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Mumei
United States257 Posts
On February 18 2024 08:29 WombaT wrote: I meant what I said. Flash was so fucking good at BW be made a Ro4 playing random The issue isn’t pure skill level, it’s competition. What do you mean by competition? That there were more real contenders for winning top tournaments? That the top tier of players had more players within that tier? Or something different? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26604 Posts
On February 18 2024 09:14 Mumei wrote: What do you mean by competition? That there were more real contenders for winning top tournaments? That the top tier of players had more players within that tier? Or something different? Flash is the (bar insanity) BW Goat because he hit levels nobody else did, in a game whose broad structure didn’t change appreciably You can compare say, Boxer to him quite easily. They played the same tournaments, literally no non-Korean was even top 50 in the world. Strareagues and Proleagues were where it’s at. How do you compare Serral’s achievements to peak HoTS? I mean I don’t think you can. I think Serral still might be the GOAT nonetheless, but the scene has shifted so much there’s no really some easy comparable baseline BW basically had the same structure and depth throughout, it’s a lot easier to compare. Were Boxer and Nada and oov GOAT candidate monsters? Sure. Did Flash outdo them in basically every metric point with a similar tourney structure? Yeah. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
The Ultimate, extreme Orange had almost nothing of those benefits most of Apples had in their baskets during the apple-era, and still that Orange managed to bounce in and dominate. Maybe it is so that the basketfull of apples have been slowly rotting and diminishing in their numbers, but it is still counter-intuitive why they cannot contain the process and resist more strongly the domination of The Ultimate Orange and his orange pals. That must count for something too in these apples-to-oranges comparisons. That is also reason why many lovehate'd the Ultimate Orange. | ||
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Mumei
United States257 Posts
On February 18 2024 09:34 WombaT wrote: Flash is the (bar insanity) BW Goat because he hit levels nobody else did, in a game whose broad structure didn’t change appreciably You can compare say, Boxer to him quite easily. They played the same tournaments, literally no non-Korean was even top 50 in the world. Strareagues and Proleagues were where it’s at. How do you compare Serral’s achievements to peak HoTS? I mean I don’t think you can. I think Serral still might be the GOAT nonetheless, but the scene has shifted so much there’s no really some easy comparable baseline BW basically had the same structure and depth throughout, it’s a lot easier to compare. Were Boxer and Nada and oov GOAT candidate monsters? Sure. Did Flash outdo them in basically every metric point with a similar tourney structure? Yeah. I know all that; I'm actually much more familiar with BW circa 2003–2012 than I am with SC2, where I'm basically a total dilettante. But I get the point you are making: because the structure remained consistent throughout its lifetime it's easier to make comparisons of players throughout the history of the game's competitive life. Makes perfect sense, I agree, and I made a related point earlier (in addition to the same tournaments it was also the exact same game). So yeah I get why Flash being the consensus goat there makes sense and is a straightforward and easy question. And I agree that there isn't an easy comparable baseline for Serral's performance today. I still don't know what you mean specifically in the context of SC2 when you say "the scene isn't as strong." You said the question here was "competition" rather than "pure skill", but I still don't know how you are defining that. It feels like you think it is self-evident ("I meant what I said") but it's not to me, or else I wouldn't be asking about it. I'm not doing it be annoying. On February 18 2024 10:04 UnLarva wrote: There are several things that truly make [insert lovehate word here] comparisons like comparing apples to oranges, even I can see through to the problem's nature. However, it also seems to me that when these apples-to-orange comparisons are made anyway, apple-side tend to go blind at the end of apple-era, not seeing or wanting to see that there was and still is an orange that dominated those apple-era lovehate apples of the Appleland. They are same apples of apple-era that are now routinely decimated by that orange, that one who also demonstrated to other oranges from a orange county that it is indeed possible to hang with the apples in a same basket and even lay on a top them most of the time. The Ultimate, extreme Orange had almost nothing of those benefits most of Apples had in their baskets during the apple-era, and still that Orange managed to bounce in and dominate. Maybe it is so that the basketfull of apples have been slowly rotting and diminishing in their numbers, but it is still counter-intuitive why they cannot contain the process and resist more strongly the domination of The Ultimate Orange and his orange pals. That must count for something too in these apples-to-oranges comparisons. That is also reason why many lovehate'd the Ultimate Orange. Superior to both the Ultimate Orange and Apple is the superior Sumo Citrus, the greatest citrus fruit of all time. (GCFOAT) | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
Sumo... hmm... now when you said it, someway analogical to Serral is Mongolian foreigner 69th Yokozuna Hakuho, The Athlete to whom I find least difficulties to assign The GOAT - epithet. I mean, that one who deserves the title most across and over all sports. Of the World. In an era where there must be someone to hold that title, it's Hakuho. For a single Athletic feat, Alex Honnold's free solo of El Capitan of Yosemite... but uh oh now this goes off topic. | ||
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Charoisaur
Germany16062 Posts
On February 18 2024 10:25 Mumei wrote: I know all that; I'm actually much more familiar with BW circa 2003–2012 than I am with SC2, where I'm basically a total dilettante. But I get the point you are making: because the structure remained consistent throughout its lifetime it's easier to make comparisons of players throughout the history of the game's competitive life. Makes perfect sense, I agree, and I made a related point earlier (in addition to the same tournaments it was also the exact same game). So yeah I get why Flash being the consensus goat there makes sense and is a straightforward and easy question. And I agree that there isn't an easy comparable baseline for Serral's performance today. I still don't know what you mean specifically in the context of SC2 when you say "the scene isn't as strong." You said the question here was "competition" rather than "pure skill", but I still don't know how you are defining that. It feels like you think it is self-evident ("I meant what I said") but it's not to me, or else I wouldn't be asking about it. I'm not doing it be annoying. Superior to both the Ultimate Orange and Apple is the superior Sumo Citrus, the greatest citrus fruit of all time. (GCFOAT) I think it's pretty clear. Back in 2012-2016 there were probably a hundred young, motivated korean progamers practicing 10 hours a day in teamhouses with coaches analyzing their play and helping them. Now there are maybe 20 fulltime korean players practicing from home (foreign scene is more healthy but only very few S tier foreigners have emerged and most are cannon-fodder). This means that back then if a top player had a bad day in the ro32 they got eliminated right then and there, whereas nowadays a top player even on a bad day probably still makes the ro8. This makes imo tournament wins back then just objectively more impressive because you had to compete with far more top players | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26604 Posts
On February 18 2024 10:25 Mumei wrote: I know all that; I'm actually much more familiar with BW circa 2003–2012 than I am with SC2, where I'm basically a total dilettante. But I get the point you are making: because the structure remained consistent throughout its lifetime it's easier to make comparisons of players throughout the history of the game's competitive life. Makes perfect sense, I agree, and I made a related point earlier (in addition to the same tournaments it was also the exact same game). So yeah I get why Flash being the consensus goat there makes sense and is a straightforward and easy question. And I agree that there isn't an easy comparable baseline for Serral's performance today. I still don't know what you mean specifically in the context of SC2 when you say "the scene isn't as strong." You said the question here was "competition" rather than "pure skill", but I still don't know how you are defining that. It feels like you think it is self-evident ("I meant what I said") but it's not to me, or else I wouldn't be asking about it. I'm not doing it be annoying. Superior to both the Ultimate Orange and Apple is the superior Sumo Citrus, the greatest citrus fruit of all time. (GCFOAT) Char summed it up pretty well. For me I don’t really count it against Serral as some might, it is just a case of genuinely struggling to make a comparison. I do think, unlike some that peak Serral and a few other folks have played even better Starcraft than we’d ever seen before. The peak is higher, the depth overall and especially at the ‘S/A’ tier has dropped from Korean retirements/slumps. The foreign scene is definitely stronger, would be my read on it Most sports the level rises over time, as I think in SC2 it has as well. Football is way faster than it used to be, with many tactical developments. But the competition level is roughly the same, it was the world’s number 1 sport with a big global participation, same as now. Golf has came on a ton with development of technique and equipment, but it’s remained relatively static in terms of its relative popularity, the Majors are still the same majors. There’s other factors that have changed in those few (in football the bigger clubs are more monied and relatively stacked) but I shan’t overcomplicate it While I still feel it’s kinda not possible to compare folks across half a century, you can at least weigh their achievements relatively similarly. Pele versus Messi, you can’t really compare their club careers as that’s changed massively, but you can at least look at their World Cup legacy as that’s been the biggest, if not necessarily best prize forever. Or I can compare Tiger Woods to Nicklaus in the Majors. But let’s say football fell off a cliff in popularity and dropped from the world’s number 1 slot, to the 10th. Then we approach apples and orange territory, where one GOAT is playing a sport where way fewer top talents choose it, and there’s that little bit less pressure from the scrutiny you would get as the biggest show in town. Even more variables get added. Boxing, at least heavyweight boxing is about the only top level sport where the actual skill level has seemingly gone down that I can think of. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On February 18 2024 00:53 Mizenhauer wrote: Putting MMA and TaeJa above him is equally ludicrous, but good effort! I wouldn't say Maru is over Dream but i don't think it's ludicrous at all to say that Taeja and MMA are above Maru by end of HotS. MMA is only a maybe, but there are reasonable cases you could argue for. Taeja most people would agree was above Maru, if you asked them in HotS (Taeja getting #3 on TL's last GOAT list vs Maru at #13, and higher than Maru was MKP #11, MMA #6, Polt #5. And if we're going by the GOAT HotS list at HotS's end, Maru rose to #6 but Taeja still got #2 right under Life). | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26604 Posts
On February 18 2024 22:46 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: I wouldn't say Maru is over Dream but i don't think it's ludicrous at all to say that Taeja and MMA are above Maru by end of HotS. MMA is only a maybe, but there is a reasonable case for it. Taeja most people would agree was above Maru, if you asked them at the end of HotS (Taeja getting 3rd on TL's last GOAT list vs Maru at #13. Even MKP got above Maru at #11). Aye it’s difficult, if not close to impossible to cast one’s mind back to the scene up to then, without letting everything that happened afterwards bleed in. There was a fractured scene, a lot of structural flux. And guys like Taeja and MMA were still pretty competitive if we draw the line here. At Blizzcons and the likes, plus elsewhere. It’s only afterwards where the Kespa influx really fully dominated, and despite his origins I’d still sort of consider Maru a Kespa player really. At this stage Taeja has a bunch of tournament wins, 2 Ro4s in Code S, a Ro4 in Blizzcon where he took Life to the limit in a classic series (and whoever won that series probably wins the final), as well as the miracle run at IPLTAC, IMO one of the greatest weekend feats we’ve seen to this day. Maru has a Starleague, and a bunch of pretty consistently good results towards the end of HoTS, and an exceptional Proleague record. He doesn’t even really play in those international weekenders. Some folks definitely under/overvalue Proleague IMO, it fluctuates pretty wildly but Maru’s still got an impressive body of work nonetheless. I still feel it’s hard to put Maru above Taeja if we’re drawing this particular line in the sand. But I’d certainly put him above an MKP who’d already dropped off by this point. MKP had already sort of shown he was a pretty one-dimensional player by here, and what’s worse other people were doing that dimension better. | ||
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FFXthebest
75 Posts
On February 18 2024 00:53 Mizenhauer wrote: Dream ahead Maru of is one of the funniest thing I've ever seen. Dream has a losing record in two of the three matchups when it comes to Code S (he does has very good TvP on a small sample size, but he has a losing record overall). He won zero Korean lans during his career and never won a Premier Event all while being worse in Proleague in Maru. Putting MMA and TaeJa above him is equally ludicrous, but good effort! PS in case you're wondering, here are Dream's career Code S stats. ![[image loading]](/staff/Mizenhauer/dream.jpg) 34-41 overall and 4-12 vs Terran......................... Ya.. nope but nice try During HoTS there was no argument Maru was better than Taeja. Taeja had better code S results, better blizzcon and more championship. Mama had already a better career than Maru At the same time some could even argue Polt captain America was better as well. Also personally, i don’t value the pro league (a proven match fixing league) as much as others. | ||
Durnuu
13322 Posts
On February 19 2024 00:14 FFXthebest wrote: Ya.. nope but nice try During HoTS there was no argument Maru was better than Taeja. Taeja had better code S results, better blizzcon and more championship. Mama had already a better career than Maru At the same time some could even argue Polt captain America was better as well. In what world did you live where TaeJa had good code S results? | ||
Mizenhauer
United States1921 Posts
On February 18 2024 23:05 WombaT wrote: Aye it’s difficult, if not close to impossible to cast one’s mind back to the scene up to then, without letting everything that happened afterwards bleed in. There was a fractured scene, a lot of structural flux. And guys like Taeja and MMA were still pretty competitive if we draw the line here. At Blizzcons and the likes, plus elsewhere. It’s only afterwards where the Kespa influx really fully dominated, and despite his origins I’d still sort of consider Maru a Kespa player really. At this stage Taeja has a bunch of tournament wins, 2 Ro4s in Code S, a Ro4 in Blizzcon where he took Life to the limit in a classic series (and whoever won that series probably wins the final), as well as the miracle run at IPLTAC, IMO one of the greatest weekend feats we’ve seen to this day. Maru has a Starleague, and a bunch of pretty consistently good results towards the end of HoTS, and an exceptional Proleague record. He doesn’t even really play in those international weekenders. Some folks definitely under/overvalue Proleague IMO, it fluctuates pretty wildly but Maru’s still got an impressive body of work nonetheless. I still feel it’s hard to put Maru above Taeja if we’re drawing this particular line in the sand. But I’d certainly put him above an MKP who’d already dropped off by this point. MKP had already sort of shown he was a pretty one-dimensional player by here, and what’s worse other people were doing that dimension better. You forgot either OSL or SSL. The fact that Maru won two of those despite Terran being absolute dogshit for the first 2/3rds of the year. Maru also made the semifinals of a KIL three times in Hots so he's ahead of TaeJa there. In 2014, three Terrans qualified for Code S Season 1. Supernova went 0-2, Bbyong lost in the Round of 16, but Maru made the r8 and lost to life. Season 2 was equally bad for Terrans. Maru, Bbyong and supernova made it back, but this time Inno was in as well. Supernova won a game this time, but he and Bbyong went out in the r32. Innovation advanced after getting second in his r32 group, but lost in the r16. Maru, meanwhile, made it all the way to the semifinals and finished the event with the second best win% of anyone that season, ahead of both finalists (Classic and soO). As for the Proleague stuff, Maru was paid to play in Proleague. That was his primary focus because that's how Korean sc2 was. If you undervalue it, you also underestimate the power of money as motivation. The max contract during the KeSPA years was a little under 40k usd per year. Players were extremely motivated to raise their stature so they could get the best possible salary because you can't sustain yourself on tournament cashes alone. You can be sure Maru gave it his all every time he played for Jin Air. As for how Maru did representing Jin Air? He had the second best win percentage of any player on high volume (inno is ahead) while in the event (maru won 67% of his games, inno won 68%). These numbers include 2016 because I'm lazy and don't want to do math, but Maru was right up there with ace players like herO, INnoVation, Zest, Flash, Classic and sOs when you cut out 2016. TaeJa was an incredible player, but his results don't scale as well as I'd like. He never won an event in 2015 or 16 so we're basically looking at a period where half of his wins came in homestory cups and the other half came in dreamhacks. I think the two weren't all that different in skill at the time (TaeJa walloped soO at BlizzCon 2014(, but Maru's accumulated achievements from that stretch exceeds that of TaeJa by a decent amount. | ||
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Mizenhauer
United States1921 Posts
On February 19 2024 00:15 Durnuu wrote: In what world did you live where TaeJa had good code S results? The thing that was always held against TaeJa was that he didn't play in Code S enough and never won it. My mind gets blown reading this stuff sometimes. On February 19 2024 00:14 FFXthebest wrote: Ya.. nope but nice try During HoTS there was no argument Maru was better than Taeja. Taeja had better blizzcon. Regarding World Championships, TaeJa's best result came in 2014 when he made the r4. Maru's best finish? He made the round of 4 the prior year. Revisionist history is hilarious. The only metric in which TaeJa outperformed Maru was in weekenders. Everything else either goes Maru's way or it's a wash. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26604 Posts
On February 19 2024 00:27 Mizenhauer wrote: You forgot either OSL or SSL. The fact that Maru won two of those despite Terran being absolute dogshit for the first 2/3rds of the year. Maru also made the semifinals of a KIL three times in Hots so he's ahead of TaeJa there. In 2014, three Terrans qualified for Code S Season 1. Supernova went 0-2, Bbyong lost in the Round of 16, but Maru made the r8 and lost to life. Season 2 was equally bad for Terrans. Maru, Bbyong and supernova made it back, but this time Inno was in as well. Supernova won a game this time, but he and Bbyong went out in the r32. Innovation advanced after getting second in his r32 group, but lost in the r16. Maru, meanwhile, made it all the way to the semifinals and finished the event with the second best win% of anyone that season, ahead of both finalists (Classic and soO). As for the Proleague stuff, Maru was paid to play in Proleague. That was his primary focus because that's how Korean sc2 was. If you undervalue it, you also underestimate the power of money as motivation. The max contract during the KeSPA years was a little under 40k usd per year. Players were extremely motivated to raise their stature so they could get the best possible salary because you can't sustain yourself on tournament cashes alone. You can be sure Maru gave it his all every time he played for Jin Air. As for how Maru did representing Jin Air? He had the second best win percentage of any player on high volume (inno is ahead) while in the event (maru won 67% of his games, inno won 68%). These numbers include 2016 because I'm lazy and don't want to do math, but Maru was right up there with ace players like herO, INnoVation, Zest, Flash, Classic and sOs when you cut out 2016. TaeJa was an incredible player, but his results don't scale as well as I'd like. He never won an event in 2015 or 16 so we're basically looking at a period where half of his wins came in homestory cups and the other half came in dreamhacks. I think the two weren't all that different in skill at the time (TaeJa walloped soO at BlizzCon 2014(, but Maru's accumulated achievements from that stretch exceeds that of TaeJa by a decent amount. Aye I thought I’d mentioned he’d won a Starleague, albeit still undercounting by 1, pays to refresh one’s memory sometimes! You are correct on much there IMO, equally weekenders have kind of long been the lifeblood of much of the scene, and something of a constant at least. But didn’t always have the most prestige fields either. Guess that’s just the rub of it when you have quite a fragmented scene with different priorities. | ||
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UnLarva
458 Posts
Comparisons between players and tournaments would be much more easier to do, and much more objective because of that. Of course ELOs between different eras are not directly compatible, but player placements within lists are, regardless of a list, as well as relative ELO difference within each list. Also, Factoring economic incentive in as measurement of competition would be much easier to do. What ever, it is impossible factor in, ennumerate, or model all things relevant to something like 'prestige'. | ||
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Fighter
Korea (South)1531 Posts
MVP? He may have been the King of Wings, but that was a short period of time at this point, and the level of play dramatically increased over the years. Out of the Hots kings, could you suggest Life? Taeja? MC? Polt? Innovation? Zest? None of them have claims nearly as strong as Serral at this point. In the LoV era you've got a handful of greats, but the strongest contender is widely considered to be Maru, and Serral just put a definitive stamp on that particular question. I just can't see anyone else with a better claim to the title. | ||
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Yoshi Kirishima
United States10366 Posts
On February 19 2024 00:30 Mizenhauer wrote: Regarding World Championships, TaeJa's best result came in 2014 when he made the r4. Maru's best finish? He made the round of 4 the prior year. Revisionist history is hilarious. The only metric in which TaeJa outperformed Maru was in weekenders. Everything else either goes Maru's way or it's a wash. I feel the way you say that it's "the only metric" sounds a bit unfair, as if that one metric wasn't also the strongest part of Taeja's resume, one where he dominated compared to Maru. And in regards to saying "everything else" goes to Maru, there aren't that many metrics to begin with. I still stand that it's not ludicrous to think that Taeja > Maru at the end of HotS, as that was the majority opinion at the time. I would say that it might be arguably "revisionist history" to try to claim that it's a ludicrous opinion to have, as it was the popular opinion at the time. On February 18 2024 23:05 WombaT wrote: At this stage Taeja has a bunch of tournament wins, 2 Ro4s in Code S, a Ro4 in Blizzcon where he took Life to the limit in a classic series (and whoever won that series probably wins the final), as well as the miracle run at IPLTAC, IMO one of the greatest weekend feats we’ve seen to this day. Yeah i didn't remember Taeja dominating that IPLTAC and pulling that insane feat off, until you wrote about it in another recent post in one of these threads. I think you had a good point about how it's possible today we've kind of forgotten how important and serious team leagues were, and how it was a significant metric players considered back then. When people talk about Top 15 Goats and talk about Taeja for example, it's often "looking back, I don't think those weekend tournies were that important", and don't talk about team league performance. This goes for any player ofc, not just Taeja. | ||
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RPR_Tempest
Australia7798 Posts
Maru was acknowledged as a tremendous player, but at the time TaeJa was definitely the more popular/one considered better. I don't think anyone would argue that Maru was a better player in Korea, but they had different specialties, and TaeJa happened to be much, much better at his particular specialty than Maru was at his. On February 19 2024 07:55 Yoshi Kirishima wrote: Yeah i didn't remember Taeja dominating that IPLTAC and pulling that insane feat off, until you wrote about it in another recent post in one of these threads. I think you had a good point about how it's possible today we've kind of forgotten how important and serious team leagues were, and how it was a significant metric players considered back then. GSTL and Proleague, yeah, definitely. Nobody genuinely gave a hot shit about IPLTAC though. It was just a bit of fun entertainment. For a lot of weaker NA teams it was probably something they committed 100% of themselves to, but for actual proper eSports teams it was just a side hustle. Online vs offline team league, there's no comparison. | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland26604 Posts
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Fango
United Kingdom8987 Posts
On February 19 2024 10:03 RPR_Tempest wrote: Yeah TaeJa was definitely considered above Maru in HotS. People were considering TaeJa to be the greatest international tournament player ever. People scoffed at how high he was on that initial TL list, but it's not like he was way off. Maru was acknowledged as a tremendous player, but at the time TaeJa was definitely the more popular/one considered better. I don't think anyone would argue that Maru was a better player in Korea, but they had different specialties, and TaeJa happened to be much, much better at his particular specialty than Maru was at his. Taeja was more popular because he played in international events. Maru almost never did, he would make like 1 international appearance a year. The bias was huge, if you ever went back and watched the Maru vs Life IEM finals, the casters genuinely speak about Maru as if he's some new kid just breaking out, despite him being the best terran in Korea for the last 2 years. Maru's HotS results were astounding. He outperformed his own race more than any other player ever did. He was the best performing Starleague player and back then you'd have 100 full-time and sponsored pros enter each season. He also ended up being the best Proleague player. Taeja was, in retrospect, overrated. At least if we're being HotS specific. Most of his wins were Dreamhacks and a couple Homestory Cups, nothing close to Starleagues. He never played in Proleague, didn't do much for the entire year of 2015 (and 2016), and he would bomb in the GSLs that he competed in. He was a tremendous player in international events, but everyone remembers his highlight games against INno or Zest, while ignoring that they performed several times better, for longer, in the more cutthroat region. Taeja's speciality was smaller weekend events, but those really weren't the priority for anyone playing in Kespa. It was Proleague first, and then individual leagues. International fans never seemed to grasp that. It's not like Taeja was winning the World Championship events either like sOs did, he was mostly a menace in B tier tournaments. | ||
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