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On February 17 2024 19:20 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 08:23 FFXthebest wrote:
GSL is overrated these days
Preparation is just a good excuse to use when Serral’s stomps the Koreans.
if you watch the GSL’s hardly any of the games are unique or has a specific prepared build. The only Koreans that really showed us “prepared” builds were Classic and Rogue
Every pro in the world will choose IEM Katowice over GSL.
GSL you can fail and try again next season, whereas you only have one chance at Katowice during the year Not just that, but it sure looked like Serral had some builds specifically prepared for Maru. He didn't bust out roach rushes against Clem. So what makes it so that Serral can prepare specific builds for Maru in a weekender, but Maru could only do so in the GSL?
Maybe because Maru had 20 minutes to prepare but Serral had like 2 hours
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My personal point of view is that Legacy of the Void has been a game design shitshow, and that heavily dilutes Serral's (otherwise very impressive) achievements. This means that I consider Maru to be the GOAT because he was dominant in versions of the game that I consider to be better designed.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 17 2024 20:43 MJG wrote:
My personal point of view is that Legacy of the Void has been a game design shitshow, and that heavily dilutes Serral's (otherwise very impressive) achievements. This means that I consider Maru to be the GOAT because he was dominant in versions of the game that I consider to be better designed.
He was never really dominant in HotS, ‘merely’ one of the top dogs. If one is making that kind of cutoff it kind of necessitates Maru swapping to being a top 10 player rather than competing for the number 1 slot
I think ultimately Legacy made some design decisions that ultimately bolstered Zerg macro play, especially the more things got figured out. And on a more general level, I think 12 workers was on balance a mistake and not the way to go about trying to spread the action out and make it less deathbally. But I think I dislike that call more from a fundamental design level than just one of pure balance.
But it hasn’t been that extreme. Serral’s earlier big wins came at a time when Maru did his four-peat, and he was regularly facing and having to play excellently to beat the likes of Stats or a Classic in latter stages of these big tournies. TvZ and PvZ weren’t in that bad a shape. Inno beat him at WESG to win his last big tournament.
Katowice 2018
1st - Rogue
2nd - Classic
3rd/4th - Serral, Maru
5th thru 8th - TY, Solar, Trap, Dear
To just pick one example, in retrospect that’s a pretty damn healthy looking Ro8 compared to now. Zergs were still ultimately winning some of these big prizes,
Latterly, the past year or two it feels that Serral’s just a small notch above his fellow Zergs, and the rest are still eminently beatable. Plenty of TvZers can beat, if aren’t necessarily favoured bar maybe Clem and Maru the rest of the top Zergs. herO on a good day can beat the Zergs not named Serral, as he showed back-to-back at Masters Colisseum and Katowice.
Unfortunately I guess the talent is just too thin on the ground now, mostly for Protoss, for it to really matter all that much what the actual state of balance is.
I’d definitely concede that there are chunks in the middle where Zerg was just too potent overall. There were definitely periods where the betting was basically ‘which of the Big 4 Zergs’ being miles out in front of literally anyone else. But Serral’s span has just been too long for that to have been the case for its entirety.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 17 2024 16:43 RPR_Tempest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 11:46 FFXthebest wrote:On February 17 2024 11:43 phodacbiet wrote:
People acting like giving a week to prepare for Serral suddenly means there's a much higher chance of beating him or something. The odds are still the same as if you're running into him at a weekend tournament. Do you think Maru, Dark, Cure, or whichever top Koreans go into these weekend tournament blind? There's a ton of Serral vods, replays, and highlights out there. They are going into these tournaments prepping for who they will run into at the later stage of the tourneys and it's always the same people: Reynor, Clem, Maru, Dark, Serral, and usually one of those Protoss players that havent retired yet.
What is prepping a week in advance for only Serral is going to do that they can't do when they're at home preparing for a weekend tournament? If they are going to cheese him in GSL, they would bust it out at the weekend tournament. If they are going to macro into a specific build against him in GSL, they would do so as well in a weekend tournament. People forget that giving Maru a week to prep for Serral means Serral has a week to prep against Maru as well. It's not like Serral isn't farming the GSL koreans lol. It’s the only coping method the KR elitist and Serral’s haters are grabbing onto. GSL preparation is overrated for years. It was exaggerated cause preparation was done during the early years when the game were still not figure out yet. If you want to ignore the long time historic precedent of weaker players sniping better players with specifically prepared builds across literal years of competition and different games then sure
There’s less of it in recent years, or at least it feels it. Perhaps it’s just a perception/memory thing, but I recall much more of it in groups, where weaker players were sniping better players, than in playoffs where roughly equal players would use it to gain an edge.
Scarlett doing a spine rush to topple Rogue, sOs’ legendary proxy nexus. Bunny pulling out some funkiness on Reynor etc.
Whereas Rogue Roaching Maru to death to once again deny the man his G5L was the last one I really recall.
There’s obviously not zero prep, but it feels top clashes more resemble a weekender equivalent than they used to, where you rotate around openers and play very standard games, with maybe a few pocket builds. Maybe the game is just that much more figured out, there’s less funky maps that facilitate bespoke strats, or maybe there’s just less depth so the top guys can go deep by just playing standard, and consider it the percentage play versus potentially donating a set if something weird and wonderful doesn’t come off.
In retrospect I feel it kinda sucks that Reynor got sniped. Full props to the likes of Rabbit ofc, but it was the last time a potential contender went over there from foreign land, and Reynor certainly wasn’t doing it for the cash. But now there’s an even bigger economic hit, and Code S is further contracted. Feels there’s close to zero reason for a foreigner who might win it to go decamp to Korea
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United States1749 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 16:43 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 17 2024 11:46 FFXthebest wrote:On February 17 2024 11:43 phodacbiet wrote:
People acting like giving a week to prepare for Serral suddenly means there's a much higher chance of beating him or something. The odds are still the same as if you're running into him at a weekend tournament. Do you think Maru, Dark, Cure, or whichever top Koreans go into these weekend tournament blind? There's a ton of Serral vods, replays, and highlights out there. They are going into these tournaments prepping for who they will run into at the later stage of the tourneys and it's always the same people: Reynor, Clem, Maru, Dark, Serral, and usually one of those Protoss players that havent retired yet.
What is prepping a week in advance for only Serral is going to do that they can't do when they're at home preparing for a weekend tournament? If they are going to cheese him in GSL, they would bust it out at the weekend tournament. If they are going to macro into a specific build against him in GSL, they would do so as well in a weekend tournament. People forget that giving Maru a week to prep for Serral means Serral has a week to prep against Maru as well. It's not like Serral isn't farming the GSL koreans lol. It’s the only coping method the KR elitist and Serral’s haters are grabbing onto. GSL preparation is overrated for years. It was exaggerated cause preparation was done during the early years when the game were still not figure out yet. If you want to ignore the long time historic precedent of weaker players sniping better players with specifically prepared builds across literal years of competition and different games then sure There’s less of it in recent years, or at least it feels it. Perhaps it’s just a perception/memory thing, but I recall much more of it in groups, where weaker players were sniping better players, than in playoffs where roughly equal players would use it to gain an edge. Scarlett doing a spine rush to topple Rogue, sOs’ legendary proxy nexus. Bunny pulling out some funkiness on Reynor etc. Whereas Rogue Roaching Maru to death to once again deny the man his G5L was the last one I really recall. There’s obviously not zero prep, but it feels top clashes more resemble a weekender equivalent than they used to, where you rotate around openers and play very standard games, with maybe a few pocket builds. Maybe the game is just that much more figured out, there’s less funky maps that facilitate bespoke strats, or maybe there’s just less depth so the top guys can go deep by just playing standard, and consider it the percentage play versus potentially donating a set if something weird and wonderful doesn’t come off. In retrospect I feel it kinda sucks that Reynor got sniped. Full props to the likes of Rabbit ofc, but it was the last time a potential contender went over there from foreign land, and Reynor certainly wasn’t doing it for the cash. But now there’s an even bigger economic hit, and Code S is further contracted. Feels there’s close to zero reason for a foreigner who might win it to go decamp to Korea
The ability to prep for series is really muddled for much of SC2 history as KeSPA players were paid to participate in Proleague. If you had an Code S match coming up, but you were also slated to appear in Proleague that week, the focus is on Proleague. How much this detracted from players getting to prep to the fullest is impossible to predict, but it is a factor worth noting.
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On February 17 2024 22:49 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 20:43 MJG wrote:
My personal point of view is that Legacy of the Void has been a game design shitshow, and that heavily dilutes Serral's (otherwise very impressive) achievements. This means that I consider Maru to be the GOAT because he was dominant in versions of the game that I consider to be better designed. He was never really dominant in HotS, ‘merely’ one of the top dogs. If one is making that kind of cutoff it kind of necessitates Maru swapping to being a top 10 player rather than competing for the number 1 slot.
You're right, I'm misremembering how dominant Maru was in Heart of the Swarm.
But I still don't believe achievements in Legacy of the Void are worth nearly as much as those that came before.
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United States1749 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:18 MJG wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 22:49 WombaT wrote:On February 17 2024 20:43 MJG wrote:
My personal point of view is that Legacy of the Void has been a game design shitshow, and that heavily dilutes Serral's (otherwise very impressive) achievements. This means that I consider Maru to be the GOAT because he was dominant in versions of the game that I consider to be better designed. He was never really dominant in HotS, ‘merely’ one of the top dogs. If one is making that kind of cutoff it kind of necessitates Maru swapping to being a top 10 player rather than competing for the number 1 slot. You're right, I'm misremembering how good Maru was in Heart of the Swarm. But I still don't believe achievements in Legacy of the Void are worth nearly as much as those that came before.
Maru was the best Terran in the world for the first 2/3rds of 2014 (and arguably the best Korean player overall) and the first half of 2015 (where he and life were the defacto best players). He won OSL (beating the best two players in the world in the semis/finals) and SSL and made a ton of Round of 4s while ranking among the winningest players in Proleague.
You really couldn't dominate in Hots the way Maru has from 2018 onwards. INnoVation, Rain, Maru and Classic won more KIL than anyone in Hots, but each of them only won twice across a roughly 4 year period. It's safe to say that Maru's achievements in Hots are on par or better than everyone who played the expansion.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 17 2024 23:16 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 23:06 WombaT wrote:On February 17 2024 16:43 RPR_Tempest wrote:On February 17 2024 11:46 FFXthebest wrote:On February 17 2024 11:43 phodacbiet wrote:
People acting like giving a week to prepare for Serral suddenly means there's a much higher chance of beating him or something. The odds are still the same as if you're running into him at a weekend tournament. Do you think Maru, Dark, Cure, or whichever top Koreans go into these weekend tournament blind? There's a ton of Serral vods, replays, and highlights out there. They are going into these tournaments prepping for who they will run into at the later stage of the tourneys and it's always the same people: Reynor, Clem, Maru, Dark, Serral, and usually one of those Protoss players that havent retired yet.
What is prepping a week in advance for only Serral is going to do that they can't do when they're at home preparing for a weekend tournament? If they are going to cheese him in GSL, they would bust it out at the weekend tournament. If they are going to macro into a specific build against him in GSL, they would do so as well in a weekend tournament. People forget that giving Maru a week to prep for Serral means Serral has a week to prep against Maru as well. It's not like Serral isn't farming the GSL koreans lol. It’s the only coping method the KR elitist and Serral’s haters are grabbing onto. GSL preparation is overrated for years. It was exaggerated cause preparation was done during the early years when the game were still not figure out yet. If you want to ignore the long time historic precedent of weaker players sniping better players with specifically prepared builds across literal years of competition and different games then sure There’s less of it in recent years, or at least it feels it. Perhaps it’s just a perception/memory thing, but I recall much more of it in groups, where weaker players were sniping better players, than in playoffs where roughly equal players would use it to gain an edge. Scarlett doing a spine rush to topple Rogue, sOs’ legendary proxy nexus. Bunny pulling out some funkiness on Reynor etc. Whereas Rogue Roaching Maru to death to once again deny the man his G5L was the last one I really recall. There’s obviously not zero prep, but it feels top clashes more resemble a weekender equivalent than they used to, where you rotate around openers and play very standard games, with maybe a few pocket builds. Maybe the game is just that much more figured out, there’s less funky maps that facilitate bespoke strats, or maybe there’s just less depth so the top guys can go deep by just playing standard, and consider it the percentage play versus potentially donating a set if something weird and wonderful doesn’t come off. In retrospect I feel it kinda sucks that Reynor got sniped. Full props to the likes of Rabbit ofc, but it was the last time a potential contender went over there from foreign land, and Reynor certainly wasn’t doing it for the cash. But now there’s an even bigger economic hit, and Code S is further contracted. Feels there’s close to zero reason for a foreigner who might win it to go decamp to Korea The ability to prep for series is really muddled for much of SC2 history as KeSPA players were paid to participate in Proleague. If you had a Code S match coming up, but you were also slated to appear in Proleague that week, the focus is on Proleague. How much this detracted from players getting to prep to the fullest is impossible to predict, but it is a factor worth noting.
That scheduling and priority issue did always irk me, so well-noted.
But if anything I think we’re seeing less GSL prep now, or at least the past couple of years, than previously, and that’s without that conflict and impediment.
Lacking an ‘in’ to what happens behind cold doors, one can only guess of course. A wonky, unique build will look obviously prepared, but a well-executed standard game less so. It doesn’t necessarily mean it wasn’t prepared. Maybe player x spent 10 games testing out that weird build, found it worked well in those practice games, and played 100 straight-up standard games against their practice partner, seeing playing like that as the optimal way that needed plenty of prep.
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wow, its been that long since i posted the email i subcribed with in 2010 ish i no longer have!
OP, i categorically have to say yes. serral would have won the gsl many times over. its as simple as that. he has handed the asses of every player in the gsl. im just going to say it, insert any god player. serral would have beaten them all. Yes we are fond of the good old days, nestea, flash, jaedong, polt, life, maru, idra(the goat for me, just never felt the same way about sc when he retired) just name any one of them. Serrals play when he burst on the scene was like chess, the moves were always there, someone came along with a renewed vigour. He i would say improved the play of sc and everyone still playing 10 fold. Hes the best there ever was at the same hands down. weve had some pretty greast players but serral would win the gsl more times than not i believe. oh well. sg is round the corner, its not looking too good from my point of view so lets hope this glorious game keeps going.
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On February 17 2024 20:43 MJG wrote:
My personal point of view is that Legacy of the Void has been a game design shitshow, and that heavily dilutes Serral's (otherwise very impressive) achievements. This means that I consider Maru to be the GOAT because he was dominant in versions of the game that I consider to be better designed.
Nice try on revision on history. Maru was mid tier player in WOL and HOTS. If we are just talking about terrans, he sits comfortably behind innovation Taeja MMA and maybe Dream during HOTS period.
Cool, the kid had won a SSL, guess what many other players won something similar during that period as well. Dear, classic, stardust, MC etc. it was until 2018 that’s when he started to make a name out of himself
Skill wise, HOTS games were quite low level compare to now. The micro and macro was laughably bad compare to players now. GM players now could probably win everything
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United States1749 Posts
On February 18 2024 00:27 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 20:43 MJG wrote:
My personal point of view is that Legacy of the Void has been a game design shitshow, and that heavily dilutes Serral's (otherwise very impressive) achievements. This means that I consider Maru to be the GOAT because he was dominant in versions of the game that I consider to be better designed. Nice try on revision on history. Maru was mid tier player in WOL and HOTS. If we are just talking about terrans, he sits comfortably behind innovation Taeja MMA and maybe Dream during HOTS period. Cool, the kid had won a SSL, guess what many other players won something similar during that period as well. Dear, classic, stardust, MC etc. it was until 2018 that’s when he started to make a name out of himself Skill wise, HOTS games were quite low level compare to now. The micro and macro was laughably bad compare to players now. GM players now could probably win everything
Dream ahead Maru of is one of the funniest thing I've ever seen. Dream has a losing record in two of the three matchups when it comes to Code S (he does has very good TvP on a small sample size, but he has a losing record overall). He won zero Korean lans during his career and never won a Premier Event all while being worse in Proleague in Maru. Putting MMA and TaeJa above him is equally ludicrous, but good effort!
PS in case you're wondering, here are Dream's career Code S stats.
![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/dream.jpg)
34-41 overall and 4-12 vs Terran.........................
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On February 17 2024 20:25 Charoisaur wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 19:20 Acrofales wrote:On February 15 2024 08:23 FFXthebest wrote:
GSL is overrated these days
Preparation is just a good excuse to use when Serral’s stomps the Koreans.
if you watch the GSL’s hardly any of the games are unique or has a specific prepared build. The only Koreans that really showed us “prepared” builds were Classic and Rogue
Every pro in the world will choose IEM Katowice over GSL.
GSL you can fail and try again next season, whereas you only have one chance at Katowice during the year Not just that, but it sure looked like Serral had some builds specifically prepared for Maru. He didn't bust out roach rushes against Clem. So what makes it so that Serral can prepare specific builds for Maru in a weekender, but Maru could only do so in the GSL? Maybe because Maru had 20 minutes to prepare but Serral had like 2 hours
I somehow don't think Several brainstormed a roach rush in the 2 hours leading up to the finals. I suspect he spent a good amount of time before Katowice studying VODs and replays of Maru to make sure he knew how he played, and decided that playing big macro games against him on specific maps was not a great idea. So he figured out alternatives. Just like it's obvious that he didn't craft a build order and placement for Equilibrium in the few hours before fighting Dark. That was clearly the brainchild of the European Zerg collective in preparation for Katowice.
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On February 18 2024 02:46 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 20:25 Charoisaur wrote:On February 17 2024 19:20 Acrofales wrote:On February 15 2024 08:23 FFXthebest wrote:
GSL is overrated these days
Preparation is just a good excuse to use when Serral’s stomps the Koreans.
if you watch the GSL’s hardly any of the games are unique or has a specific prepared build. The only Koreans that really showed us “prepared” builds were Classic and Rogue
Every pro in the world will choose IEM Katowice over GSL.
GSL you can fail and try again next season, whereas you only have one chance at Katowice during the year Not just that, but it sure looked like Serral had some builds specifically prepared for Maru. He didn't bust out roach rushes against Clem. So what makes it so that Serral can prepare specific builds for Maru in a weekender, but Maru could only do so in the GSL? Maybe because Maru had 20 minutes to prepare but Serral had like 2 hours I somehow don't think Several brainstormed a roach rush in the 2 hours leading up to the finals. I suspect he spent a good amount of time before Katowice studying VODs and replays of Maru to make sure he knew how he played, and decided that playing big macro games against him on specific maps was not a great idea. So he figured out alternatives. Just like it's obvious that he didn't craft a build order and placement for Equilibrium in the few hours before fighting Dark. That was clearly the brainchild of the European Zerg collective in preparation for Katowice.
Oh I'm sure he didn't come up with the builds in the 2 hours on the fly without having practiced them before, but having 2 hours instead of 20 minutes to make specific plans on which map which builds exactly will be played is definitely an advantage
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
If you’ve prepped it’s a matter of taking out your notebook or phone app or whatever and refreshing yourself on what you already did. It shouldn’t make a difference if it’s 20 mins or two hours in terms of prep.
I could see it being impactful in terms of rhythm and mentality. Or if Maru had been playing a TvZ and had to show his hand so to speak.
That quick, and uneven turnaround before the Grand Finals I’d absolutely file in my ‘shouldn’t be the case for various reasons, but not really a factor for this specific thing’ folder
Also Maru did prep, he ultimately lost because it’s a garbage map for super late game TvZ, but he had a pretty tailored gameplan for Radushet. He played very greedily indeed, the map’s architecture for your initial setup is actually pretty good for almost guaranteeing that Maru gets to his lategame setup, and he exploited it well.
He just couldn’t close it out because Radhuset swings wildly from actually being good for ‘turtle Terran’ with the initial buildup, to absolutely awful by the time you’re trying to secure the north and southmost peripheral bases.
I’m also not so sure it’s all that great for all-inning Zergs anyway, and indeed if we’re talking mind games and set planning, if there’s one map that Serral would expect just that, it’s the map he picked and is known to be hard for Terran’s at this level. So it seems a pretty smart mindgame and gameplan for Maru to just go hyper-greed, and he almost did it. If Serral had planned to be more aggressive, and Maru soaked it up and picked him apart with a huge eco we would have been saying it was a set-planning masterpiece.
We also saw some of his cyclone shenanigans, which he doesn’t exactly bring out all that often. Serral just seemed to have the answers that a recent victim like Reynor did not
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woops posted in wrong topic
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On February 18 2024 00:27 FFXthebest wrote:Show nested quote +On February 17 2024 20:43 MJG wrote:
My personal point of view is that Legacy of the Void has been a game design shitshow, and that heavily dilutes Serral's (otherwise very impressive) achievements. This means that I consider Maru to be the GOAT because he was dominant in versions of the game that I consider to be better designed. Nice try on revision on history. Maru was mid tier player in WOL and HOTS. If we are just talking about terrans, he sits comfortably behind innovation Taeja MMA and maybe Dream during HOTS period. Cool, the kid had won a SSL, guess what many other players won something similar during that period as well. Dear, classic, stardust, MC etc. it was until 2018 that’s when he started to make a name out of himself
I already admitted above that I was wrong about Maru being dominant during Heart of the Swarm, but I believe Mizenhauer has shown that you might be over doing it in the other direction.
Skill wise, HOTS games were quite low level compare to now. The micro and macro was laughably bad compare to players now. GM players now could probably win everything
Skill wise, football was quite low level in the 1970s compared to now, but Pele is still considered to be one of the greatest players of all time. He wouldn't shine in a modern team, but damn did he shine back then.
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There can’t be a consensus GOAT in sc2
Because people cant be objective, but he is the GOAT, period.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 18 2024 07:00 CerebrateHector wrote:Because people cant be objective, but he is the GOAT, period.
Objective how?
The scene isn’t as strong as it was at its peak, hasn’t been for a long time.
In BW it’s pretty easy, they had roughly the same structure for fucking forever and Flash outdid everyone, he’s a pretty clear GOAT
SC2 doesn’t really have that.
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On February 18 2024 07:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2024 07:00 CerebrateHector wrote:There can’t be a consensus GOAT in sc2 Because people cant be objective, but he is the GOAT, period. Objective how? The scene isn’t as strong as it was at its peak, hasn’t been for a long time.In BW it’s pretty easy, they had roughly the same structure for fucking forever and Flash outdid everyone, he’s a pretty clear GOAT SC2 doesn’t really have that.
What do you mean when you say this? People say this often enough that it's essentially a truism but I don't know what anyone means when they say it beyond "some of the top players are the same people, they are older than they were, and their mechanics are worse to some degree due to aging and less practice," but that can't be the only thing we're talking about.
Speaking of Flash, I recall reading or hearing (it may have been mentioned during ASL commentary, but I don't recall) that he'd claimed that if he knew then that he knows now he would have won everything. It's harder to make that kind of claim in SC2, of course, because SC2 changes so much more. But I know a similar discussion about a decline in mechanical ability has taken place in the post-KeSPA era of BW. It's just harder to take that long term perspective in SC2 because if you say "Flash in 2018 knew so much more about BW than he did in 2011" it's comparing his knowledge of the same thing at two different points in time, whereas if you said "Maru in 2023 was more knowledgeable about LotV than he was about HotS in 2015", that might be true but it's still not comparing like to like.
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Northern Ireland22462 Posts
On February 18 2024 08:02 Mumei wrote:Show nested quote +On February 18 2024 07:06 WombaT wrote:On February 18 2024 07:00 CerebrateHector wrote:There can’t be a consensus GOAT in sc2 Because people cant be objective, but he is the GOAT, period. Objective how? The scene isn’t as strong as it was at its peak, hasn’t been for a long time.In BW it’s pretty easy, they had roughly the same structure for fucking forever and Flash outdid everyone, he’s a pretty clear GOAT SC2 doesn’t really have that. What do you mean when you say this? People say this often enough that it's essentially a truism but I don't know what anyone means when they say it beyond "some of the top players are the same people, they are older than they were, and their mechanics are worse to some degree due to aging and less practice," but that can't be the only thing we're talking about. Speaking of Flash, I recall reading or hearing (it may have been mentioned during ASL commentary, but I don't recall) that he'd claimed that if he knew then that he knows now he would have won everything. It's harder to make that kind of claim in SC2, of course, because SC2 changes so much more. But I know a similar discussion about a decline in mechanical ability has taken place in the post-KeSPA era of BW. It's just harder to take that long term perspective in SC2 because if you say "Flash in 2018 knew so much more about BW than he did in 2011" it's comparing his knowledge of the same thing at two different points in time, whereas if you said "Maru in 2023 was more knowledgeable about LotV than he was about HotS in 2015", that might be true but it's still not comparing like to like.
I meant what I said.
Flash was so fucking good at BW be made a Ro4 playing random
The issue isn’t pure skill level, it’s competition.
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EPT
