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Because of the superb waveclear, trait and the fun ult, people could come to that conclusion. But Imo he is a melee mage. That makes him special, but it doesn't mean he is a specialist. Specialists in HotS is more a name for sustained damage dealers. Or for matchmaking sake, heroes that don't fit into a role.
Zarya is an Overwatch Character, those tend to be hybrids of two or more classic roles in Overwatch. So they have to transfer that. Medivh is a specialst, because matchmaking reasons.
And every player skill that kills a minion will grant exp from anywhere. if you want constant lane exp, Hammer with BFG is your gal. Thats why I love Hydra and Gazlow Turrets. They have good chances to get the exp even if you leave lane for a moment.
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The "What is a Specialist" discussion is kind of interesting,
Abathur Azmodan Gazlowe Murky Medivh Nazeebo Sgt. Hammer Sylvanas The Lost Vikings Xul Zagara
Gonna off the top of my head some potential ways to label the sects of specialists,
Spawners Nazeebo, Zagara, Xul, Azmodan, Gazlowe
Gimmick Abathur, TLV, Murky
Fort/Keep Direct Destruction Sgt. Hammer, Sylvanas
"Other" designation Medivh
The one real thread that I can see that unites these characters is a strength against non-Heroic enemies, either by outranging structures, disabling structures, or overwhelming structures (I'm loosely lumping Murky here since he has the death-gimmick.)
I think what makes Rag feel so much like a specialist is his very crazy Trait that goes into Specialist territory since it focuses on structures and feels like a gimmick (a really cool gimmick, I love it, I'm not shit talking it) while this feels really Specialist-y, the trait seems to be really more focused on fending off heroes more than anything else, you won't be pushing forts down with Rag's trait so much as defending your own from heroes and trying to use it to sway teamfights (or I'm nuts and am missing the point of it which is definitely possible!) his Lava Wave destroys minions and travels in a lane in a relatively Specialist way, I mean in theory no heroes should be easily hit by Lava Wave, it doesnt seem like the intent is particularly to punish heroes since it travels conforming to the contour of a particular lane.
Rag could be a Specialist, hes kind of in that weird Medivh area though where its probably better that hes not just because it broadens the role of a specialist.
Well thats my inane thoughts for the night.
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United States4883 Posts
On December 30 2016 13:21 Zambrah wrote: The "What is a Specialist" discussion is kind of interesting,
Abathur Azmodan Gazlowe Murky Medivh Nazeebo Sgt. Hammer Sylvanas The Lost Vikings Xul Zagara
Gonna off the top of my head some potential ways to label the sects of specialists,
Spawners Nazeebo, Zagara, Xul, Azmodan, Gazlowe
Gimmick Abathur, TLV, Murky
Fort/Keep Direct Destruction Sgt. Hammer, Sylvanas
"Other" designation Medivh
The one real thread that I can see that unites these characters is a strength against non-Heroic enemies, either by outranging structures, disabling structures, or overwhelming structures (I'm loosely lumping Murky here since he has the death-gimmick.)
I think what makes Rag feel so much like a specialist is his very crazy Trait that goes into Specialist territory since it focuses on structures and feels like a gimmick (a really cool gimmick, I love it, I'm not shit talking it) while this feels really Specialist-y, the trait seems to be really more focused on fending off heroes more than anything else, you won't be pushing forts down with Rag's trait so much as defending your own from heroes and trying to use it to sway teamfights (or I'm nuts and am missing the point of it which is definitely possible!) his Lava Wave destroys minions and travels in a lane in a relatively Specialist way, I mean in theory no heroes should be easily hit by Lava Wave, it doesnt seem like the intent is particularly to punish heroes since it travels conforming to the contour of a particular lane.
Rag could be a Specialist, hes kind of in that weird Medivh area though where its probably better that hes not just because it broadens the role of a specialist.
Well thats my inane thoughts for the night.
I tend to group them a bit differently in my head, and I don't believe they all need to be categorized as just one single thing.
Pushers Zagara, Xul, Azmodan
Split pushers Abathur, TLV, Murky, Zagara
Utility Abathur, Sylvanas, Medivh
Damage Hammer, Sylvanas, Nazeebo
In any case, I think people struggle with this designation way more than they should. Specialist is a pretty non-descriptive term, but it generally works as a classification for "other". Specialists are rarely defined by their damage, tankiness, or healing/shielding capabilities, so they are just...other (which often times happens to be their split pushing power). The only one that I think probably deserves a re-classification is Hammer, who is 90% about big damage from a long range (assassin).
I believe Ragnaros could very clearly find himself in the specialist category since it's his trait that generally defines him, but since Blizzard classified him as an assassin, I think it's clear that their goal is to make his damage output a defining characteristic. His trait might be a little overtuned right now.
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I find Azmodan more of a split pusher. Not that you have to split push with him though, you're better defending the weakest lane. Sending your generals wreck top lane when you and your team delay bottom tribute forever is his biggest strenght to me.
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Does Sylvanas not also generally fit the category of an assassin though? If Hammer is an assassin then Sylvanas would certainly count considering they both have an ignore-the-fort ability baked in and are otherwise rather typical of assassin characters (and Hammer's range is a rather "other" aspect of an assassin, look at Li Ming ,she was effectively doing the Hammer thing but they didnt really want her doing the Hammer thing as well as she was). Nazeebo doubly so, he would most easily slot into the assassin role since his abilities are relatively non descript. Ragnaros is also in this camp, but really I think this is mostly an issue of Blizzard not really having that strong a concept of what a "Specialist" is leading to it being the "Other" category (which we seem to agree on.) I think during the inception of the game the intention was to have them be PvE-focused characters that pushed really hard.
And those are my inane morning thoughts of the morning!
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United States4883 Posts
On December 30 2016 23:48 Zambrah wrote: Does Sylvanas not also generally fit the category of an assassin though? If Hammer is an assassin then Sylvanas would certainly count considering they both have an ignore-the-fort ability baked in and are otherwise rather typical of assassin characters (and Hammer's range is a rather "other" aspect of an assassin, look at Li Ming ,she was effectively doing the Hammer thing but they didnt really want her doing the Hammer thing as well as she was). Nazeebo doubly so, he would most easily slot into the assassin role since his abilities are relatively non descript. Ragnaros is also in this camp, but really I think this is mostly an issue of Blizzard not really having that strong a concept of what a "Specialist" is leading to it being the "Other" category (which we seem to agree on.) I think during the inception of the game the intention was to have them be PvE-focused characters that pushed really hard.
And those are my inane morning thoughts of the morning!
Nah. No one picks Sylvanas because she does insane amounts of damage. They pick her because her trait is OPOP and allows them to get a lot out of objectives/advantages...it just so happens that she has decent damage and one of the best teamfighting ults in the game.
I have no idea what the hell Nazeebo brings to the table, but it's not much. They might have to do a full redesign on him at some point.
On December 30 2016 18:47 Leolio wrote: I find Azmodan more of a split pusher. Not that you have to split push with him though, you're better defending the weakest lane. Sending your generals wreck top lane when you and your team delay bottom tribute forever is his biggest strenght to me.
I think of Azmodan as providing pressure on lanes but not necessarily going YOLO afk and pushing down side lanes by himself (except for snoozers in QM). In any sort of..."good"?...play, he's taken for his ability to push/de-push the lanes and provide some big poke damage during fights. I guess what I'm trying to say is that his main strength isn't split pushing, but his pushing power can be used for that purpose.
I dunno, I could just be thinking about it wrong. That's just how I see him.
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I count azmo as a split pusher, not for his potential to yolo one lane, usually bad play, but with his general of hell and later long distance wave clear with globes. Azmo brings light but constant lane pressure and xp soak. When he does siege structures himself, he does a good job with lazer. So i think he counts as pusher too. Much like Zagara but not as powerful as (nydus) Zagara.
Its indeed confusing. Sylvanas, much like Ragnaros, is a strong damage dealer that has a strong extra advantage on top of it, and yet, different roles.
Azmodan could use a small buff to his weirdness and Nazeebo too, if he is supposed to do something not teamfight related. I think Naz is better off as an assassin, but i don't mind if the tag is not changed.
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On December 31 2016 02:40 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2016 23:48 Zambrah wrote: Does Sylvanas not also generally fit the category of an assassin though? If Hammer is an assassin then Sylvanas would certainly count considering they both have an ignore-the-fort ability baked in and are otherwise rather typical of assassin characters (and Hammer's range is a rather "other" aspect of an assassin, look at Li Ming ,she was effectively doing the Hammer thing but they didnt really want her doing the Hammer thing as well as she was). Nazeebo doubly so, he would most easily slot into the assassin role since his abilities are relatively non descript. Ragnaros is also in this camp, but really I think this is mostly an issue of Blizzard not really having that strong a concept of what a "Specialist" is leading to it being the "Other" category (which we seem to agree on.) I think during the inception of the game the intention was to have them be PvE-focused characters that pushed really hard.
And those are my inane morning thoughts of the morning!
Nah. No one picks Sylvanas because she does insane amounts of damage. They pick her because her trait is OPOP and allows them to get a lot out of objectives/advantages...it just so happens that she has decent damage and one of the best teamfighting ults in the game. I have no idea what the hell Nazeebo brings to the table, but it's not much. They might have to do a full redesign on him at some point. Show nested quote +On December 30 2016 18:47 Leolio wrote: I find Azmodan more of a split pusher. Not that you have to split push with him though, you're better defending the weakest lane. Sending your generals wreck top lane when you and your team delay bottom tribute forever is his biggest strenght to me. I think of Azmodan as providing pressure on lanes but not necessarily going YOLO afk and pushing down side lanes by himself (except for snoozers in QM). In any sort of..."good"?...play, he's taken for his ability to push/de-push the lanes and provide some big poke damage during fights. I guess what I'm trying to say is that his main strength isn't split pushing, but his pushing power can be used for that purpose. I dunno, I could just be thinking about it wrong. That's just how I see him.
I'm not talking about viability though, I'm just talking about their kits if we set aside their fort-ignoring speciality, would Sylvanas not operate pretty much like an assassin? I'm not denying that her definitive characteristics are her trait, but if we set that aside shes pretty much an assassin right? Its semi-hard to compare it to Hammer since her Siege Mode isn't necessarily a trait (though I think its easily in the spirit of a trait since its her defining characteristic)
I'm not saying Sylvanas or Hammer don't belong in the Specialist camp either, but I'm trying to figure out some area of commonality we can discern about Specialists, right now I have to lean towards a PvE strength although thats obviously a hyper broad term that many assassins could technically fill themselves.
Nazeebo does need a serious rehaul though, lord has he not been remotely relevant in forever.
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Sylv does sustained damaged, which usually is associated with Specialists. Assassins are usually burst, outside of autoattackers.
While Sylv build feels assassin like, she lacks damage and sustain, to combat any assassin. She is capable at fighting specialists rather well though, because of her trait she can even defend lanes against most specialists. But for matchmaking purposes, she would do badly as an assassin.
Hammer is an Autoattacker, but because she gets a huge boost from being stationary, it would be a bad idea to label her assassin. Because 50% of assassins can just explode her when she does it.
So one big reason is iMo protect the noobs.
They also both cannot be ignored when in lane, which is also a specialist thing.
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I mean would you classify Valla as a burst damage dealer? Her trait more or less requires some degree of build up, really any AA hero can't really be classified as a burst damage dealer right, I mean Raynor isn't exactly comboing all of his abilities off to destroy people quickly. I've always thought that there was already a sustained vs. burst damage line in the Assassin field via AA vs. Mage
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United States4883 Posts
On December 31 2016 21:35 FeyFey wrote: Hammer is an Autoattacker, but because she gets a huge boost from being stationary, it would be a bad idea to label her assassin. Because 50% of assassins can just explode her when she does it.
Have you ever played a ranged assassin like Valla or Greymane into Hammer? It feels awful, Hammer wrecks them.
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On December 31 2016 02:40 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 30 2016 23:48 Zambrah wrote: Does Sylvanas not also generally fit the category of an assassin though? If Hammer is an assassin then Sylvanas would certainly count considering they both have an ignore-the-fort ability baked in and are otherwise rather typical of assassin characters (and Hammer's range is a rather "other" aspect of an assassin, look at Li Ming ,she was effectively doing the Hammer thing but they didnt really want her doing the Hammer thing as well as she was). Nazeebo doubly so, he would most easily slot into the assassin role since his abilities are relatively non descript. Ragnaros is also in this camp, but really I think this is mostly an issue of Blizzard not really having that strong a concept of what a "Specialist" is leading to it being the "Other" category (which we seem to agree on.) I think during the inception of the game the intention was to have them be PvE-focused characters that pushed really hard.
And those are my inane morning thoughts of the morning!
Nah. No one picks Sylvanas because she does insane amounts of damage. They pick her because her trait is OPOP and allows them to get a lot out of objectives/advantages...it just so happens that she has decent damage and one of the best teamfighting ults in the game. I have no idea what the hell Nazeebo brings to the table, but it's not much. They might have to do a full redesign on him at some point. Show nested quote +On December 30 2016 18:47 Leolio wrote: I find Azmodan more of a split pusher. Not that you have to split push with him though, you're better defending the weakest lane. Sending your generals wreck top lane when you and your team delay bottom tribute forever is his biggest strenght to me. I think of Azmodan as providing pressure on lanes but not necessarily going YOLO afk and pushing down side lanes by himself (except for snoozers in QM). In any sort of..."good"?...play, he's taken for his ability to push/de-push the lanes and provide some big poke damage during fights. I guess what I'm trying to say is that his main strength isn't split pushing, but his pushing power can be used for that purpose. I dunno, I could just be thinking about it wrong. That's just how I see him.
I almost agree, but Blizzard is clarely exploring the boundries between the classes now, so that everything gets blurry.
Ragnaros is right between assasin and specialist. I think the reason for him being an assasin is that his kit, other than one ult and trait, is not very specialist-like, as not focussing on wave-clear, pushing or just very weird ways of combat.
Rexxar, Rainor, Thrall and Chen are other strong solo-laners which could technically also be specialists, but their overall kit and playstyle make them something else. Sindragosa is also a "specialist" ultimate, but that does not change the role of Arthas in any way.
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On December 31 2016 02:40 SC2John wrote:
I have no idea what the hell Nazeebo brings to the table, but it's not much. They might have to do a full redesign on him at some point.
Lots of unreliable damage and zone control. I think of him as a gold-league hero, and I think bliz is fine with some heroes being in that role.
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On January 02 2017 02:41 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2016 02:40 SC2John wrote:
I have no idea what the hell Nazeebo brings to the table, but it's not much. They might have to do a full redesign on him at some point.
Lots of unreliable damage and zone control. I think of him as a gold-league hero, and I think bliz is fine with some heroes being in that role.
Just had someone first ban Nazeebo 'because he's op'.
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On January 02 2017 03:04 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 02:41 MotherFox wrote:On December 31 2016 02:40 SC2John wrote:
I have no idea what the hell Nazeebo brings to the table, but it's not much. They might have to do a full redesign on him at some point.
Lots of unreliable damage and zone control. I think of him as a gold-league hero, and I think bliz is fine with some heroes being in that role. Just had someone first ban Nazeebo 'because he's op'.
I just had two games in a row where someone on my team fp'd varian. Clearly people don't understand drafting.
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On January 01 2017 03:26 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2016 21:35 FeyFey wrote: Hammer is an Autoattacker, but because she gets a huge boost from being stationary, it would be a bad idea to label her assassin. Because 50% of assassins can just explode her when she does it. Have you ever played a ranged assassin like Valla or Greymane into Hammer? It feels awful, Hammer wrecks them.
I don't think I've seen a greymane even once all season in ranked.
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On January 02 2017 02:41 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On December 31 2016 02:40 SC2John wrote:
I have no idea what the hell Nazeebo brings to the table, but it's not much. They might have to do a full redesign on him at some point.
Lots of unreliable damage and zone control. I think of him as a gold-league hero, and I think bliz is fine with some heroes being in that role. i don't understand why nazeebo would be good in any league at anything. everything he does, there are heroes who do it all and better
like what the fuck how is naz at 52% on hotslogs, it doesn't make sense, he gets pooped on in all of my games
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United States4883 Posts
On January 02 2017 03:40 MotherFox wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2017 03:26 SC2John wrote:On December 31 2016 21:35 FeyFey wrote: Hammer is an Autoattacker, but because she gets a huge boost from being stationary, it would be a bad idea to label her assassin. Because 50% of assassins can just explode her when she does it. Have you ever played a ranged assassin like Valla or Greymane into Hammer? It feels awful, Hammer wrecks them. I don't think I've seen a greymane even once all season in ranked.
He's still decent on BoE if you can't have Valla. Other than that...yeah, he's not that useful.
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On January 02 2017 06:24 SC2John wrote:Show nested quote +On January 02 2017 03:40 MotherFox wrote:On January 01 2017 03:26 SC2John wrote:On December 31 2016 21:35 FeyFey wrote: Hammer is an Autoattacker, but because she gets a huge boost from being stationary, it would be a bad idea to label her assassin. Because 50% of assassins can just explode her when she does it. Have you ever played a ranged assassin like Valla or Greymane into Hammer? It feels awful, Hammer wrecks them. I don't think I've seen a greymane even once all season in ranked. He's still decent on BoE if you can't have Valla. Other than that...yeah, he's not that useful.
I mean, I saw varian in almost every single game I played today---- so clearly being useful isn't the rubric used for picking heroes in heroleague. I guess greymane just isn't fun to play since bliz took away the ease of cocktailing and tried to "encourage" wolf form. [changes which in reality "encouraged" people to go play something else]
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If you guys look at naz's win by game time it might give you some idea of why he's bad for pros and...well, not good....but more than 50% winrate in hl. The later the game goes the more likely naz will just win. Probably b/c many of his level 20 talents are insane. (vile infection makes a single cast of spiders 3/4 just about any ranged assassin in the game.)
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