankly unsure on what non-elite players were earning in the Kespa regime, so there is that. Equally by virtue of going the progamer route these guys weren’t doing things like college, so it’s not as if they’re going to walk into many other careers at this point. non-elite players on kespa teams were not earning anything. In best case scenarios they got housing and food from the team house and then maybe a couple of hundred dollars a month for low level A-team players. B-teamers and practice partners got absolutely nothing. Luckily many of the guys that were skilled at BW went into streaming carreers on afreeca, and BW was already reviving around the time the life scandal happend (a bit before that). So there was that carreer available for them. SC2 afreeca streaming never took off the same way. Flash also jumped in early 2016 I think, it was the perfect time for many of them to jump. The BW Scene got built back up from the ground up and is now a behemoth once again in Korea, where even low level pros are earning good money thanks to the university teams and so on. | ||
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Balnazza
Germany972 Posts
On March 01 2024 09:41 Comedy wrote: non-elite players on kespa teams were not earning anything. In best case scenarios they got housing and food from the team house and then maybe a couple of hundred dollars a month for low level A-team players. B-teamers and practice partners got absolutely nothing. Luckily many of the guys that were skilled at BW went into streaming carreers on afreeca, and BW was already reviving around the time the life scandal happend (a bit before that). So there was that carreer available for them. SC2 afreeca streaming never took off the same way. Flash also jumped in early 2016 I think, it was the perfect time for many of them to jump. The BW Scene got built back up from the ground up and is now a behemoth once again in Korea, where even low level pros are earning good money thanks to the university teams and so on. I have no inside whatsoever into the workings of a Proleague team, but I really can't imagine "Non-Elite players" didn't get anything. I know for a fact that in the latest stages of Warcraft 3, when NGL was already collapsed and even WC3L was struggling hard (not that it was ever profitable) even smaller orgs paid atleast some of their players. And we are not talking about orgs having the backing of Samsung or KT or anything like that here - and that was in the midst of the 2008/10 financial crisis that completly burst the WC3 bubble (hello MYM) | ||
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SharkStarcraft
Austria2153 Posts
On March 01 2024 04:34 Perceivere wrote: What an annoying mesage. "Hate your opinions, now listen to mines." I honestly don't care if he might just be naturally more prone to injury. The fact is that I can't give him something he didn't earn. I can't give him speculative awards. The fact is, MVP achieved a few big wins, and then his performance level petered off. Whether he did or didn't take effort to take care of his body is tangential. I don't understand the moon landing analogy. My point is clear. What children accomplish globally is fine and great...but I'm not interested in womens tennis, high school track meets, or minor league baseball. I'm more interested in what highest-potential players can do in the peak of their primes. That's where their true potentials are fully realized, and where the best vs the best looks the most incredible. The games between Clem and Serral, Serral and Maru, and Trap and Serral had been some of the most mind-blowing stuff I'd ever seen. When I go back to watch their games, I often play it in x0.25 speed over and over, and still can't comprehend how they pull off some of the wild, insane shit they did, again and again. I seldom got those feelings in the WoL and HotS days. Your analogies make far less sense. What does women's tennis have to do with this discussion? My point is that at the time, this was the highest level Starcraft II one could watch, and the competition was incredibly fierce, thus MVP deserves recognition, even if the level of play was obviously not comparable to today. Was Pele not one of the all-time greats in football because goalkeepers didn't have their own coaching back then, letting in more shots than nowadays? Did the Beatles not make ground breaking records because the way their tracks are mixed in stereo is completely shit? (Drums in one ear, singing voice in the other). Achievements must be measured regarding the circumstances in which they were accomplished. And MVP accomplished more than anyone else during his prime, which deserved recognition. The fact that his prime was rather short-lived is irrelevant considering the metrics the author has outlined for this list, so this argument is also nonsensical - otherwise, people such as Rain would not have made the list and we could have simply looked at total money earned to define greatness. | ||
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Harris1st
Germany6580 Posts
Take the Tour de France for example: Lance Armstrong admitted to doping and has not won a single Tour de France. | ||
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Gilgamesh_
28 Posts
Along these lines, I cannot understand the wish to cancel "Life" not only as a SC2 pro gamer but as a person. I do not wish to see him play SC2 again but I would be interested to hear what happened to him lately and I do feel empathy for him as a "fallen hero". | ||
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Ciaus237
South Africa251 Posts
On March 01 2024 18:59 Gilgamesh_ wrote: While it appears justified to me to keep "Life" out of any discussions for GOT, I have to say that I find it very unsettling to read how people in this forum write about crime and justice in his case. I am surprised that a lot of people seem to prefer punishment over reintegration, which actually should be the focus of penitentiary systems in "western" countries which includes Korea. It is understandable that "Life" is banned from future competition in SC similar to e.g. Lance Armstrong in cycling, but expressing a wish for him to be humiliated or maybe even physically punished for his crime is wild to me. That is to me even more shocking considering that he was a minor, which should further put the focus on reintegration (in society, not necessarily SC 2 ;-) ) rather than justice as a primary means of punishment. Along these lines, I cannot understand the wish to cancel "Life" not only as a SC2 pro gamer but as a person. I do not wish to see him play SC2 again but I would be interested to hear what happened to him lately and I do feel empathy for him as a "fallen hero". Yeah, some psycho stuff in this thread. A dumb teenager accepted money to lose some matches. Did this massively impact the scene? Yes. Should he be considered on a `greatest of all time' list? No. But we shouldn't go looking to hope he suffers like he's some monster in a human shell. Christ. | ||
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LeFaucheurishere
2 Posts
All maru did in big international events is literally choking. Lost 3-4 against Life in Taipei 2015 ; Lost 3-4 against TY in wesg 2016 ; Lost 3-0 (!!!) when he was the overwhelming favorite at blizzcon 2018 against sos ; Reverse swept by Rogue at IEM katowice 2018 where he was, again, the overwhelming favorite ; Lost 3-2 AGAIN against Rogue in semis of kato 2020 ; Reverse swept by Reynor at kato 2021 ; Has literraly the EASIEST RUN in kato 2023 facing Ragnarok in semis and oliveira in finals and still manages to get destroyed 4-1; and got swept most recently 4-0 in finals by serral in 2024. The one and only finals he won at an international event is against Dark in 2017 and it wasn't flawless at all. "Yeah but he is still so dominant in korea !!" ? He won GSLs because the format allows preparation and is favored for terrans. If you take is GSL ST wins, in the span of 5-6 years of GSL ST he just won ONE. At the same time Rogue is by far the most clutch and the most dominant player in premier tournaments in history. If we just take 2017, he already won more international tournaments than Maru, with IEM shangai and Blizzcon. He went undefeated in offline tournaments from september 2017 to april 2018 with a record of 12-0 ("but rogue isn't consistent") and managed to do what no one ever did in history, by winning Blizzcon and then Katowice. He has 2 iem Katowice, 1 blizzcon, 1 IEM shangai, undefeated in finals and never even went to game 7 in finals ; 13-1 in offline bo7s ; still has 4 GSLs and WON AGAINST MARU in GSL finals (completely dominated him). Even if we take what many people view as one of Maru's greatest accomplishments, carrying Jin air in Proleague, it's not even that impressive. In 2015 Maru has a record of 27-15 (63%) where Rogue is at 26-14 (65%), and again, when it matters the most, Rogue is at 3-0 in ace matches and maru is at 3-2. Again, in finals against SKT, when it mattered the most, Rogue won his match against Dark while Maru lost against Dream. The only season where Maru is way above the others is 2016 and he didn't even play a single ace match. Not to add that Maru, against the 2 real best players of all time, Rogue and serral, is at 25% (1-3) against serral in offline bo5+, and at 30% (3-7) against Rogue. For me, esport and sport isn't about statistics, beauty or anything. It's about winning. And if we talk about winning, Maru is far, far, far below Rogue. He isn't even close. Maybe he plays well, he has an enjoyable playstyle, he is the only terran fans can support deep in tournaments, but this just doesn't change anything. Yes, he is a great player, and one of the greatest, but he is no way near Rogue's legacy. | ||
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