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On June 01 2015 02:18 winsonsonho wrote: I don't understand how people are looking past the fact that the Cyclone can move and shoot at the same time. Blizzard tried it with the Diamondback and that was ridiculous, why are they trying to implement it again? I still think it doesn't belong on the Phoenix, but at least it is somewhat passable to a small degree on a flying unit that has a limited role. It takes away any real skill required in using a units movement and attack characteristics together. Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler + this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong.
Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say?
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this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong.
Can't help but feel this concept is more of a "hard to learn, hard to master"-design. I think having to face the absolute correct angle before your units shoot makes it a bit too complicated.
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On June 01 2015 03:53 Hider wrote:Show nested quote +this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Can't help but feel this concept is more of a "hard to learn, hard to master"-design. I think having to face the absolute correct angle before your units shoot makes it a bit too complicated. They can shoot at targets within a 90° arc in front of them. This unit will always get a shot off and deal damage, but maybe it will auto-attack a low priority target instead of what you would have liked. If your micro is suboptimal you will still deal damage, but the damage might be more on buildings or cheap combat units instead of workers or other high priority targets. But if you micro is good then you can control the damage you deal and snipe workers / high templars / etc.
But this unit is not just for micro intensive harassment, it also has a 1:1 resources to hitpoint relation and costs only 1 supply. This means that, although individually these units die very quickly, a big mass of them is comparatively beefy and a cost effective meat shield for more important units. Furthermore they can attack air units too, in combination with their high movement speed they can keep pace with mutalisks and drops or take out overlords in the early game; you can be out on the map looking for air targets to snipe.
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On June 01 2015 03:20 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2015 02:18 winsonsonho wrote: I don't understand how people are looking past the fact that the Cyclone can move and shoot at the same time. Blizzard tried it with the Diamondback and that was ridiculous, why are they trying to implement it again? I still think it doesn't belong on the Phoenix, but at least it is somewhat passable to a small degree on a flying unit that has a limited role. It takes away any real skill required in using a units movement and attack characteristics together. Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIKJUyyI_w this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say?
What you did there is simply taking vulture move-shot mechanic and implement it in a unit. Vultures rocked in BW, but I think that this kind of attack style makes little sense on any of the SC2 units we have, because it is meant to work well in a fast-moving unit with air-like movement with acceleration/deceleration. Sadly the only ground unit that moves fast in SC2 is the Hellion and it doesn't fire projectiles.
I would like it to had been implemented again on "soul Hunters" from SC2 alpha, which looked quite vultur-ish.
I think that it could be interesting to be tested with Cyclones, but that type of micro means that units will get exposed quite more easily, as you balance high-speed with low ranges to prevent infinite kiting. I'm not very sure about making mid/mid-lategame units easy to get exposed due to the nature of their attack, since a bad move could mean that you are going to get a buch of expensive units exposed and sniped or sourrounded relatively easy.
But if you want my opinion, I would like it to be implemented on Sentries just for random funs.
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I actually think Cyclones should retain their air attack, but compensated elsewhere by reducing their health or speed/range. It gives valid non-marine option before Thors to combat air.
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On June 01 2015 03:20 RoomOfMush wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2015 02:18 winsonsonho wrote: I don't understand how people are looking past the fact that the Cyclone can move and shoot at the same time. Blizzard tried it with the Diamondback and that was ridiculous, why are they trying to implement it again? I still think it doesn't belong on the Phoenix, but at least it is somewhat passable to a small degree on a flying unit that has a limited role. It takes away any real skill required in using a units movement and attack characteristics together. Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIKJUyyI_w this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say?
That does make it a little more skill intensive but not enough in my opinion. And that movement just looked too jerky, I got somewhat Storm Hawk car sick ;P With moving shots a unit will always shoot at its highest rate if it is within shooting distance. This means that the players skill in switching between shooting and moving will always be below optimal for a non moving shot unit. The better the player can control the unit the closer it is to shooting at its optimal rate, so a better player can always get that little extra out. Your idea is a hybrid, and I think there is no reason to have any sort of moving shot in a competitive RTS just for the sake of diversity.
Blizzard mostly likes to do things their way and try totally new 'cool' things. That's great sometimes but often simple, strong and proven mechanics are better. Blizzard are a stubborn and average design team. Things will not get better than WOL or HOTS if they don't become a lot more humble. They seriously need to start learning from their mistakes, start making bigger changes, start listening to the general consensus and stop pretending that they're actually communicating openly and honestly with the community.
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On June 01 2015 06:25 winsonsonho wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2015 03:20 RoomOfMush wrote:On June 01 2015 02:18 winsonsonho wrote: I don't understand how people are looking past the fact that the Cyclone can move and shoot at the same time. Blizzard tried it with the Diamondback and that was ridiculous, why are they trying to implement it again? I still think it doesn't belong on the Phoenix, but at least it is somewhat passable to a small degree on a flying unit that has a limited role. It takes away any real skill required in using a units movement and attack characteristics together. Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIKJUyyI_w this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say? That does make it a little more skill intensive but not enough in my opinion. And that movement just looked too jerky, I got somewhat Storm Hawk car sick ;P With moving shots a unit will always shoot at its highest rate if it is within shooting distance. This means that the players skill in switching between shooting and moving will always be below optimal for a non moving shot unit. The better the player can control the unit the closer it is to shooting at its optimal rate, so a better player can always get that little extra out. Your idea is a hybrid, and I think there is no reason to have any sort of moving shot in a competitive RTS just for the sake of diversity. Blizzard mostly likes to do things their way and try totally new 'cool' things. That's great sometimes but often simple, strong and proven mechanics are better. Blizzard are a stubborn and average design team. Things will not get better than WOL or HOTS if they don't become a lot more humble. They seriously need to start learning from their mistakes, start making bigger changes, start listening to the general consensus and stop pretending that they're actually communicating openly and honestly with the community.
For SC2 yes, but vultures were super "jerky" in BW. His unit seems reminiscent of a vulture.
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On June 01 2015 12:11 FabledIntegral wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2015 06:25 winsonsonho wrote:On June 01 2015 03:20 RoomOfMush wrote:On June 01 2015 02:18 winsonsonho wrote: I don't understand how people are looking past the fact that the Cyclone can move and shoot at the same time. Blizzard tried it with the Diamondback and that was ridiculous, why are they trying to implement it again? I still think it doesn't belong on the Phoenix, but at least it is somewhat passable to a small degree on a flying unit that has a limited role. It takes away any real skill required in using a units movement and attack characteristics together. Please take a look at the Storm Hawk from my SC2 mod CustomCraft: + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8hIKJUyyI_w this unit can move and shoot, but only at targets right in front of it. In addition to that its range is fairly limited. This makes micro pretty intense in my opinion as you have to time your movement just right. If you watch the video you will see how I screw the micro up big time, my Storm Hawks keep shooting at protoss buildings instead of the Zealots because my timings are all wrong. Maybe you might think that moving shot is not that bad if implemented in a different way, what do you say? That does make it a little more skill intensive but not enough in my opinion. And that movement just looked too jerky, I got somewhat Storm Hawk car sick ;P With moving shots a unit will always shoot at its highest rate if it is within shooting distance. This means that the players skill in switching between shooting and moving will always be below optimal for a non moving shot unit. The better the player can control the unit the closer it is to shooting at its optimal rate, so a better player can always get that little extra out. Your idea is a hybrid, and I think there is no reason to have any sort of moving shot in a competitive RTS just for the sake of diversity. Blizzard mostly likes to do things their way and try totally new 'cool' things. That's great sometimes but often simple, strong and proven mechanics are better. Blizzard are a stubborn and average design team. Things will not get better than WOL or HOTS if they don't become a lot more humble. They seriously need to start learning from their mistakes, start making bigger changes, start listening to the general consensus and stop pretending that they're actually communicating openly and honestly with the community. For SC2 yes, but vultures were super "jerky" in BW. His unit seems reminiscent of a vulture.
I think it's those lights in the front and how it shoots that makes it look super jerky. Vultures are easier on my eyes..
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I just got into beta... how do cyclones fair against mutas?
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cyclones anihilate mutas (and anything else than lings really) if they have space to micro. But the problem is the tech to cyclone anti-air is way too long to get in time for the usual muta harass.
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I don't get the Cyclone. Is it meant for early game or mid game? I don't see it viable in any area right now.
TvT = bad, marines & tanks are better TvP = bad, Protoss goes air, you are dead or at least taking heavy damage TvZ = bad, Lib + MMM is better
The only thing I could see it work is the early game in TvP if it could attack air. I'm curious if any Pros will actually use this unit.
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hopefully this next patch they will let the cyclone shoot up out of the factory and terrans wont lose 12 workers to an oracle any more. TvZ and TvT they seem to be more of a late game unit that is complimented by mines; if they can shoot up out of the factory maybe you can start accumulating them earlier and use mines to keep them alive until you hit more of a critical number and they trade more efficiently.
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Cyclone is still able to shoot air? I vaguely remember that in a patch BLZ removed that.
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I would reduce its effectiveness vs ground in general. I think it will fit in mech nicely that way. The ability to hit hard from long range and moving at the same time on ground is too much. Its ground weapon need to just be average.
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On May 31 2015 00:52 Gaskal wrote: This just makes me miss Goliaths more
Sorry, Goliath was slain by David.
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I find it bit iffy that lurkers are better than it was in BW statwise and have no friendly fire and burrows extremely quickly yet tanks aren't getting as much love and isn't really that great in lotv :/
Cyclone lock on should be air only imo. Autoattack for ground only and lockon for air.
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On July 22 2015 13:59 jinjin5000 wrote: I find it bit iffy that lurkers are better than it was in BW statwise and have no friendly fire and burrows extremely quickly yet tanks aren't getting as much love and isn't really that great in lotv :/
Cyclone lock on should be air only imo. Autoattack for ground only and lockon for air.
It's bad against mass T1 units, and it takes high APM to kite without taking significant damage because you have to manage other units while kiting.
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As if mech terran recquire a lot of apms... Seriously, this unit is a cancer. It isn't hard at all to micro them. You guys aren't simply used to them yet...
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I really don't like that the Cyclone is so all around with that much range and can kite for a long time even until faster units have caught up to it. What seems to happen in the lategame is that Terrans have some fortified positions (with tanks and liberators and Thors and PFs, Turrets) and just keep falling back to them with Cyclone/Hellion. Since the Cyclone/Hellion itself is already very deadly against most things in the game - and combined with having to fight presieged/fortified positions it becomes nearly impossible with the usual units - the only way to win seems to be by massing casters and long range yourself.
Talking TvZ specifically, if the Cyclone stays like that the way to play antiMech ZvT is going to be mass Swarm Hosts (the strong LotV ones) in the lategame again. It's the only unit that cannot be endlessly kited or gets roasted by hellions and brings enough range to the table to reasonably damage Cyclones. This is obviously also a problem with the swarm host which is currently a really efficient unit in LotV again.
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On July 22 2015 13:59 jinjin5000 wrote: I find it bit iffy that lurkers are better than it was in BW statwise and have no friendly fire and burrows extremely quickly yet tanks aren't getting as much love and isn't really that great in lotv :/
Cyclone lock on should be air only imo. Autoattack for ground only and lockon for air. Lurker are X times worse than their are in Brood War. Tanks outrange them, tanks are more mobil, cyclines outrange them, liberator outrange them. Bio is better in EVERY way. More mobile, more beefy. I havent seen a single pro match won with lurker. And even on ladder they are highly situational. Lurker stayed pretty much the same, besides being later due to hydra lair tech. And about the Cyclone: Its just a boring kite unit. It doesnt require much micro, it just requires attention. Terran should get somothing decent on their Raven.
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