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I like the current Lurker. The Ravager is dead, of course next it would be the Lurker's range.
My ZvZ are more fun and better than the HOTS Roach vs Roach wars. Lurkers are now used to get positional advantages and allow you to transition into higher tier units like Ultras or Viper. Please for once allow Zerg to have ONE cost effective unit.
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On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san! Sniper buff please
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On May 09 2015 08:11 AssyrianKing wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san! Sniper buff please
I hardly think Lurker play can be chalked up to, "crappy chipping away from a screen away" even at 9 range. A huge problem with Zerg design in general is they are all melee units with ranged units being inherently more beneficial to micro/possessing a higher skill ceiling in almost all situations.
A snipe buff to deal with Ultralisks (which I'm sorry to say are laughably overpowered, I want Zerg to be strong not bio to go extinct from an a move unit being overbuffed) is by far the best way to go. The Ghost needs an excuse to be in late game ZvT bio, it along with the Infestor are pitifully underused in the match up and in just as much need of buffs/redesigns as the Cyclone and the Disruptor.
Protoss shouldn't be the only race that can field reliable and strong mid-late game spell casters. Then again Protoss shouldn't be the race with the worst tier 1 units in the game by far but one problem a time I guess.
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On May 09 2015 09:01 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 08:11 AssyrianKing wrote:On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san! Sniper buff please I hardly think Lurker play can be chalked up to, "crappy chipping away from a screen away" even at 9 range. A huge problem with Zerg design in general is they are all melee units with ranged units being inherently more beneficial to micro/possessing a higher skill ceiling in almost all situations. A snipe buff to deal with Ultralisks (which I'm sorry to say are laughably overpowered, I want Zerg to be strong not bio to go extinct from an a move unit being overbuffed) is by far the best way to go. The Ghost needs an excuse to be in late game ZvT bio, it along with the Infestor are pitifully underused in the match up and in just as much need of buffs/redesigns as the Cyclone and the Disruptor. Protoss shouldn't be the only race that can field reliable and strong mid-late game spell casters. Then again Protoss shouldn't be the race with the worst tier 1 units in the game by far but one problem a time I guess. Snipe buff to deal with ultralisks is a laughably broken solution. If snipe counters ultralisks, that means snipe can kill Zergs tankiest unit from a range greater or equal to any zerg unit. Hence it can counter EVERY zerg unit like that. The only restriction being click-speed, which is no restriction since the rapidfire hotkey trick exists - which people didn't use back in the days when Snipe was already overpowered because it countered too many zerg techs. With rapidfire a trained player could even take out huge amounts of banelings before they connected if snipe did >=30damage to bio.
Oh, and Protoss has far better T1 units than zerg. Might want to check on Sentry/Stalker demolishing zerg players these days, even if they go for for necessary higher tier units like hydralisks. Zergs and Terrans would get absolutly demolished by Protoss T1 units if they didn't rush out higher tech units to deal with Protoss gateway units.
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On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote: Snipe buff to deal with ultralisks is a laughably broken solution. If snipe counters ultralisks, that means snipe can kill Zergs tankiest unit from a range greater or equal to any zerg unit. Hence it can counter EVERY zerg unit like that. The only restriction being click-speed, which is no restriction since the rapidfire hotkey trick exists - which people didn't use back in the days when Snipe was already overpowered because it countered too many zerg techs. With rapidfire a trained player could even take out huge amounts of banelings before they connected if snipe did >=30damage to bio.
Oh, and Protoss has far better T1 units than zerg. Might want to check on Sentry/Stalker demolishing zerg players these days, even if they go for for necessary higher tier units like hydralisks. Zergs and Terrans would get absolutly demolished by Protoss T1 units if they didn't rush out higher tech units to deal with Protoss gateway units.
Zerglings, Banes, Roaches and Hydras are all cheaper than Protos units. And resource-wise, they are all more cost efficient, and have good upgrades earlier. 4 Zerglings > 1 Zealot 5 Roaches (speed upgrade)> 3Stalkers
"Tier" is a question of time delays when comparing the 3 basic gateway units to the 4 basic Zerg units (Yes, hydras are basic, only delayed in time to balance early AA and timings, since they cost less than a stalker) since their costs and efficiency are on par. And zerg has a fairly easier time expanding and prducing units That asymetrical balance leads to FF as a compensatory measure for Protoss.
The problem there is how FF plays out ,but also, and more important, the lack of true Midgame units from Zerg other than Mutas and good strategies that provide treasy transitionigs as Protoss has. Spire units have very specific purposes.
Protoss have a fairly better transition into mid-midlategamegame with Sentry-based plays (the gas cost makes heavy FF strategies a true midgame option), Immortals, Warp prism, and sometimes some Phoenixes, and can transition relatively easily intp HT or Colossus.
Zerg lacks of progression in terms of diversity and strategies compared to Protoss. You have to try to gain advantage of your supperior econ forcing trades of your 3 low-cost units (lingroach hydra), trying to beat an army that has a good caster support and can use it to split your oubviously outnumbering force. The problem is that as long as the game progresses, Protoss gets stronger units that can counter your basic army, and the almost the only solution for Zerg is to try to win bruteforce and tech heavily for lategame units (Infestor, Viper, Ultras) as your basic army doesnt scalate that well into game. Zerg lacks of good control/defensive units to delay the Protooss while you go into Hive plays. So that teching doesn't really provide flexible transitionig strategies other than Infestor support, which usually hurt your true intentions as you want to save gas for Ultras, Vipers or even BL.
The effective removal of the SH as a direct combat unit has hurt Zerg options vs Protoss, as it offered a good transition point. SwarmHost forced Colos and HT in high numbers or air switch (forced the Protoss to tech itself towards lategame army) while the Zerg was given the opportunity to transition to Hive and adapt to the Protoss reaction (air style or pure AoE deathball). Effectively, the Zerg teching process of InfestationPit>Hive>Ultras + Great Spire was smooth.
In most cases, SH forced both players to tech to almost every tech in the game. Protoss almost needed their complete tech tree (Stargate units, Colossus, HT + gateway) to deal with SH plays, and Zerg needed almost all their tech(Spire,Infestors, Vipers and Ultras) to beat Protoss lategame.
In LotV, this problem will be aliviated with Ravagers and Lurkers and pssoibly some readjusted SH, offering more dynamics and flexibility, specially in the midgame.
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On May 09 2015 09:50 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 09:01 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 09 2015 08:11 AssyrianKing wrote:On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san! Sniper buff please I hardly think Lurker play can be chalked up to, "crappy chipping away from a screen away" even at 9 range. A huge problem with Zerg design in general is they are all melee units with ranged units being inherently more beneficial to micro/possessing a higher skill ceiling in almost all situations. A snipe buff to deal with Ultralisks (which I'm sorry to say are laughably overpowered, I want Zerg to be strong not bio to go extinct from an a move unit being overbuffed) is by far the best way to go. The Ghost needs an excuse to be in late game ZvT bio, it along with the Infestor are pitifully underused in the match up and in just as much need of buffs/redesigns as the Cyclone and the Disruptor. Protoss shouldn't be the only race that can field reliable and strong mid-late game spell casters. Then again Protoss shouldn't be the race with the worst tier 1 units in the game by far but one problem a time I guess. Snipe buff to deal with ultralisks is a laughably broken solution. If snipe counters ultralisks, that means snipe can kill Zergs tankiest unit from a range greater or equal to any zerg unit. Hence it can counter EVERY zerg unit like that. The only restriction being click-speed, which is no restriction since the rapidfire hotkey trick exists - which people didn't use back in the days when Snipe was already overpowered because it countered too many zerg techs. With rapidfire a trained player could even take out huge amounts of banelings before they connected if snipe did >=30damage to bio. Oh, and Protoss has far better T1 units than zerg. Might want to check on Sentry/Stalker demolishing zerg players these days, even if they go for for necessary higher tier units like hydralisks. Zergs and Terrans would get absolutly demolished by Protoss T1 units if they didn't rush out higher tech units to deal with Protoss gateway units.
Pray tell why would a snipe buff vs Ultras be broken? I'm hardly saying we should buff snipe back to the way it was previously, that was just OP as hell and everyone knows it. I'm recommending a not broken version of snipe, maybe something like reducing armor with a piercing shot? Maybe a crippling shot that makes it move slower for a short amount of time? I don't know, Ghosts just suck in TvZ and since Infestors already suck in general it just doesn't much sense to leave the spell caster side of the match up totally gimped.
And no they don't, I'm not even a Protoss player to know that. Zergs are getting wrecked because the metagame shifts and or new abusive flavor of the months are always harsh towards Zerg and thanks to David for taking away a vital anti death ball tool (whether we as a community despised the unit or not it WAS necessary in later game ZvP to zone out High Templar which are 10X the issue then Stalkers) and completely not compensating for it with appropriate buffs.
Oh sorry, I forgot Blinding Cloud got more range, which is more of a buff vs. mech then late game Protoss armies with Templars feedbacking/instakilling Vipers or simply...moving out of the cloud O__o
Back on topic though, buff snipe to combat Ultras and make Ghosts a part of the match up. Don't buff Ghosts and make them OP vs. Zerg lol
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On May 09 2015 10:37 Beelzebub1 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 09:50 Big J wrote:On May 09 2015 09:01 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 09 2015 08:11 AssyrianKing wrote:On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san! Sniper buff please I hardly think Lurker play can be chalked up to, "crappy chipping away from a screen away" even at 9 range. A huge problem with Zerg design in general is they are all melee units with ranged units being inherently more beneficial to micro/possessing a higher skill ceiling in almost all situations. A snipe buff to deal with Ultralisks (which I'm sorry to say are laughably overpowered, I want Zerg to be strong not bio to go extinct from an a move unit being overbuffed) is by far the best way to go. The Ghost needs an excuse to be in late game ZvT bio, it along with the Infestor are pitifully underused in the match up and in just as much need of buffs/redesigns as the Cyclone and the Disruptor. Protoss shouldn't be the only race that can field reliable and strong mid-late game spell casters. Then again Protoss shouldn't be the race with the worst tier 1 units in the game by far but one problem a time I guess. Snipe buff to deal with ultralisks is a laughably broken solution. If snipe counters ultralisks, that means snipe can kill Zergs tankiest unit from a range greater or equal to any zerg unit. Hence it can counter EVERY zerg unit like that. The only restriction being click-speed, which is no restriction since the rapidfire hotkey trick exists - which people didn't use back in the days when Snipe was already overpowered because it countered too many zerg techs. With rapidfire a trained player could even take out huge amounts of banelings before they connected if snipe did >=30damage to bio. Oh, and Protoss has far better T1 units than zerg. Might want to check on Sentry/Stalker demolishing zerg players these days, even if they go for for necessary higher tier units like hydralisks. Zergs and Terrans would get absolutly demolished by Protoss T1 units if they didn't rush out higher tech units to deal with Protoss gateway units. Pray tell why would a snipe buff vs Ultras be broken? I'm hardly saying we should buff snipe back to the way it was previously, that was just OP as hell and everyone knows it. I'm recommending a not broken version of snipe, maybe something like reducing armor with a piercing shot? Maybe a crippling shot that makes it move slower for a short amount of time? I don't know, Ghosts just suck in TvZ and since Infestors already suck in general it just doesn't much sense to leave the spell caster side of the match up totally gimped. And no they don't, I'm not even a Protoss player to know that. Zergs are getting wrecked because the metagame shifts and or new abusive flavor of the months are always harsh towards Zerg and thanks to David for taking away a vital anti death ball tool (whether we as a community despised the unit or not it WAS necessary in later game ZvP to zone out High Templar which are 10X the issue then Stalkers) and completely not compensating for it with appropriate buffs. Oh sorry, I forgot Blinding Cloud got more range, which is more of a buff vs. mech then late game Protoss armies with Templars feedbacking/instakilling Vipers or simply...moving out of the cloud O__o Back on topic though, buff snipe to combat Ultras and make Ghosts a part of the match up. Don't buff Ghosts and make them OP vs. Zerg lol
Well, if your suggestion is a redesign of snipe and not some rather simple buff, I appologize. But I think you need to come up with a specific suggestions, if you go into the wilds of design changes.
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On May 08 2015 22:27 Masq wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 22:22 Merkmerk wrote: I have to lol at Terran players who insist on their playstyle being viable - "bio doesn't work!!" - so?
Bio didn't work against Protoss at all in BW TvZ Bio is pretty iconic though.
TvZ Bio can still work though, getting hydras into lurkers takes time and is an investment. It's not like zerg just suddenly has them and they're suddenly in range of the Bio and suddenly the bio is dead. There's a whole lot of variables Terran can influence.
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On May 09 2015 00:20 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Lurkers were not often used in ZvZ during brood war days. Only a select few scenarios and games ever saw this.
ZvZ was always Muta/Ling which in turn became Muta/ling/bling or now Roach/Hydra (Roach/Ravager in lotv).
well no not really because of the update recently its now ling/bane early into either Mutas or Roach/Hydra/(optional) Ravanger. I guess Ravangers lost some effectiveness but after that its Ultras, lurkers or Brood lords. starts out simple gets complicated lool
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On May 09 2015 12:14 Rukis wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 00:20 FT.aCt)Sony wrote: Lurkers were not often used in ZvZ during brood war days. Only a select few scenarios and games ever saw this.
ZvZ was always Muta/Ling which in turn became Muta/ling/bling or now Roach/Hydra (Roach/Ravager in lotv). well no not really because of the update recently its now ling/bane early into either Mutas or Roach/Hydra/(optional) Ravanger. I guess Ravangers lost some effectiveness but after that its Ultras, lurkers or Brood lords. starts out simple gets complicated lool
Was referencing BW's reasoning of Lurkers.
Muta/Ling was Bw. WoL/Hots was Muta/ling/bling or Roach/Hydra (which in LOTV is now Roach/Ravager from what I have seen).
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On May 09 2015 11:01 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 09 2015 10:37 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 09 2015 09:50 Big J wrote:On May 09 2015 09:01 Beelzebub1 wrote:On May 09 2015 08:11 AssyrianKing wrote:On May 07 2015 15:38 Cascade wrote:I think the lurker goes against what I want zerg to be in general, mainly due to its large range. I want zerg to be more of a in-your-face melee range race that runs up to and over enemy armies, rather than this crappy chipping away from a screen away. ZvT-bio is doing that really well, and I think many agree that that matchup is the most entertaining game-play in sc2. The new ultra completely killing bio in TvZ kindof ruins that aspect. I'd like to give terran a late-game (make it expensive to tech to, like the ultras) long ranged unit from the barracks that maybe not hard-counters, but at least can handle ultras, so that we can maintain the ZvBio from HotS, with a more varied T3 stage with the new T unit. And no, the cyclone doesn't fit that at all. So give zerg more useful melee units instead of more ranged units, and balance around that. pretty pl0x, tyvm Blizzard-san! Sniper buff please I hardly think Lurker play can be chalked up to, "crappy chipping away from a screen away" even at 9 range. A huge problem with Zerg design in general is they are all melee units with ranged units being inherently more beneficial to micro/possessing a higher skill ceiling in almost all situations. A snipe buff to deal with Ultralisks (which I'm sorry to say are laughably overpowered, I want Zerg to be strong not bio to go extinct from an a move unit being overbuffed) is by far the best way to go. The Ghost needs an excuse to be in late game ZvT bio, it along with the Infestor are pitifully underused in the match up and in just as much need of buffs/redesigns as the Cyclone and the Disruptor. Protoss shouldn't be the only race that can field reliable and strong mid-late game spell casters. Then again Protoss shouldn't be the race with the worst tier 1 units in the game by far but one problem a time I guess. Snipe buff to deal with ultralisks is a laughably broken solution. If snipe counters ultralisks, that means snipe can kill Zergs tankiest unit from a range greater or equal to any zerg unit. Hence it can counter EVERY zerg unit like that. The only restriction being click-speed, which is no restriction since the rapidfire hotkey trick exists - which people didn't use back in the days when Snipe was already overpowered because it countered too many zerg techs. With rapidfire a trained player could even take out huge amounts of banelings before they connected if snipe did >=30damage to bio. Oh, and Protoss has far better T1 units than zerg. Might want to check on Sentry/Stalker demolishing zerg players these days, even if they go for for necessary higher tier units like hydralisks. Zergs and Terrans would get absolutly demolished by Protoss T1 units if they didn't rush out higher tech units to deal with Protoss gateway units. Pray tell why would a snipe buff vs Ultras be broken? I'm hardly saying we should buff snipe back to the way it was previously, that was just OP as hell and everyone knows it. I'm recommending a not broken version of snipe, maybe something like reducing armor with a piercing shot? Maybe a crippling shot that makes it move slower for a short amount of time? I don't know, Ghosts just suck in TvZ and since Infestors already suck in general it just doesn't much sense to leave the spell caster side of the match up totally gimped. And no they don't, I'm not even a Protoss player to know that. Zergs are getting wrecked because the metagame shifts and or new abusive flavor of the months are always harsh towards Zerg and thanks to David for taking away a vital anti death ball tool (whether we as a community despised the unit or not it WAS necessary in later game ZvP to zone out High Templar which are 10X the issue then Stalkers) and completely not compensating for it with appropriate buffs. Oh sorry, I forgot Blinding Cloud got more range, which is more of a buff vs. mech then late game Protoss armies with Templars feedbacking/instakilling Vipers or simply...moving out of the cloud O__o Back on topic though, buff snipe to combat Ultras and make Ghosts a part of the match up. Don't buff Ghosts and make them OP vs. Zerg lol Well, if your suggestion is a redesign of snipe and not some rather simple buff, I appologize. But I think you need to come up with a specific suggestions, if you go into the wilds of design changes.
No need to apologize, I took no offense. I just don't pretend I know enough to offer an actual solid Ghost buff vs. Zerg for balanced and dynamic late game scenarios. As I said vs the Ultralisks maybe something along the lines of an armor destroying shot or something to immobile it?
Not too sure, just would like to see some spell casting brought into TvZ.
On May 09 2015 11:09 KeksX wrote:Show nested quote +On May 08 2015 22:27 Masq wrote:On May 08 2015 22:22 Merkmerk wrote: I have to lol at Terran players who insist on their playstyle being viable - "bio doesn't work!!" - so?
Bio didn't work against Protoss at all in BW TvZ Bio is pretty iconic though. TvZ Bio can still work though, getting hydras into lurkers takes time and is an investment. It's not like zerg just suddenly has them and they're suddenly in range of the Bio and suddenly the bio is dead. There's a whole lot of variables Terran can influence.
+1 Terran needs more time to explore counter measures before nerfs, it's not like the unit doesn't have any weaknesses. Beyond the substantial investment both in time and resources the tech path is pretty easily scouted out. After that well positioned tank lines, drops, and air play just in general are all very strong vs. Lurker compositions. Korean Terrans I'm sure will have very little issue not allowing their bio to get massacred by running into Lurker lines.
On top of Lurkers maybe or maybe not being OP which time will ultimately tell, attention needs to be focused on other areas in the beta, at least the Lurker is a high micro high skill cap unit that opens up strategies in all 3 match ups, soe of the other units in the Beta are just awful design wise.
We should focus our attention to removing siege tank drop, reworking Immortals to make them and their ability not suck, make Gateway (or the units whatever is easier) good, focus on redesigning or tweaking the Cyclone and Disruptor to be actually good units, and fine tuning the adepts stats and abilities.
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I haven't played in LOTV yet so I haven't experienced the SC2 lurker yet, but I can see how they may feel immobile and not zerg-like. To me, the way to fix this would be to reduce their range a little (maybe 7) and give them faster move speed and burrow times. This way, they still out range standard ranged units like stalkers, but are able to move with your army better than say a siege tank can.
I agree that in general zerg just isn't as mobile a swarm-like as in BW, other then lings which just melt facing almost any army by themselves. I think the major reason for this is the changes that were made to hydras in SC2. I wish they would give us back the less lethal hydra that is cheaper and costs 1 supply and change roaches to be more of a tank unit for absorbing tank damage and what not.
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I feel like there's no real definition of what "zerg like" is.
For me, lurkers are just as race defining as zerglings and mutalisks. It makes sense to keep their original design even in SC2.
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On May 10 2015 00:13 ApBuLLet wrote: I haven't played in LOTV yet so I haven't experienced the SC2 lurker yet, but I can see how they may feel immobile and not zerg-like. To me, the way to fix this would be to reduce their range a little (maybe 7) and give them faster move speed and burrow times. This way, they still out range standard ranged units like stalkers, but are able to move with your army better than say a siege tank can.
I agree that in general zerg just isn't as mobile a swarm-like as in BW, other then lings which just melt facing almost any army by themselves. I think the major reason for this is the changes that were made to hydras in SC2. I wish they would give us back the less lethal hydra that is cheaper and costs 1 supply and change roaches to be more of a tank unit for absorbing tank damage and what not.
The burrow time is what makes the lurker a defensive unit and creates the actual engagements. Delete the burrow time and it deletes the micro interactions. Absolute worst thing they can do to fix. i'd rather just see a range reduction altogether and make them easier to obtain, cheaper units is better for zerg.
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Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz
User was warned for this post
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On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz
"There are tons of ways to break it, I just won't name any of them because I can't think of anything reliable".
Are people seriously defending overpowered units in an early beta just so they can get a couple of free wins in unranked games? That's just pathetic.
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The only thing i dislike about the lurker is the sound of the attcack. It sounds like a sweet caress coverr by smooth jazz music. It should be : "MOTHERFUCKING SPIKES OF DEATH".
For what i tested lurker is really long to make but is strong as fuck (especially ZvZ).
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On May 10 2015 19:08 xyzz wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz "There are tons of ways to break it, I just won't name any of them because I can't think of anything reliable". Are people seriously defending overpowered units in an early beta just so they can get a couple of free wins in unranked games? That's just pathetic.
Uhh if your opponent actually goes over 3 bases you can easily outmanouvre him if you are the better player. Also Nydus and broodlords are a really viable option vs lurker players. Actually Ultra armies can also be extremely powerful at cleaning up small amounts of lurkers. But I guess it's too hard for people like you to come up with stuff to try and break them. Turtleling is really not that effective if you actually want more then 3/4 bases
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On May 10 2015 20:34 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 19:08 xyzz wrote:On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz "There are tons of ways to break it, I just won't name any of them because I can't think of anything reliable". Are people seriously defending overpowered units in an early beta just so they can get a couple of free wins in unranked games? That's just pathetic. Uhh if your opponent actually goes over 3 bases you can easily outmanouvre him if you are the better player. Also Nydus and broodlords are a really viable option vs lurker players. Actually Ultra armies can also be extremely powerful at cleaning up small amounts of lurkers. But I guess it's too hard for people like you to come up with stuff to try and break them. Turtleling is really not that effective if you actually want more then 3/4 bases I think I have only lost a single ZvZ in which I was allowed to safely go mutalisks against an opponent who opened ground, because from there I can just go lurkers and win. People have gotten fairly creative, but air control + lurkers is pretty good a denying everything. I think the overpoweredness of the lurker will push everyone into mutalisk openings, so the matchup will go to shit if blizzard doesn't patch it, because it will be back to muta wars everygame. Though that is as much a problem with the mutalisk, as with the lurker I guess.
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On May 10 2015 20:54 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 10 2015 20:34 mCon.Hephaistas wrote:On May 10 2015 19:08 xyzz wrote:On May 10 2015 15:55 mCon.Hephaistas wrote: Please don't touch the lurker yet, you can't turtle on 3 bases like a faggot anymore. There are tons of ways to break it, just wait it out a little. Anyway I've been looking forward to a unit since WoL that can actually trade cost efficient vs terran and protoss armies without the need of free units Reducing their range to 7 like some people suggest makes them useless like the ravager zz "There are tons of ways to break it, I just won't name any of them because I can't think of anything reliable". Are people seriously defending overpowered units in an early beta just so they can get a couple of free wins in unranked games? That's just pathetic. Uhh if your opponent actually goes over 3 bases you can easily outmanouvre him if you are the better player. Also Nydus and broodlords are a really viable option vs lurker players. Actually Ultra armies can also be extremely powerful at cleaning up small amounts of lurkers. But I guess it's too hard for people like you to come up with stuff to try and break them. Turtleling is really not that effective if you actually want more then 3/4 bases I think I have only lost a single ZvZ in which I was allowed to safely go mutalisks against an opponent who opened ground, because from there I can just go lurkers and win. People have gotten fairly creative, but air control + lurkers is pretty good a denying everything. I think the overpoweredness of the lurker will push everyone into mutalisk openings, so the matchup will go to shit if blizzard doesn't patch it, because it will be back to muta wars everygame. Though that is as much a problem with the mutalisk, as with the lurker I guess.
Yeah but even in hots opening mutas into SH was extremely strong in that case. But in pro games everyone opened roach anyway, because roach timings are actually really strong and hard to not take damage from as mutalisk player. Anyway there is no Metagame and no really good players are playing the beta, it's too early to say mutas into lurkers can't be punished. Also i think the ravager will get a buff again soon aswell, since it just has become useless since the last patch, and that will play a key role in zvz pressure aswell
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