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We understand that this topic evokes strong feelings. In the interest of maintaining a necessary and productive discussion, we will be taking a strong stance against posters that clearly do not contribute to this aim. Dishonest and bad faith arguments, victim blaming, and attacks on other users, will be strictly moderated. A post which only serves to muddy the waters and dishonestly portray the nature of assault and harassment (and corresponding accusations) is also unwelcome. |
For those lurking at home who would like a quick summary of the last few pages, this new post-Melanie conversation that mcgormack is engaging in is a great example of the term "gaslighting":
"Gaslighting is a form of psychological manipulation in which a person or a group covertly sows seeds of doubt in a targeted individual or group, making them question their own memory, perception, or judgment, often evoking in them cognitive dissonance and other changes including low self-esteem. Using denial, misdirection, contradiction, and misinformation, gaslighting involves attempts to destabilize the victim and delegitimize the victim's beliefs. Instances can range from the denial by an abuser that previous abusive incidents occurred, to the staging of bizarre events by the abuser with the intention of disorienting the victim." ~ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gaslighting
After multiple people have already stepped forward and given similar, corroborating stories about receiving dick pics, feeling abused, and being harassed by Rapid (Reid), an additional person named Melanie came forward and publicly wrote this: http://www.twitlonger.com/show/n_1sr9qgu
It includes the following statements:
-"Reid and i have had an emotionally abusive relationship for years."
-"Reid groomed me. For those needing a definition ‘Sexual grooming’ is the process of deliberately establishing a connection in order to prepare a person for sexual exploitation and/or abuse."
-"He sent me an unsolicited dick pic soon after (this was within a week of talking and dming)."
-"I felt ashamed but I hid it well."
-"Telling him i’m hurt meant being apologized to in the moment, and objectified the next morning."
-"He exploited my feelings for him."
-"I questioned my morals, sacrificed my own self worth, my sanity, and my pride to do whatever would make him happy. But please try to understand that this entire situation with him has always just been confusing, which stems from having been groomed." [this is Melanie also realizing that she's been gaslit by Rapid]
-"I know he’s caused hurt to others, and to me."
And mcgormack has been responding with dismissals and excuses like these:
"In this one, the events are fairly vague, and bottomline, we're talking about a long-lasting relationship between two consenting adults that was perceived as toxic and psychologically abusive by one person, but nothing illegal and no harassment. I honestly don't think that this deserves to be public."
(Note the facts that Melanie did not actually consent to everything she recounted and she did explicitly state she felt abused, exploited, and groomed.)
"This one isn't too clear. They had been talking for a week, and there was consent and sex in their relationship."
(Having conversations with someone for seven days does not automatically grant you the right to send them dick pics, and having sex in a relationship does not mean that you cannot be abused or exploited by that sex partner before, during, or after sex.)
"If someone sends a dick pic and you go along with it and reply ''hot'', it's not sexual harassment."
(There is no evidence that Melanie replied with this; it's a strawman. And even if she did, that doesn't make the rest of her abusive relationship acceptable. We don't know if Melanie said anything in response to the dick pic, but what Melanie did explain - repeatedly - is that she was abused and groomed and exploited.)
"In this case, she went along with it, and engaged in a relationship with the guy. There is no harassment, period."
(This is classic victim blaming, and also falsely asserts that you can't be harassed by someone who you ultimately enter into a relationship with.)
"What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once?"
(Obvious strawmen, which are not remotely comparable to Melanie's relationship with Rapid.)
"Yes, you can do a million things that are illegal to your wife. Here, nothing illegal. only things that are claimed to be immoral, and no specifics. Are we gonna publicly judge everyone who did ''wrong'' things to their spouse now?"
(Putting aside the obviously insane legal issues that should also be addressed, notice the explicit gaslighting of ethics here: mcgormack's rewriting of reality has become more extreme, to the point where he's making it sound crazy to publicly judge people who have done "wrong things" to their spouses. Under any other circumstances, of course we would take seriously any abuse or harassment allegations towards significant others, and yet mcgormack is trying to set a stage in which entering into a relationship means - by definition - that any claim of being a victim of "wrongdoing" is off the table. He argues that believing Melanie will cause us to wind up committing a slippery slope fallacy, as if to say something like "what's next, judging abusive spouses!?")
"With the (few) facts that we know of, there is no tribunal in the US that would condemn Rapid for harassment against this girl."
(A tribunal is a court of law, and mcgormack is essentially replacing "believing Melanie's story" with "it wouldn't hold up in the legal system as a criminal charge". He's insisting for an unreasonably high burden of proof, when in reality the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not we are willing to listen to victims and whether or not we should excommunicate Rapid and other abusers, rather than attempt to formally press charges.)
"This is where I draw the line, it doesn't deserve to be public."
And with people like you, mcgormack, it's unsurprising why so many victims don't feel comfortable telling their stories. Thankfully, a number of other posters have been responding to your nonsense with common sense. While you clearly don't believe Melanie, it would be great if you listened to at least one thing she wrote, in the very first paragraph of her story: "Believe victims, assholes."
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On June 27 2020 05:25 Simberto wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:16 NewSunshine wrote:
I think it's pretty gross that this debate is even had at all. The argument that dick pics should be ok because the law says so, ignoring whether that's even true, is gross on two fronts. First is the "legality is morality" angle, which I find morally inhibitive, but then there's the "these are the rules that make this personal interaction always ok" shit. Just talk to people. Respect them. And if you're worried about offending someone, maybe just don't do the thing. Don't look for the technicality. Nobody likes that guy.
Also for whatever it's worth, I think dick pics are gross. Nobody I know likes them, and nobody that any of them knows likes them. I cannot see any reason why this is a hill worth dying on. I agree with both of your main points here. I hate both the "it is legal thus it is moral" argument and the "loophole-seeking" aspect that somehow often gets involved in these discussions about sexual harassment. Ethics should guide laws, not the other way around. And people really need to stop trying to find the minimum loophole to barely legally not be a sexual harasser, and instead look for enthusiastic consent in their partners. If they are not into it, don't do it. (Whatever "it" is) If you have to keep prodding them to get consent, don't do it. And if at any point during your doing of it it becomes even slightly unclear if they are still okay with it, stop and make sure. However, i think a small group of people who like dick pics do surely exists. I don't think a single sex-related act you can imagine exists that no one would like. Enthusiastic consent is always king, though.
Absolutely, I'm somewhat capable of understanding when something just isn't my thing. But when maybe a few people like something, that should also be understood, because that is what makes the consent so important. We should not be pushing for the right to do something like this at any time, since that implies most people will like it. That is not my impression of the dick pic at all, in any case. In my experience and observation, the act of sending a dick pic is usually more for the guy doing it than for the person receiving it.
Still, different strokes for different folks and what not. Just remember folks, it is actually easier to ask permission than forgiveness.
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On June 27 2020 06:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:27 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:25 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:02 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
Why not. Nothing illegal in that story, and a normal person doesn't get fired for having an unhealthy intimate relationship. We get it, he's acted creepy many times with strangers, now he's rightfully off the Starcraft scene. His name in Google might be associated with these stories for years, which is worse punishment than a normal person would get for talking about his dick to strangers. And now we need to condemn him for his being an asshole in his private love life too? That's enough with the public trial, man. What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once? I mean people 2 days were complaining that 4 people with screenshots was not proof enough of the not unsolicited dick pic. Now that number is 5. This is not unfair to Rapid, in the court of public opinion or law because they often bring evidence of situations that do not rise to the level of criminality to show the pattern of behavior that did. The only way this would be inappropriate is if the Girl didn't want it discussed, but that is not the case. The whole "doth protest too much" comes to mind, because as time goes further the original arguments seem to be forgotten. If she was the first one to come forward you might have a point, she is the at least 5th, to further show the pattern it is completely relevant and helpful to anyone not completely biased. And to be completely honest I wish people were taking this as serious as they would Map hacking, because this is a much bigger problem. Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.) His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all. You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying. I think people have, at least by now, completely understood you and the answer is "no." I think the popular answer is much closer to yes. See the same topic on r/starcraft. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/hga77m/another_accusation_against_rapid/ You're new here so I kind of understand the ignorance. But being different than Reddit is more of a badge of honor than something that will convince us. TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit and that is a good thing. If you plan on sticking around consider that a lot of stuff on reddit is not something to be proud of. edit: DPB thanks for the effort! well summerized really above and beyond.
Been on TL since 2006 on another account. Every single other MeToo story has deservedly received massive support and upvotes on r/starcraft, just like here. It's fair to assume that the reactions on r/starcraft are representative of the community in general.
But keep thinking that everyone here agrees with you because they're more vocal, and everyone elsewhere is an idiot.
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On June 27 2020 06:38 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:33 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:27 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:25 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:02 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
Why not. Nothing illegal in that story, and a normal person doesn't get fired for having an unhealthy intimate relationship. We get it, he's acted creepy many times with strangers, now he's rightfully off the Starcraft scene. His name in Google might be associated with these stories for years, which is worse punishment than a normal person would get for talking about his dick to strangers. And now we need to condemn him for his being an asshole in his private love life too? That's enough with the public trial, man. What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once? I mean people 2 days were complaining that 4 people with screenshots was not proof enough of the not unsolicited dick pic. Now that number is 5. This is not unfair to Rapid, in the court of public opinion or law because they often bring evidence of situations that do not rise to the level of criminality to show the pattern of behavior that did. The only way this would be inappropriate is if the Girl didn't want it discussed, but that is not the case. The whole "doth protest too much" comes to mind, because as time goes further the original arguments seem to be forgotten. If she was the first one to come forward you might have a point, she is the at least 5th, to further show the pattern it is completely relevant and helpful to anyone not completely biased. And to be completely honest I wish people were taking this as serious as they would Map hacking, because this is a much bigger problem. Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.) His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all. You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying. I think people have, at least by now, completely understood you and the answer is "no." I think the popular answer is much closer to yes. See the same topic on r/starcraft. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/hga77m/another_accusation_against_rapid/ You're new here so I kind of understand the ignorance. But being different than Reddit is more of a badge of honor than something that will convince us. TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit and that is a good thing. If you plan on sticking around consider that a lot of stuff on reddit is not something to be proud of. edit: DPB thanks for the effort! well summerized really above and beyond. Been on TL since 2006 on another account. Every single other MeToo story has deservedly received massive support and upvotes on r/starcraft, just like here. It's fair to assume that the reactions on r/starcraft are representative of the community in general. But keep thinking that everyone here agrees with you because they're more vocal, and everyone elsewhere is an idiot.
I don't think anyone called you an idiot. They did point out why you were wrong, though.
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On June 27 2020 06:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"With the (few) facts that we know of, there is no tribunal in the US that would condemn Rapid for harassment against this girl."
(A tribunal is a court of law, and mcgormack is essentially replacing "believing Melanie's story" with "it wouldn't hold up in the legal system as a criminal charge". He's insisting for an unreasonably high burden of proof, when in reality the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not we are willing to listen to victims and whether or not we should excommunicate Rapid and other abusers, rather than attempt to formally press charges.)
The question is about what should and shouldn't be brought up on a public forum.
We all have to draw the line somewhere. I draw the line where our justice system does.
If Rapid did things that are against the law (and according to all the testimonies, he did), those stories are relevant.
But any story that brings up Rapid being an asshole is maybe too much now. We have enough evidence, judgement passed, session closed.
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On June 27 2020 06:44 NewSunshine wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:38 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:33 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:27 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:25 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:02 mcgormack wrote:
[quote]
Nothing illegal in that story, and a normal person doesn't get fired for having an unhealthy intimate relationship.
We get it, he's acted creepy many times with strangers, now he's rightfully off the Starcraft scene. His name in Google might be associated with these stories for years, which is worse punishment than a normal person would get for talking about his dick to strangers.
And now we need to condemn him for his being an asshole in his private love life too?
That's enough with the public trial, man.
What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once? I mean people 2 days were complaining that 4 people with screenshots was not proof enough of the not unsolicited dick pic. Now that number is 5. This is not unfair to Rapid, in the court of public opinion or law because they often bring evidence of situations that do not rise to the level of criminality to show the pattern of behavior that did. The only way this would be inappropriate is if the Girl didn't want it discussed, but that is not the case. The whole "doth protest too much" comes to mind, because as time goes further the original arguments seem to be forgotten. If she was the first one to come forward you might have a point, she is the at least 5th, to further show the pattern it is completely relevant and helpful to anyone not completely biased. And to be completely honest I wish people were taking this as serious as they would Map hacking, because this is a much bigger problem. Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.) His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all. You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying. I think people have, at least by now, completely understood you and the answer is "no." I think the popular answer is much closer to yes. See the same topic on r/starcraft. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/hga77m/another_accusation_against_rapid/ You're new here so I kind of understand the ignorance. But being different than Reddit is more of a badge of honor than something that will convince us. TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit and that is a good thing. If you plan on sticking around consider that a lot of stuff on reddit is not something to be proud of. edit: DPB thanks for the effort! well summerized really above and beyond. Been on TL since 2006 on another account. Every single other MeToo story has deservedly received massive support and upvotes on r/starcraft, just like here. It's fair to assume that the reactions on r/starcraft are representative of the community in general. But keep thinking that everyone here agrees with you because they're more vocal, and everyone elsewhere is an idiot. I don't think anyone called you an idiot. They did point out why you were wrong, though.
TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit..
I think that people on r/starcraft, while younger in general, are just as smart as the people here.
On June 27 2020 06:48 JimmiC wrote:
What is the other account. And why are you not using it?
I stopped going on the site for years, lost the password and didn't care too much about the old account.
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On June 27 2020 05:36 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 05:30 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 05:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 05:03 Nebuchad wrote:On June 27 2020 04:52 Silvanel wrote:On June 27 2020 04:45 Nebuchad wrote:
Guys asking for rulebooks because who would ever talk to their gf and find out what she is and isn't okay with 😐 The problem here is, that your partner might be fine with this today, but years later You have a fall out and this is used against You. Not saying that this is a case here, but this is something that happenes everday even outside SC. There is nothing as toxic as bad divorce, i mean the shit people do just to hurt each other.... She might even lie and say that you sent her an unsollicited dick pic years ago when you hadn't :/ It's a dangerous world out there Please keep in mind that Melanie received the dick pic within one week of first talking with Rapid, not within a year and not changing her mind about anything: "He sent me an unsolicited dick pic soon after (this was within a week of talking and dming)." I think Neb was just trying another tact of sarcastically pointing out that you can protect yourself from these lying females some people seem to be afraid by simply not sending a dick pic. Gotcha. I didn't pick up on the sarcasm.
My mistake sry
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Northern Ireland23410 Posts
On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:02 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
Why not. Nothing illegal in that story, and a normal person doesn't get fired for having an unhealthy intimate relationship. We get it, he's acted creepy many times with strangers, now he's rightfully off the Starcraft scene. His name in Google might be associated with these stories for years, which is worse punishment than a normal person would get for talking about his dick to strangers. And now we need to condemn him for his being an asshole in his private love life too? That's enough with the public trial, man. What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once? I mean people 2 days were complaining that 4 people with screenshots was not proof enough of the not unsolicited dick pic. Now that number is 5. This is not unfair to Rapid, in the court of public opinion or law because they often bring evidence of situations that do not rise to the level of criminality to show the pattern of behavior that did. The only way this would be inappropriate is if the Girl didn't want it discussed, but that is not the case. The whole "doth protest too much" comes to mind, because as time goes further the original arguments seem to be forgotten. If she was the first one to come forward you might have a point, she is the at least 5th, to further show the pattern it is completely relevant and helpful to anyone not completely biased. And to be completely honest I wish people were taking this as serious as they would Map hacking, because this is a much bigger problem. Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.) His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all. You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying.
It’s absolutely pertinent to his continued presence in the scene if he indulges in questionable behaviour in his private life. Assuming it is true of course.
He works in a still nascent scene that a lot of naive young people want to break into, if he’s sending dick pics around and engaging in behaviour that treads into emotional abuse or grooming then absolutely that is relevant. Especially when networking to get a leg up is rampant in the industry, do you want a guy with that track record exerting that leverage?
I don’t actually recall anyone in here calling for Rapid’s head and wanting his life ruined. The general tenor has been if these accusations are true then our scene doesn’t welcome him, but that if he takes it as a learning experience and reflects on his own behaviour there’s plenty else he could be doing.
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Northern Ireland23410 Posts
On June 27 2020 06:49 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:44 NewSunshine wrote:On June 27 2020 06:38 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:33 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:27 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:25 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:10 JimmiC wrote:
[quote]
I mean people 2 days were complaining that 4 people with screenshots was not proof enough of the not unsolicited dick pic. Now that number is 5. This is not unfair to Rapid, in the court of public opinion or law because they often bring evidence of situations that do not rise to the level of criminality to show the pattern of behavior that did. The only way this would be inappropriate is if the Girl didn't want it discussed, but that is not the case.
The whole "doth protest too much" comes to mind, because as time goes further the original arguments seem to be forgotten.
If she was the first one to come forward you might have a point, she is the at least 5th, to further show the pattern it is completely relevant and helpful to anyone not completely biased.
And to be completely honest I wish people were taking this as serious as they would Map hacking, because this is a much bigger problem.
Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.) His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all. You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying. I think people have, at least by now, completely understood you and the answer is "no." I think the popular answer is much closer to yes. See the same topic on r/starcraft. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/hga77m/another_accusation_against_rapid/ You're new here so I kind of understand the ignorance. But being different than Reddit is more of a badge of honor than something that will convince us. TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit and that is a good thing. If you plan on sticking around consider that a lot of stuff on reddit is not something to be proud of. edit: DPB thanks for the effort! well summerized really above and beyond. Been on TL since 2006 on another account. Every single other MeToo story has deservedly received massive support and upvotes on r/starcraft, just like here. It's fair to assume that the reactions on r/starcraft are representative of the community in general. But keep thinking that everyone here agrees with you because they're more vocal, and everyone elsewhere is an idiot. I don't think anyone called you an idiot. They did point out why you were wrong, though. I think that people on r/starcraft, while younger in general, are just as smart as the people here. Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:48 JimmiC wrote:
What is the other account. And why are you not using it? I stopped going on the site for years, lost the password and didn't care too much about the old account.
Just as smart arguably sure. Youth and lack of wisdom earned over time (plus consuming vastly different media) do play parts. Go back ten years and myself and others in this thread probably posted idiotic stuff all the time.
Younger men are much more concerned about cancel culture and false accusations because media, especially Youtubers really overblow this, so young men tend to worry about it happening to them.
To take just one phenomenon, one I think you see reflected in r/Starcraft’s takes vs here
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hey guys. I don't post much here, but felt obligated to say something since this has become a serious topic.
I was a #freeRapid until today. I was ignorant, and needed to catch up. I encourage those who (like me) defend Rapid to read through the statements of the victims. The one that particularly struck me was from Melanie on TwitLonger. She talks about the abuse, the day she met Rapid, the day she last spoke to Rapid, the "heads up on scandal", and hesitancy to even come out. She's not from the BW scene and it took immense courage for her to expose her insecurities to help other victims. Critical note, she even posted mental health links and time to speak to any victims sharing her pain.
It's similar to how I feel about Bill Cosby (Fyi: He was once Father of America as a Black man). 30+ women speak up. What's their motive? What % are telling the truth. All it takes is one truth. One rape, you are a rapist.
In this case, Rapid has used his image (whatever you want to call it) to prey on young females who might be naiive, might be inexperienced, might be vulnerable... doesn't matter. These girls were sexually exploited. I'm fine with dick pics. I'm fine with pervy content. I am Jiraiya after all. However, exploiting minors and mentally/sexually abusing women is wrong and punishable by law.
My advice to you young Rapid. Seek help, get better, turn the page on E-Sports, find a new path. Anyone defending him--catch up.
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On June 27 2020 06:47 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"With the (few) facts that we know of, there is no tribunal in the US that would condemn Rapid for harassment against this girl."
(A tribunal is a court of law, and mcgormack is essentially replacing "believing Melanie's story" with "it wouldn't hold up in the legal system as a criminal charge". He's insisting for an unreasonably high burden of proof, when in reality the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not we are willing to listen to victims and whether or not we should excommunicate Rapid and other abusers, rather than attempt to formally press charges.)
The question is about what should and shouldn't be brought up on a public forum. We all have to draw the line somewhere. I draw the line where our justice system does. If Rapid did things that are against the law (and according to all the testimonies, he did), those stories are relevant. But any story that brings up Rapid being an asshole is maybe too much now. We have enough evidence, judgement passed, session closed.
That's your right to want to draw the line there, so I'd imagine if you created a public forum to discuss certain things, it would make sense to include a set of rules explicitly laying out where you would like that line to be drawn and enforced.
On June 27 2020 06:33 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:27 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:25 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:02 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
Why not. Nothing illegal in that story, and a normal person doesn't get fired for having an unhealthy intimate relationship. We get it, he's acted creepy many times with strangers, now he's rightfully off the Starcraft scene. His name in Google might be associated with these stories for years, which is worse punishment than a normal person would get for talking about his dick to strangers. And now we need to condemn him for his being an asshole in his private love life too? That's enough with the public trial, man. What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once? I mean people 2 days were complaining that 4 people with screenshots was not proof enough of the not unsolicited dick pic. Now that number is 5. This is not unfair to Rapid, in the court of public opinion or law because they often bring evidence of situations that do not rise to the level of criminality to show the pattern of behavior that did. The only way this would be inappropriate is if the Girl didn't want it discussed, but that is not the case. The whole "doth protest too much" comes to mind, because as time goes further the original arguments seem to be forgotten. If she was the first one to come forward you might have a point, she is the at least 5th, to further show the pattern it is completely relevant and helpful to anyone not completely biased. And to be completely honest I wish people were taking this as serious as they would Map hacking, because this is a much bigger problem. Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.) His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all. You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying. I think people have, at least by now, completely understood you and the answer is "no." I think the popular answer is much closer to yes. See the same topic on r/starcraft. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/hga77m/another_accusation_against_rapid/ You're new here so I kind of understand the ignorance. But being different than Reddit is more of a badge of honor than something that will convince us. TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit and that is a good thing. If you plan on sticking around consider that a lot of stuff on reddit is not something to be proud of. edit: DPB thanks for the effort! well summerized really above and beyond.
My pleasure 
On June 27 2020 06:58 IMJIRAIYA wrote:
hey guys. I don't post much here, but felt obligated to say something since this has become a serious topic.
I was a #freeRapid until today. I was ignorant, and needed to catch up. I encourage those who (like me) defend Rapid to read through the statements of the victims. The one that particularly struck me was from Melanie on TwitLonger. She talks about the abuse, the day she met Rapid, the day she last spoke to Rapid, the "heads up on scandal", and hesitancy to even come out. She's not from the BW scene and it took immense courage for her to expose her insecurities to help other victims. Critical note, she even posted mental health links and time to speak to any victims sharing her pain.
It's similar to how I feel about Bill Cosby (Fyi: He was once Father of America as a Black man). 30+ women speak up. What's their motive? What % are telling the truth. All it takes is one truth. One rape, you are a rapist.
In this case, Rapid has used his image (whatever you want to call it) to prey on young females who might be naiive, might be inexperienced, might be vulnerable... doesn't matter. These girls were sexually exploited. I'm fine with dick pics. I'm fine with pervy content. I am Jiraiya after all. However, exploiting minors and mentally/sexually women is wrong and punishable by law.
My advice to you young Rapid. Seek help, get better, turn the page on E-Sports, find a new path. Anyone defending him--catch up.
Awesome post. Thanks for being honest!
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On June 27 2020 06:57 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:49 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:44 NewSunshine wrote:On June 27 2020 06:38 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:33 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:27 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:25 Jealous wrote:On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:
[quote]
Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.)
His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all.
You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying. I think people have, at least by now, completely understood you and the answer is "no." I think the popular answer is much closer to yes. See the same topic on r/starcraft. https://www.reddit.com/r/starcraft/comments/hga77m/another_accusation_against_rapid/ You're new here so I kind of understand the ignorance. But being different than Reddit is more of a badge of honor than something that will convince us. TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit and that is a good thing. If you plan on sticking around consider that a lot of stuff on reddit is not something to be proud of. edit: DPB thanks for the effort! well summerized really above and beyond. Been on TL since 2006 on another account. Every single other MeToo story has deservedly received massive support and upvotes on r/starcraft, just like here. It's fair to assume that the reactions on r/starcraft are representative of the community in general. But keep thinking that everyone here agrees with you because they're more vocal, and everyone elsewhere is an idiot. I don't think anyone called you an idiot. They did point out why you were wrong, though.
TL trends older, wiser and less scummy than Reddit..
I think that people on r/starcraft, while younger in general, are just as smart as the people here. On June 27 2020 06:48 JimmiC wrote:
What is the other account. And why are you not using it? I stopped going on the site for years, lost the password and didn't care too much about the old account. Just as smart arguably sure. Youth and lack of wisdom earned over time (plus consuming vastly different media) do play parts. Go back ten years and myself and others in this thread probably posted idiotic stuff all the time. Younger men are much more concerned about cancel culture and false accusations because media, especially Youtubers really overblow this, so young men tend to worry about it happening to them. To take just one phenomenon, one I think you see reflected in r/Starcraft’s takes vs here
Funny how every single MeToo Starcraft story was heavily supported on reddit by those younger men, except this one.
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On June 27 2020 07:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:47 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"With the (few) facts that we know of, there is no tribunal in the US that would condemn Rapid for harassment against this girl."
(A tribunal is a court of law, and mcgormack is essentially replacing "believing Melanie's story" with "it wouldn't hold up in the legal system as a criminal charge". He's insisting for an unreasonably high burden of proof, when in reality the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not we are willing to listen to victims and whether or not we should excommunicate Rapid and other abusers, rather than attempt to formally press charges.)
The question is about what should and shouldn't be brought up on a public forum. We all have to draw the line somewhere. I draw the line where our justice system does. If Rapid did things that are against the law (and according to all the testimonies, he did), those stories are relevant. But any story that brings up Rapid being an asshole is maybe too much now. We have enough evidence, judgement passed, session closed. That's your right to want to draw the line there, so I'd imagine if you created a public forum to discuss certain things, it would make sense to include a set of rules explicitly laying out where you would like that line to be drawn and enforced.
And where do you draw the line?
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On June 27 2020 07:11 mcgormack wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 07:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 06:47 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"With the (few) facts that we know of, there is no tribunal in the US that would condemn Rapid for harassment against this girl."
(A tribunal is a court of law, and mcgormack is essentially replacing "believing Melanie's story" with "it wouldn't hold up in the legal system as a criminal charge". He's insisting for an unreasonably high burden of proof, when in reality the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not we are willing to listen to victims and whether or not we should excommunicate Rapid and other abusers, rather than attempt to formally press charges.)
The question is about what should and shouldn't be brought up on a public forum. We all have to draw the line somewhere. I draw the line where our justice system does. If Rapid did things that are against the law (and according to all the testimonies, he did), those stories are relevant. But any story that brings up Rapid being an asshole is maybe too much now. We have enough evidence, judgement passed, session closed. That's your right to want to draw the line there, so I'd imagine if you created a public forum to discuss certain things, it would make sense to include a set of rules explicitly laying out where you would like that line to be drawn and enforced. And where do you draw the line?
If I had my own community forum? I would try to make the space a place where victims could feel comfortable coming forward with accounts of harassment, and not turn away from the tough, serious discussions that need to be had in order to address systemic issues of abuse and discrimination. But regardless of my hypothetical forum and your hypothetical forum, we're on the TL forum and they already have some rules in place: https://tl.net/forum/articles/17911-tlnet-10-commandments
(The word "tribunal" doesn't appear in those TL rules, btw.)
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On June 27 2020 06:52 Wombat_NI wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 06:23 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:21 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:19 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:10 JimmiC wrote:On June 27 2020 06:02 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 05:49 JimmiC wrote:
Why not. Nothing illegal in that story, and a normal person doesn't get fired for having an unhealthy intimate relationship. We get it, he's acted creepy many times with strangers, now he's rightfully off the Starcraft scene. His name in Google might be associated with these stories for years, which is worse punishment than a normal person would get for talking about his dick to strangers. And now we need to condemn him for his being an asshole in his private love life too? That's enough with the public trial, man. What's next? A girl he insulted when he was in high school will come out? Maybe he maphacked too in Starcraft once? I mean people 2 days were complaining that 4 people with screenshots was not proof enough of the not unsolicited dick pic. Now that number is 5. This is not unfair to Rapid, in the court of public opinion or law because they often bring evidence of situations that do not rise to the level of criminality to show the pattern of behavior that did. The only way this would be inappropriate is if the Girl didn't want it discussed, but that is not the case. The whole "doth protest too much" comes to mind, because as time goes further the original arguments seem to be forgotten. If she was the first one to come forward you might have a point, she is the at least 5th, to further show the pattern it is completely relevant and helpful to anyone not completely biased. And to be completely honest I wish people were taking this as serious as they would Map hacking, because this is a much bigger problem. Everyone has an ex that can talk shit about her or him, and everyone can talk shit about an ex. When we can into the ex-shit-talking territory, we've often gone too far. (See what happened to Chris Hardwick.) His alleged abusive love life is not relevant to the other events at all. You are just completely wrong, wrong in terms of legality and ethics. And now 70% of your posts are being wrong and defending someone who has basically a mountain of actual evidence against them. It is probably time to reflect on not only this but your life choices in general. He's not Bill Crosby, he's a guy who casted some tournaments of a 20 year old games a few times and sexually harassed some women. Maybe we should slow down on the whole public humiliation treatment before talking about his private love life, where nothing illegal happened. That's all I'm saying. It’s absolutely pertinent to his continued presence in the scene if he indulges in questionable behaviour in his private life. Assuming it is true of course. He works in a still nascent scene that a lot of naive young people want to break into, if he’s sending dick pics around and engaging in behaviour that treads into emotional abuse or grooming then absolutely that is relevant. Especially when networking to get a leg up is rampant in the industry, do you want a guy with that track record exerting that leverage? I don’t actually recall anyone in here calling for Rapid’s head and wanting his life ruined. The general tenor has been if these accusations are true then our scene doesn’t welcome him, but that if he takes it as a learning experience and reflects on his own behaviour there’s plenty else he could be doing.
No engineer or doctor would ever be fired because his ex-wife claims that he groomed her, or acted like an asshole. This would not even belong to the public sphere.
Rapid's life is more ruined than any normal person would be under the same circumstances. Do you realize how bad it is just to have those stories come up when someone googles your name? That can make anyone unemployable right there.
He's acted like a creep, yes, we want him out of the Starcraft scene. Now there has some be some breaks on our train.
On June 27 2020 07:19 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 27 2020 07:11 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 07:02 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 27 2020 06:47 mcgormack wrote:On June 27 2020 06:28 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:
"With the (few) facts that we know of, there is no tribunal in the US that would condemn Rapid for harassment against this girl."
(A tribunal is a court of law, and mcgormack is essentially replacing "believing Melanie's story" with "it wouldn't hold up in the legal system as a criminal charge". He's insisting for an unreasonably high burden of proof, when in reality the discussion in this thread has been about whether or not we are willing to listen to victims and whether or not we should excommunicate Rapid and other abusers, rather than attempt to formally press charges.)
The question is about what should and shouldn't be brought up on a public forum. We all have to draw the line somewhere. I draw the line where our justice system does. If Rapid did things that are against the law (and according to all the testimonies, he did), those stories are relevant. But any story that brings up Rapid being an asshole is maybe too much now. We have enough evidence, judgement passed, session closed. That's your right to want to draw the line there, so I'd imagine if you created a public forum to discuss certain things, it would make sense to include a set of rules explicitly laying out where you would like that line to be drawn and enforced. And where do you draw the line? If I had my own community forum? I would try to make the space a place where victims could feel comfortable coming forward with accounts of harassment, and not turn away from the tough, serious discussions that need to be had in order to address systemic issues of abuse and discrimination. But regardless of my hypothetical forum and your hypothetical forum, we're on the TL forum and they already have some rules in place: https://tl.net/forum/articles/17911-tlnet-10-commandments (The word "tribunal" doesn't appear in those TL rules, btw.)
I'm not talking about censorship and rules, and I don't know why you bring that up. I don't think anything should be censored.
In your opinion, what types of stories of someone who did something wrong should be discussed, and what stories do not deserve to be discussed and debated publicly?
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EPT
