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On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win.
Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength.
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On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD.
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On July 23 2016 17:24 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD.
But Luffy is not alone. So whats your point?
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On July 23 2016 17:34 sharkie wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 17:24 Elentos wrote:On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD. But Luffy is not alone. So whats your point? that he couldn't beat DD on his own and friendship, in fact, is not a super power
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and that's fine imo, the fact that luffy alone needs back up and a well rounded team to beat a stronger opponent is better than him going ham à la fairy tail
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actually luffys ability to make almost any neutral he meets his ally is exactly what makes him so strong. thats pretty much the entire reason why he is later going to be able to take on the WG. hes not gonna rock up with the thousand sunny and be like "yo marine fags lets settle this shit with a series of 1v1s. i fight akainu, zoro fights fuji and sanji fights kizaru. everyone else just grab your popcorn and watch pls"
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On July 23 2016 09:48 Forikorder wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 09:30 BlackMagister wrote:On July 23 2016 03:43 Sentenal wrote:On July 23 2016 02:22 BlackMagister wrote:On July 23 2016 01:14 Sentenal wrote:On July 23 2016 00:19 BlackMagister wrote: Not sure who you're referring to, but I don't think Sanji is unimportant just that he has been lackluster in his performance as a monster trio member. Of course Sanji has always been weaker than Luffy and Zoro, but he always felt comparable in strength pre-time skip. Post time skip he feels a tier below trading unfavorably with Vergo and getting destroyed by DD who wasn't even serious yet. Luffy would have lost to DD without help and Zoro may have lost 1v1 vs DD too, but they would at least be able to hold him off. Post time skip Sanji has defeated how many named enemies? Px-7, Kracken, Wadatsumi, Sheep-head and Yonji? Luffy and Zoro would have been consistent with their pre-time skip performance defeating the leader and second in command respectively, Sanji has not. One Piece is about more than just fights, but being considered part of the Monster Trio is specifically about fighting. You know the bolded part didn't actually happen, right? He was caught in his strings, but that doesn't mean "destroyed". Same shit happened to Jozu at Marineford, and if hes a weakling too, I dunno what to say. And as for defeated named enemies, its hardly a fair comparison, given Sanji wasn't present for the climax of Dressrosa, and the guy did take on Big Mom's Pirate Ship by himself. To be more accurate he was injured by DD and was about to about to get hit by a lethal blow, but was saved by Law. Sanji should have put up a better fight than Jozu did because he has even more mobility than DD and specializes in observation haki. All of the Straw hats have suffered some cheap losses post time skip to Hordy, Yeti bros and Caesar for example, but Sanji's fights against Vergo and DD felt more like he was being walled than tricked. I want to see Sanji be cool and have high hopes for him this arc even though it's a rescue Sanji arc. I figure its pretty normal for shounen manga for characters to take attacks that look to be lethal, take it, and live/keep fighting. DD chose an over the top execution move where just the wind up for the attack was destroying Dressrosa a mile away because Sanji was trapped. I think the move would have killed Sanji even breaking full body haki like Vergo or Pica if it hit. Sure shounen characters can sometimes take attacks that are supposed to be lethal and survive, but it's easier for them to just be saved at the last second like Sanji was. To counter the string trap either don't get hit, which I think was Sanji's only chance, or have the strength/expansion of a G4 type move to break the string. shrinking could work too, its also possible he could burn off the strings with his fire kicks
IMO Sanji could never break the strings since Fujitora, Zoro, couldn't do it
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On July 23 2016 18:28 Ej_ wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 17:34 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 17:24 Elentos wrote:On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD. But Luffy is not alone. So whats your point? that he couldn't beat DD on his own and friendship, in fact, is not a super power
Why are Luffy's relationships and the advantage that gives him not considered a part of his "strength?"
Why arbitrarily decide that two characters can only be compared in a 1v1 fight?
It's like saying "1 on 1 Sanji is stronger than Zoro without his swords."
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On July 24 2016 07:40 Rehio wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 18:28 Ej_ wrote:On July 23 2016 17:34 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 17:24 Elentos wrote:On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD. But Luffy is not alone. So whats your point? that he couldn't beat DD on his own and friendship, in fact, is not a super power Why are Luffy's relationships and the advantage that gives him not considered a part of his "strength?" Why arbitrarily decide that two characters can only be compared in a 1v1 fight? It's like saying "1 on 1 Sanji is stronger than Zoro without his swords." You're comparing an integral part of one's fighting style to the interference of other people that can't always be called upon, you know.
Why would anyone even try to argue that Luffy himself isn't weaker than DD? That's not something bad, it leaves him room for growth. And it also means Oda still has room for villains that aren't quite as strong as DD in a direct fight but still a challenge for Luffy.
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As far as Luffy vs Doflamingo goes, I don't think who is stronger 1v1 is really clear. Once Luffy finally got to Doflamingo and their proper fight started, Doflamingo would have surely won if Luffy hadn't had help.
But another way to look at it is look what all Luffy had to go through to even get to Doflamingo. Doflamingo was just chilling on top of his palace through virtually the whole climax until Luffy and Law made it to him. So an argument could be made that Luffy wasn't 100% when he got to Doflamingo, and perhaps things could have gone easier if it truly was a 1v1 without interference, since both characters received plentiful outside help during and prior to their fight.
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On July 24 2016 09:03 Sentenal wrote: As far as Luffy vs Doflamingo goes, I don't think who is stronger 1v1 is really clear. Once Luffy finally got to Doflamingo and their proper fight started, Doflamingo would have surely won if Luffy hadn't had help.
But another way to look at it is look what all Luffy had to go through to even get to Doflamingo. Doflamingo was just chilling on top of his palace through virtually the whole climax until Luffy and Law made it to him. So an argument could be made that Luffy wasn't 100% when he got to Doflamingo, and perhaps things could have gone easier if it truly was a 1v1 without interference, since both characters received plentiful outside help during and prior to their fight. really no argument there, Luffy got a huge hit on him thanks to law and then law tore apart his organs and DD took it all like a champ, not to mention he endured a long one sided beating from Gear 4 i dont think anyone can argue that Luffy was beaten up more then DD was when there 1v1 started, at least not so much more that it could be considered a handicap
plus DD was maintaining the birdcage, controlling citizens and fighting with his string clone just as much as Luffy was expending effort getting to him
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On July 23 2016 17:24 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD.
Ok, so by your logic, Sugar is stronger than Luffy.
Cause in a 1v1, she would have tricked him, touched him, turn him into a toy and that's it.
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On July 24 2016 19:12 SkrollK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2016 17:24 Elentos wrote:On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD. Ok, so by your logic, Sugar is stronger than Luffy. Cause in a 1v1, she would have tricked him, touched him, turn him into a toy and that's it. You can't possibly be serious.
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On July 24 2016 19:56 Elentos wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 19:12 SkrollK wrote:On July 23 2016 17:24 Elentos wrote:On July 23 2016 15:37 sharkie wrote:On July 23 2016 13:37 BlackMagister wrote: No, it just proves that Luffy is weaker than DD since he needed a lot of help to win. Luffy beat DD, how does that make him weaker? His allies and ability to inspire others to help him are part of his strength. In a one on one fight with nobody around to help he would have gotten killed because he wouldn't have had help recovering after Gear 4 wore off. So on his own he is weaker than DD. Ok, so by your logic, Sugar is stronger than Luffy. Cause in a 1v1, she would have tricked him, touched him, turn him into a toy and that's it. You can't possibly be serious.
I think it might be your logic that isnt really serious. You're basically saying that strength have to be mesured in 1on1 without any exterior alements, purely based on who wins.
I'm a just following your logic.
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You aren't following logic at all in your imaginary Sugar v Luffy fight. It's just a random sequence of events where Sugar defeats Luffy.
There is nothing in Elentos's logic to suggest such a sequence of events. There is nothing in the story Oda has written to suggest such a sequence of events.
So, there is no logic to which SkrollK is following at all.
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On July 24 2016 21:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You aren't following logic at all in your imaginary Sugar v Luffy fight. It's just a random sequence of events where Sugar defeats Luffy.
There is nothing in Elentos's logic to suggest such a sequence of events. There is nothing in the story Oda has written to suggest such a sequence of events.
So, there is no logic to which SkrollK is following at all.
Did you even read the pages before ?
Elentos said that the only way to mesure the strength of any character in OP was straight 11 without any disturbance by anyone, and focusing only on combat skill, with such things as Conqueror's Haki not even being part of the equation (it's not a combat skill apparently).
So, by his logic, since it has been pointed out by Oda (http://www.mangapanda.com/one-piece/758/13), using the conditions and hypothesis that Elentos stated before to mesure the strength of characters in OP, Sugar would have pretty high odds to be able to touch Luffy at least once, therefore turning him into a toy, therefore winning the duel, therefore being stronger than Luffy.
I fail to see what you can't understand...
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On July 24 2016 22:10 SkrollK wrote:Show nested quote +On July 24 2016 21:54 Dangermousecatdog wrote: You aren't following logic at all in your imaginary Sugar v Luffy fight. It's just a random sequence of events where Sugar defeats Luffy.
There is nothing in Elentos's logic to suggest such a sequence of events. There is nothing in the story Oda has written to suggest such a sequence of events.
So, there is no logic to which SkrollK is following at all. Did you even read the pages before ? Elentos said that the only way to mesure the strength of any character in OP was straight 11 without any disturbance by anyone, and focusing only on combat skill, with such things as Conqueror's Haki not even being part of the equation (it's not a combat skill apparently). I didn't say that but whatever.
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Yes One Piece is more than 1v1s, but I don't get why people are shitting on 1v1s and saying they don't matter when clearly One Piece has a history of it. Do I need to list every fight in One Piece the majority of which have been 1v1s? How does the Straw Hat crew solve problems against the arc villain? Sure other people do fight the arc villain, but it usually does come down to a 1v1 with Luffy vs Arlong/Don Krieg/Crocodile/Enel/Lucci/ Hordy/Caesar and yes the majority of DD fight. This isn't including even side fights which are also often 1v1 and other fights like Luffy vs Fujitora where the rest of the crew stands aside to let Luffy have his 1v1.
You also trivialize the fights of the series by not including context and including instant gib powers like Perona, Hancock and Sugar. If there was a page where Perona used her DF on Mihawk than obviously Ussop>Perona>Mihawk>Zoro. Which nobody thinks and you don't need to say. The Luffy vs DD fight is used to estimate Luffy's fighting strength, there is disagreement on if Luffy actually is weaker than DD, but it is clear Luffy needed to borrow the strength of others to win.
Anyways point is Sanji is still a ways off in strength, at least in display strength, from the rest when he needed help just to live vs DD. Which is not the same as Luffy needing help to defeat a serious and enraged DD.
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Actually, no, One Piece is strictly about 1v1 fights. Every arc is just a bunch of filler build up to the fight. If Oda just cut out everything from Dressrosa except for the luffy vs doffy fight then it would be 10x better. That, and add strict power levels for every character, remove all miscellaneous powers except for Haki and just have every character fight hand to hand. Perfect manga right there.
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On July 25 2016 04:06 Hyperbola wrote: Actually, no, One Piece is strictly about 1v1 fights. Every arc is just a bunch of filler build up to the fight. If Oda just cut out everything from Dressrosa except for the luffy vs doffy fight then it would be 10x better. That, and add strict power levels for every character, remove all miscellaneous powers except for Haki and just have every character fight hand to hand. Perfect manga right there.
lol no, OP is great not only because of its fights but especially because of all the stuff around the fights...
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