|
I know that the APM of top SC1 and SC2 pro-gamers frequently averages to about 300 APM throughout an entire game (even the games that go 20-30 minutes), and I'm curious as to how that compares with other e-sports and other game genres besides RTS games.
Apparently, top Melee players frequently average around 200 APM, although that's usually just for 5-minute games: https://smashboards.com/threads/apm-of-smashers-july-update-the-fastest-peach.234508/
Does anyone have any idea about average top-level APM in other well-known competitive games across varying game genres, like LoL, DotA, Halo, CoD, MvC, or SF?
|
Hm, how would you even measure APM in a shooter?
You constantly move your mouse and your character, but you cannot really divide this into reasonable units of "actions" due to how continuous movement and mousemovement are. There is none of that "I click this, then i click that, then i press that button" that goes on in SC. Instead you have "I keep on pressing W and D for 8 seconds while slowly moving my mouse around" Neither can you look at in-game actions like shooting or jumping, because how many of those you do is really not relevant at all.
I have a difficulty seeing a reasonable way of measuring APM here, and even if you could, it would be an utterly irrelevant statistic because there are completely different relevant concepts at play, like reaction time or acccuracy. The reason people talk about APM in SC is because it correlates pretty well with winning games.
|
On August 15 2019 20:53 Simberto wrote: Hm, how would you even measure APM in a shooter?
You constantly move your mouse and your character, but you cannot really divide this into reasonable units of "actions" due to how continuous movement and mousemovement are. There is none of that "I click this, then i click that, then i press that button" that goes on in SC. Instead you have "I keep on pressing W and D for 8 seconds while slowly moving my mouse around" Neither can you look at in-game actions like shooting or jumping, because how many of those you do is really not relevant at all.
I have a difficulty seeing a reasonable way of measuring APM here, and even if you could, it would be an utterly irrelevant statistic because there are completely different relevant concepts at play, like reaction time or acccuracy. The reason people talk about APM in SC is because it correlates pretty well with winning games.
That's a good point; it may not make any sense in shooter games! It might make reasonable sense in MOBAs and fighting games though.
|
Canada11355 Posts
On August 15 2019 21:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 20:53 Simberto wrote: Hm, how would you even measure APM in a shooter?
You constantly move your mouse and your character, but you cannot really divide this into reasonable units of "actions" due to how continuous movement and mousemovement are. There is none of that "I click this, then i click that, then i press that button" that goes on in SC. Instead you have "I keep on pressing W and D for 8 seconds while slowly moving my mouse around" Neither can you look at in-game actions like shooting or jumping, because how many of those you do is really not relevant at all.
I have a difficulty seeing a reasonable way of measuring APM here, and even if you could, it would be an utterly irrelevant statistic because there are completely different relevant concepts at play, like reaction time or acccuracy. The reason people talk about APM in SC is because it correlates pretty well with winning games. That's a good point; it may not make any sense in shooter games! It might make reasonable sense in MOBAs and fighting games though.
Heroes of Newerth had an APM stat in the post-game stats. All the APM stat told you is either which heroes require more clicking or who spams their commands more.
I used to play in a number of tournaments for fighting games. I think for this genre, like most others, it's irrelevant. not only do different games require vastly different amounts of input, characters within each game often vary in their complexity and input requirements. A basic 'bread and butter' combo in Dragonball Fighter Z can be 23 (or more) inputs whereas in Street Fighter 5 to get a combo with that many inputs would probably be considered impossible without a bug or exploit.
|
I remember measuring my apm in warsow, which is a quake clone but more fast-paced. I can't remember how much it was but it was higher than my BW apm at that time which must have been around 230. In those arena fps games you get a lot of APM just from basic movement around the map.
It doesn't feel like any effort at all though, because you basically never have to move your hand, just the fingers. The same apm in BW feels like 10x the work.
You can see inputs (except weapon changes) in this vid
|
Thanks for the responses
|
On August 15 2019 21:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 20:53 Simberto wrote: Hm, how would you even measure APM in a shooter?
You constantly move your mouse and your character, but you cannot really divide this into reasonable units of "actions" due to how continuous movement and mousemovement are. There is none of that "I click this, then i click that, then i press that button" that goes on in SC. Instead you have "I keep on pressing W and D for 8 seconds while slowly moving my mouse around" Neither can you look at in-game actions like shooting or jumping, because how many of those you do is really not relevant at all.
I have a difficulty seeing a reasonable way of measuring APM here, and even if you could, it would be an utterly irrelevant statistic because there are completely different relevant concepts at play, like reaction time or acccuracy. The reason people talk about APM in SC is because it correlates pretty well with winning games. That's a good point; it may not make any sense in shooter games! It might make reasonable sense in MOBAs and fighting games though.
A Moba with unlocked camera usually requires around 100 APM to be good at it. Easier heroes you can probably manage around 50's in APM and perform more or less equal. Hardest heroes in Dota 200 APM requirements is common for optimal play.
Average drops a lot though since you spend so much time dead in games.
One of the most common APM sinks high level players do that low level players don't really do is check HP/MP and items of enemies.
|
When your dead is when your can really up your APM average by smashing as many buttons as fast as you can! =-)
|
Does flaming your team in chat count as APM? Because that is something you can do while you are dead!
|
It should, that is a hugely important part of any MOBA
|
On August 16 2019 23:51 Yurie wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2019 21:13 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On August 15 2019 20:53 Simberto wrote: Hm, how would you even measure APM in a shooter?
You constantly move your mouse and your character, but you cannot really divide this into reasonable units of "actions" due to how continuous movement and mousemovement are. There is none of that "I click this, then i click that, then i press that button" that goes on in SC. Instead you have "I keep on pressing W and D for 8 seconds while slowly moving my mouse around" Neither can you look at in-game actions like shooting or jumping, because how many of those you do is really not relevant at all.
I have a difficulty seeing a reasonable way of measuring APM here, and even if you could, it would be an utterly irrelevant statistic because there are completely different relevant concepts at play, like reaction time or acccuracy. The reason people talk about APM in SC is because it correlates pretty well with winning games. That's a good point; it may not make any sense in shooter games! It might make reasonable sense in MOBAs and fighting games though. A Moba with unlocked camera usually requires around 100 APM to be good at it. Easier heroes you can probably manage around 50's in APM and perform more or less equal. Hardest heroes in Dota 200 APM requirements is common for optimal play. Average drops a lot though since you spend so much time dead in games. One of the most common APM sinks high level players do that low level players don't really do is check HP/MP and items of enemies.
My impression is similar to how it was for the longest part of sc2 that top players generally tend to have higher APM than strictly "necessary". While I'd argue that T and P were perfectly playable at 150-200 APM we commonly saw pros breach 300 in GSL after the first 2-3 years with most of the additional APM being wasted/on very miniscule improvements. Similarly in dota 2 most pros I've watched feel closer to 200 APM, despite roughly half of that being very small increments.
Feels to me more that speed as in reaction speed is a great skill to have in those games and being in the click cycle keeps you focused.
|
Where if at all acceptable could a thread discussing twit ch's practices be allowed on team liquid?
|
In light of recent events of the fire in the Amazon rainforest:
Is it normal for secondary succession by fire over there?
|
On August 22 2019 17:33 Emnjay808 wrote: In light of recent events of the fire in the Amazon rainforest:
Is it normal for secondary succession by fire over there? Not in the rainforest. It is a very wet forest, so fires don't naturally burn for very long. The cerrado (one of South America's types of savannah woodlands) is adapted for "frequent" forest fires, but the rainforest is definitely not.
|
How many possible combinations are in a lock that:
-Has 5 numbers, 1 through 5. -Each number can be pressed at most once. -Can press as many numbers as wanted simultaneously. For example pressing 2 and 4 at same time is a different combination than pressing 2 then 4, or pressing 4 then 2
Thank you.
|
How long exactly is a combination? Is a combination only done when all numbers have been pressed once, or do shorter combinations exist? (Is 13 a combination, or is only 13(24)5 a combination?)
Methodologically, i would start with a simple lock, and figure out how stuff evolves from there. One with two numbers for example.
Possible combinations here would be 12 21 (12) and possible 1 2
Then you go for three, and take a look at how that influences the situation, and if you can find something systematic that helps you solve this.
But it should actually be possible to simply solve this by writing all possibilities down. Or just calculating the basic combinations as 5*4*3*2*1 possibilities (assuming full length needed), and then figuring out the weird multipress ones, which should be less than that.
|
Combinations can be between 1 and 5 numbers (press as many as you want and then press enter)
Without doing double numbers, I think it'd be n c k for n=5 and k= 1,2,3,4,5 then add up those 5. I don't know how to get the rest of them.
|
On August 26 2019 23:20 FiWiFaKi wrote: Combinations can be between 1 and 5 numbers (press as many as you want and then press enter)
Without doing double numbers, I think it'd be n c k for n=5 and k= 1,2,3,4,5 then add up those 5. I don't know how to get the rest of them.
No. n c k gives you picks of k out of n numbers. But it doesn't do order. (so it doesn't differentiate between 132 and 123) 5c5 is 1, because you just grab all of them, but you need all the possible combinations with ordering.
What you need is n!/(n-k)! which is close to the formula for n c k, but not the same. Where k is the amount of numbers grabbed. (example: n=5, k=3 ---> 5*4*3*2*1/2*1 = 5*4*3, which is exactly what you get when you realize that you have 5 numbers to choose from for first position, 4 for second, and 3 for third)
Then, you need to take a look at the weird combinations. Lets start with something simple. Exactly two numbers pressed at once. Let's say with (12). Now, you simply do the same thing as above, but simply treat (12) as a single number, so you have a set of only 4 numbers (12);3;4;5 , out of which you take up to 4, with ordering. This is clearly the same for all sets of two numbers, and none of them overlap. So multiply the result of this by the amount of possible two number combinations.
Then do the same with 3 numbers pressed at the same time, and so on.
|
On August 26 2019 23:11 FiWiFaKi wrote: How many possible combinations are in a lock that:
-Has 5 numbers, 1 through 5. -Each number can be pressed at most once. -Can press as many numbers as wanted simultaneously. For example pressing 2 and 4 at same time is a different combination than pressing 2 then 4, or pressing 4 then 2
Thank you. 182
EZ. You all suck. Did this in my head in under 2 min.
Pls thank me for doing your homework for you.
|
I am pretty sure it is not that.
5*4*3*2*1 is 120 5*4*3*2 is also 120
That means that the number of 5 and 4 number combinations without the weird numbers thing is already 240, which means that the total is not 182.
|
|
|
|