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On February 15 2024 14:44 luxon wrote:
lol at counting this year's results towards anyone's legacy given that almost every korean is studying to go back to school or has a side job. nobody's gsl's should be counted since last year.
Valid argument (kind of). But, but, acronym GOAT comes from words, you know.
While nobody can objectively extent the meaning to a future from the present now, the very definition of GOAT must include today now, otherwise we don't talk about the GOAT.
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On February 15 2024 09:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
The last four GOAT articles are gonna be fire with all the nonsense going on since Serral won.
Considering you guys left up a thread literally titled: "The death of SC2 as a competitive e-sport," because Serral 4-0ed Maru in the biggest tournament of the year, and then abdicated any kind of editorial responsibility as the historical guardians of Starcraft for the second time because the result offended whomever initially agreed to write the recap--forgive me if my faith in the integrity of the forthcoming list is shaken.
(Happy to be wrong on this and apologize/retract my previous sentiment)
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Since legacy of the legacy guys was somehow tarnished by Serral's manhandlings, it is of course proper, objective, methodology to interrupt the process as soon as undesirable effects appear. Considering the past practices in these matters in relation to Serral, it seems that kind of cut-and-cherry pick-method is used. Methodology doesn't have to limit itself to only the moment of END of ALL TIMES, you can freely cut-and-pick also middle of the time line if necessary for needs to secure legacy guys resumes untarnished.
In this kind of methodological application it is ultimately irrelevant are the evaluation criteria solid at all. In the GOAT discussion probably everyone is very aware of the fact that GOAT 2014 or GOAT 2015 are intrinsically asymmetric in their position compared to the GOAT of 2018, GOAT of 2023, or GOAT of 2076.
Besides, Cut-and-pick methodology impact directly also to those 'untarnished legacy guys', For example, if Serral's Katowice 2024 win doesn't count to his legacy, neither does BO4 or Finals appearance of the losers of that same tournament.
(Intent of this and several other recent comments of mine are mostly obsoleted due Publication of 'Serral wins IEM Katowice 2024'. Apology accepted.)
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On February 15 2024 12:06 WombaT wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 10:53 dysenterymd wrote:On February 15 2024 07:25 StuDToSs wrote:
...Would that help his GOAT candidacy more?
My brother argues that GSL is a more difficult tournament due to how much preparation time is allotted between a player's matches.
He continued by saying that in foreigner tournaments like Katowice the time between a player's next match is usually the following day where the whole tournament finishes within a week and the lack of preparation prevents players from getting the most out of themselves.
This combined with his opinion that facing the best Koreans who are incredibly prepared for their matches make it much harder than any international event.
Thoughts? A GSL today? Absolutely not. If Serral had won a GSL in 2017 it would probably contribute to his GOAT claim more in some peoples' eyes. I don't know what the conversion factor of GSL to world championships was while GSL was deep (2 to 1?), but a GSL today is IMO worth less than winning a season final. Agreed, it’s a different challenge, and a different format to conquer, but the depth just isn’t there anymore. This goes for Koreans as well, winning a GSL isn’t as meaningful for their legacy either, in large part because Serral and a lesser but still impactful degree, a Reynor or a Clem aren’t there. This was fine when you had 20/15/10 really top notch, evenly matched players who are just outright better than everyone else except that outlying guy. Now I think it’s not outrageous to say that of the current world top 10, GSL is missing at least 3. It’s a crying shame really that a scene that brought so much joy to many didn’t get much of a helping hand from elsewhere to at least partly address the decline.
Well, if Code S still had a big prize pool I'd consider it super prestigious even though 3 of the top 10 are missing. I don't doubt that the Korean players try hard to win Code S, but obviously a lower prize-pool event counts less towards your legacy even with fierce competition.
Also the degree to which Code S rewards preparation is greatly diminished with the finals and semifinals being played on the same day. Instead of having 3 playoff matches that a player has to prep deeply for, they have to prep for a 4 player bracket once.
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Being able to constantly be the best without preparation is a skill in itself.
Having players prepare their games means measuring their preparation potential over their actual skill floor.
Skill floor wise, Serral is leagues above all, skill ceiling wise we'll never know since he never went to GSL but I think he would have done pretty well.
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Any Korean pro knows it is almost certain they are going to face Serral in the playoffs if they want to win the tournament.
How long has it been? 5 years? Not enough time to prepare some snipe builds?
If Serral played in GSL it wouldn't help his candidancy as GOAT, it would actually help GSL candidancy as the most difficult tournament.
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1) A wild part of this is that he 3-0ed Clem, the 2nd best Terran in the world ATM, and STILL had snipe builds ready for Maru
2) We will never see him play a Finals with true prep time in an environment like Peak GSL -- even GSL doesn't really have the "prep time" factor it used to -- and that's a bummer. It would have been fascinating to see Serral go up against one of Korea's best after an entire teamhouse of top guys had a week to come up with a game plan against him -- it used to be unthinkable for a guy living alone to be the best SC2 player in the world, let alone someone living outside of KR.
3) To be clear, Serral's my GOAT, but some of these hypotheticals are a little interesting. However, "some of these hypotheticals are a little interesting" isn't really a compelling argument vs. "he won't stop destroying everyone he faces."
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On February 15 2024 23:34 Spirral wrote:
Any Korean pro knows it is almost certain they are going to face Serral in the playoffs if they want to win the tournament.
How long has it been? 5 years? Not enough time to prepare some snipe builds?
If Serral played in GSL it wouldn't help his candidancy as GOAT, it would actually help GSL candidancy as the most difficult tournament.
Well that’s the only excuse the Korean elitist has to cope.
To be honest, there is hardly any prepared build is ANY GSL games for the last 5-6 years. All games are pretty much standard games, with the exception of Classic and Rogue games. (They actually come up with some fun builds)
GSL has been weak since 2018, the hardest tournaments are the once’s Serral’s attends
Home story cup > GSL.
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United States1921 Posts
On February 15 2024 12:23 esReveR wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 09:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
The last four GOAT articles are gonna be fire with all the nonsense going on since Serral won. I mean, it seems like you're intentionally making a questionable list to drive more site traffic through heated discussions. I'd be more surprised if your top 4 made sense, than if they caused more controversy.
This actually might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site. You do realize I have an editor right? Even if I was farming you for views (make sure to visit tl.net in public libraries, ideally on as many computers as possible) you really think that would get through my standards and Wax's? Also, The fact that you think I'd stir up shit on an article series with so much gravity is NONSENSE.
Keep making posts that add nothing of consequence to the discussion other than make noise for noise's sake 
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There must be some way to circumvent this eternally locked regionalism of GSL. Maybe Serral and other prominent SC2 producer individuals could organize The Great Serral League, where prize money would be partially surrendered by Serral (from his IEM katowice 2022 and 2024 winnings for example), from other Dudes (like Wardi) and sponsors, from growd funding, and from other commercial sources. Finnish Defence Forces could provide some helping hand and facilities for apparent PR-benefits. The GSL would be at least first Invitational (during Serral's handicapping military service) but would in theory ease a lot the participation of Korean pros serving in their military, if FDF would push the issue a little bit. Two seasons would fit pretty nicely within time frame of Serral's military service in the sports school, and for convenience and coziness they could be easily labelled as 'Code S' too (S for Serral). All Korean GSL elite would be invited as well as Foreigner elite. Tournaments would be held in real field camp environment and guys could enjoy FDF's nice warm tents during their tournament visit. 3 tournament GSL would be possible if Serral is selected to go through longer NCO or Reserve Officer course. Saudi money could be siphoned in via variety of betting and other companies' sponsorships (For example, Finnish Tank fleet need always some oil, more in reserve then better) if economic basis of the GSL is still too weak...
We only need some enthusianism from Serral's part, some high ranking FDF Serral fanboi Major General, one hyperrich Saudi-prince, a little bit good will from the Korean Army, and hype-capable StarCraft 2 audience.
Tournaments would be off-line. 
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People acting like korean leagues are worth the prestige now. Foreign tournaments are more prestigious and more competitive because no one plays sc2 in korea anymore. It's only the same korean pros who used to play sc2, milking the hell out of the dying scene in Korea. Wherever Serral participates is the most prestigious and most competitive tournament.
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On February 16 2024 00:42 Shinokuki wrote:
People acting like korean leagues are worth the prestige now. Foreign tournaments are more prestigious and more competitive because no one plays sc2 in korea anymore. It's only the same korean pros who used to play sc2, milking the hell out of the dying scene in Korea. Wherever Serral participates is the most prestigious and most competitive tournament.
You act as if Europe isn't just as stale as Korea
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On February 16 2024 00:15 Mizenhauer wrote:Show nested quote +On February 15 2024 12:23 esReveR wrote:On February 15 2024 09:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
The last four GOAT articles are gonna be fire with all the nonsense going on since Serral won. I mean, it seems like you're intentionally making a questionable list to drive more site traffic through heated discussions. I'd be more surprised if your top 4 made sense, than if they caused more controversy. This actually might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site. You do realize I have an editor right? Even if I was farming you for views (make sure to visit tl.net in public libraries, ideally on as many computers as possible) you really think that would get through my standards and Wax's? Also, The fact that you think I'd stir up shit on an article series with so much gravity is NONSENSE. Keep making posts that add nothing of consequence to the discussion other than make noise for noise's sake
Bit offtopic, but just as good as a moment do to it then any other:
A huge thank you to you for the work you put into your Top 10 and anything surrounding it. Doesn't matter if I agree with the outcome or not, I definetly respect the work. Not agreeing with the outcome or certain positions is totally fine, but the constant thrashing from some people really gets on my nerve. When I did my Walk of Fame it atleast was just counting stuff, got that done in an hour or something like that. So I can't really fathom the work that would go into ten+ of these articles and the thoughts beforehand. But I do now the frustration when people get personal because "their" player isn't on a rank they think he should be - and how it immediately switches from "I disagree" to "you did everything wrong, your list is shit and you are terrible, xxx is the best ever and your list must be in a way to show that!"
Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to say thank you. And that you are a terrible person and did everything wrong in case Serral isn't on top!!!1
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On February 16 2024 00:51 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 00:15 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2024 12:23 esReveR wrote:On February 15 2024 09:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
The last four GOAT articles are gonna be fire with all the nonsense going on since Serral won. I mean, it seems like you're intentionally making a questionable list to drive more site traffic through heated discussions. I'd be more surprised if your top 4 made sense, than if they caused more controversy. This actually might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site. You do realize I have an editor right? Even if I was farming you for views (make sure to visit tl.net in public libraries, ideally on as many computers as possible) you really think that would get through my standards and Wax's? Also, The fact that you think I'd stir up shit on an article series with so much gravity is NONSENSE. Keep making posts that add nothing of consequence to the discussion other than make noise for noise's sake Bit offtopic, but just as good as a moment do to it then any other: A huge thank you to you for the work you put into your Top 10 and anything surrounding it. Doesn't matter if I agree with the outcome or not, I definetly respect the work. Not agreeing with the outcome or certain positions is totally fine, but the constant thrashing from some people really gets on my nerve. When I did my Walk of Fame it atleast was just counting stuff, got that done in an hour or something like that. So I can't really fathom the work that would go into ten+ of these articles and the thoughts beforehand. But I do now the frustration when people get personal because "their" player isn't on a rank they think he should be - and how it immediately switches from "I disagree" to "you did everything wrong, your list is shit and you are terrible, xxx is the best ever and your list must be in a way to show that!" Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to say thank you. And that you are a terrible person and did everything wrong in case Serral isn't on top!!!1
I'm boycotting GSL if Serral isn't on top!!!
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United States1921 Posts
On February 16 2024 00:51 Balnazza wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 00:15 Mizenhauer wrote:On February 15 2024 12:23 esReveR wrote:On February 15 2024 09:27 Mizenhauer wrote:
The last four GOAT articles are gonna be fire with all the nonsense going on since Serral won. I mean, it seems like you're intentionally making a questionable list to drive more site traffic through heated discussions. I'd be more surprised if your top 4 made sense, than if they caused more controversy. This actually might be the dumbest thing I've ever read on this site. You do realize I have an editor right? Even if I was farming you for views (make sure to visit tl.net in public libraries, ideally on as many computers as possible) you really think that would get through my standards and Wax's? Also, The fact that you think I'd stir up shit on an article series with so much gravity is NONSENSE. Keep making posts that add nothing of consequence to the discussion other than make noise for noise's sake Bit offtopic, but just as good as a moment do to it then any other: A huge thank you to you for the work you put into your Top 10 and anything surrounding it. Doesn't matter if I agree with the outcome or not, I definetly respect the work. Not agreeing with the outcome or certain positions is totally fine, but the constant thrashing from some people really gets on my nerve. When I did my Walk of Fame it atleast was just counting stuff, got that done in an hour or something like that. So I can't really fathom the work that would go into ten+ of these articles and the thoughts beforehand. But I do now the frustration when people get personal because "their" player isn't on a rank they think he should be - and how it immediately switches from "I disagree" to "you did everything wrong, your list is shit and you are terrible, xxx is the best ever and your list must be in a way to show that!" Sorry for the rambling, just wanted to say thank you. And that you are a terrible person and did everything wrong in case Serral isn't on top!!!1
That's very kind of you. I've enjoyed reading the posts and the discussion surrounding the articles a great deal, but I'm limited to what I can say/want to say until the series is complete. Once it does, however, I'll be making some blog posts in which I'll be going into greater detail and fielding any questions people have. I'm hoping I'll see a lot of you there and I'm excited to get super nerdy about everything.
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Serral is the Goat now, doesn't matter if he plays in GSL or not
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On February 16 2024 00:50 Durnuu wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 00:42 Shinokuki wrote:
People acting like korean leagues are worth the prestige now. Foreign tournaments are more prestigious and more competitive because no one plays sc2 in korea anymore. It's only the same korean pros who used to play sc2, milking the hell out of the dying scene in Korea. Wherever Serral participates is the most prestigious and most competitive tournament. You act as if Europe isn't just as stale as Korea
There are barelyyyy any viewers in Korea. Heck koreans can't even name who is in top 8 for katowice. If they did a korean only tour in afreeca without "GSL" title, lowkey would get 40 viewers and I'm not even joking.
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On February 16 2024 02:11 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 00:50 Durnuu wrote:On February 16 2024 00:42 Shinokuki wrote:
People acting like korean leagues are worth the prestige now. Foreign tournaments are more prestigious and more competitive because no one plays sc2 in korea anymore. It's only the same korean pros who used to play sc2, milking the hell out of the dying scene in Korea. Wherever Serral participates is the most prestigious and most competitive tournament. You act as if Europe isn't just as stale as Korea There are barelyyyy any viewers in Korea. Heck koreans can't even name who is in top 8 for katowice. If they did a korean only tour in afreeca without "GSL" title, lowkey would get 40 viewers and I'm not even joking.
It's really really sad how low it is. All that production value, even making condensed highlight versions of matches so that people don't need to watch the matches in full... and even those only get a couple hundred views (total, not concurrent). Even with KR being much smaller than all the English speakers in the world, it's still really small.
Like damn, KRs really really aren't into SC2 at all are they. It's pretty wild to me, even small and not that good games could get better viewership I believe... are they just turned off by SC2 because of all the drama in the past?
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On February 16 2024 02:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 02:11 Shinokuki wrote:On February 16 2024 00:50 Durnuu wrote:On February 16 2024 00:42 Shinokuki wrote:
People acting like korean leagues are worth the prestige now. Foreign tournaments are more prestigious and more competitive because no one plays sc2 in korea anymore. It's only the same korean pros who used to play sc2, milking the hell out of the dying scene in Korea. Wherever Serral participates is the most prestigious and most competitive tournament. You act as if Europe isn't just as stale as Korea There are barelyyyy any viewers in Korea. Heck koreans can't even name who is in top 8 for katowice. If they did a korean only tour in afreeca without "GSL" title, lowkey would get 40 viewers and I'm not even joking. It's really really sad how low it is. All that production value, even making condensed highlight versions of matches so that people don't need to watch the matches in full... and even those only get a couple hundred views (total, not concurrent). Even with KR being much smaller than all the English speakers in the world, it's still really small. Like damn, KRs really really aren't into SC2 at all are they. It's pretty wild to me, even small and not that good games could get better viewership I believe... are they just turned off by SC2 because of all the drama in the past?
BW is like a cultural icon to Korea so it's no wonder SC2 can't fully replace it and SC2 kept drifting away from mainstream every year. SC2 looks very different from BW in terms of art and graphics so it never really took off. Good thing about SC2 is that it is WAYYYYY more popular world wide than BW ever was.
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Northern Ireland26605 Posts
On February 16 2024 03:19 Shinokuki wrote:Show nested quote +On February 16 2024 02:54 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On February 16 2024 02:11 Shinokuki wrote:On February 16 2024 00:50 Durnuu wrote:On February 16 2024 00:42 Shinokuki wrote:
People acting like korean leagues are worth the prestige now. Foreign tournaments are more prestigious and more competitive because no one plays sc2 in korea anymore. It's only the same korean pros who used to play sc2, milking the hell out of the dying scene in Korea. Wherever Serral participates is the most prestigious and most competitive tournament. You act as if Europe isn't just as stale as Korea There are barelyyyy any viewers in Korea. Heck koreans can't even name who is in top 8 for katowice. If they did a korean only tour in afreeca without "GSL" title, lowkey would get 40 viewers and I'm not even joking. It's really really sad how low it is. All that production value, even making condensed highlight versions of matches so that people don't need to watch the matches in full... and even those only get a couple hundred views (total, not concurrent). Even with KR being much smaller than all the English speakers in the world, it's still really small. Like damn, KRs really really aren't into SC2 at all are they. It's pretty wild to me, even small and not that good games could get better viewership I believe... are they just turned off by SC2 because of all the drama in the past? BW is like a cultural icon to Korea so it's no wonder SC2 can't fully replace it and SC2 kept drifting away from mainstream every year. SC2 looks very different from BW in terms of art and graphics so it never really took off. Good thing about SC2 is that it is WAYYYYY more popular world wide than BW ever was.
Yeah it’s like trying to introduce ‘Jazz 2.0’ to New Orleans or something
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EPT
