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On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 13:39 Piledriver wrote:On May 01 2015 11:04 MotherOfRunes wrote:On May 01 2015 08:10 Piledriver wrote:On April 30 2015 15:53 FHDH wrote:On April 30 2015 15:33 bagels21 wrote:On April 30 2015 14:57 FHDH wrote: Yeah all of the things you mentioned are definitely trivial to implement and the increase in prize pools and player salaries definitely means there is that much more money to throw around on accommodations.
Shorter EternalEnvy: I can't manage to release iconic players from my team with dignity and professionalism but I expect every tournament to have solved every difficult problem in putting on a big LAN, because that's way easier. I hope you're just trolling the guy earlier who brought up NSs screen whine because you're doing the exact same thing he did. The problem with a lot of criticism thrown EEs way right now(here, on the blog thread before Aui intervened, and especially on reddit) is that almost all the arguments are straw men that exaggerate his claims or ad hominem attacks on his personal attributes or writing style I mean it seems like you agree that these things are doable, and if that's the case why not. It would probably be best if ee did this behind closed doors but I think it's been tried. Also a large portion of the blog was just him stream of conscious discussing random stuff that was nonetheless informative (mtw drama with tobi/mouz stream rev - remember own3d lol) I disagree with the volume/pitch of a lot of whines in this category from a lot of players AND I think Eternal Envy is a poor spokesperson for professionalism AND I don't buy the accusations of hypocrisy from NS based on what people have presented. Internet Arguing 101 says "accuse people of ad hominem whenever possible" but it's not automatically invalid to discuss the messenger. Does Envy's lack of professionalism mean he can't be right about TOs? No, obviously not. But he's less likely to because he has no fucking clue what it's like trying to meet the expectations he seems to have. No clue. There is always room for improvement in TOs and criticism should go to this end (unless the organizers are straight crooked or otherwise insincere in their attempt to put on a good tournament). Some LANs have LOTS of room for improvement even with the REALITY of what people want and what can be done taken into account. But the fact that the way that this is approached is frequently wrong is true. Envy can take some fucking time to format his goddamned posts rather than just drop his words from heaven and expect that people will wade through it because he is Envy (very professional of him). It's also true that there is a rising tide of players who are getting a little sick of the prima-donna-level expectations of some of these players who take a childish attitude about shit getting fucked up. Henry Rollins: Listen to the stage manager and get on stage when they tell you to. No one has time for the rock star act. None of the techs backstage care if you're David Bowie or the milkman. When you act like a jerk, they are completely unimpressed with the infantile display that you might think comes with your dubious status. They were there hours before you building the stage, and they will be there hours after you leave tearing it down. They should get your salary, and you should get theirs. Does this perfectly apply? No. But it does apply. And it's going to apply more and more without reality checks from inside the pro player community. What a bunch of irrelevant, asinine bullshit. NS (and in general some pro player's responses) can be summarized as - "Hey look at how hard we had, so fuck you for wanting better". Its almost on the same level as Marco demanding respect because he, quote , "went to prison.". Absolute third rate logic. Not even one of the things Envy mentioned are directly related to his personal comfort. Every single thing goes towards directly improving the standards and quality of the tournament. Oh look, he wants a restroom that is not swarmed by fans when he goes to the restroom during the middle of a BO3, how blue blooded of him. Witness his greed as he asks for a better practice area, because fuck practice right guys? Look at his temerity for demanding better noise cancellation and sound setup. God forbid he ask for pre-arranged, professional translators. Burn the heretic. because these things didn't exist in the past and status quo is the best way forward amirite ? Lets excuse all this incompetent, poorly planned bullshit from organizers and blame Envy instead because he isn't exactly Shakespeare when it comes to writing blogs. Teams will be more than willing to accept a prize pool reduced by 15-20k dollars as long as these things are taken care of. They will be more than happy to. But hey lets forgo all the logic and reasoning, because fuck Envy of course. if i read most of your statement, its you using 3 rate logic (just to use your words) you exaggerate everything to a level that is simply ridiculous :D ? Wut? Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way ---> Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post.
Distasteful comment.
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Some tournaments have issues that don't should happen (Network, PC's, Delays, incompetent staff, Sound issues...).
Some Players have expectations that seem a bit over the top (specific translator for each Team? Are you 5 year olds that need a babysitter or what? Seperate bathroom? If the venue allows it, sure... But if not thats hardly blameworthy. Catering? Just bring your own Food.. WTF...)
Your a Dota Player, not Madonna...
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Agree a 100%, especially if you think how lucky some of these people are.
(Just like sports) you are being paid to play what you love the most, and most of all ? You are succesful ! (And the pay is not wvwn bad)... thats a luxury only a handful of people have, but some just dont realize it.
I mean Starladder even had to move to another country (!) and they even have to pay the planes and stuff ffs
And by the way... I may be wrong, but i think it should be the teams themself that pays the travels and hotels, NOT THE TOURNAMENT !
EE should cry to Cloud9 about hotels and stuff, not starladder.
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On May 01 2015 21:03 Faruko wrote: Agree a 100%, especially if you think how lucky some of these people are.
(Just like sports) you are being paid to play what you love the most, and most of all ? You are succesful ! (And the pay is not wvwn bad)... thats a luxury only a handful of people have, but some just dont realize it.
I mean Starladder even had to move to another country (!) and they even have to pay the planes and stuff ffs
And by the way... I may be wrong, but i think it should be the teams themself that pays the travels and hotels, NOT THE TOURNAMENT !
EE should cry to Cloud9 about hotels and stuff, not starladder.
that was the case 3 years ago but there was little reason for teams to get 5 players across the globe, so lans were scarce and often filled with last minute local teams or even random stacks. it might be different now though.
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On May 01 2015 21:03 Faruko wrote: Agree a 100%, especially if you think how lucky some of these people are.
(Just like sports) you are being paid to play what you love the most, and most of all ? You are succesful ! (And the pay is not wvwn bad)... thats a luxury only a handful of people have, but some just dont realize it.
I mean Starladder even had to move to another country (!) and they even have to pay the planes and stuff ffs
And by the way... I may be wrong, but i think it should be the teams themself that pays the travels and hotels, NOT THE TOURNAMENT !
EE should cry to Cloud9 about hotels and stuff, not starladder.
EE said starladder was fine...
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On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. no ty, i tell it like it is. you dont like it thats your problem, dont give me your life story
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On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds.
Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time.
Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots.
Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him)
Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. The posts are blogs and that's his style. These aren't longform articles posted on C9's website. It's his style and he came up through TL posting that way (you can look up his old posts) If anything it's a wink to who he once was.
Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense(EE should be bitching behind closed doors), but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). More professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. You might not think he's the best spokesperson for what he believes in but these tournaments clearly care and so do other players and organizers. Their has been real change every time he's posted (remember BTS before his critical comments and then their performance afterwards). I-League before and after his comments etc.
Let's limit the mud flinging
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On May 02 2015 05:46 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time. Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots. Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him) Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense, but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). Some professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. Yes, I'm here because it's moderated here and I like that, not because I need that. The implication was that I don't have the balls to say anything against Envy out where people are reading it because I'm afraid of teh flamez or something which is actually super-hilarious if you know me at all, on or offline.
And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice:
1) When someone was talking trash to me and I talked trash back and shit got REAL SENSITIVE all of a sudden and I didn't back down because I underestimated what babies some people are about Envy-kun.
2) When someone misread something I said as calling Envy autistic, which is a myth that will never die I guess despite it standing up to basically no scrutiny. But I don't blame the mod for doing that since I'd rather they have a trigger finger about all the autism bullshit than having that idiocy all over these boards.
And I've said a LOT more about Envy than that around here, as anyone who follows me around the board being mad I'm saying anything about Envy (read: a lot of people apparently) knows. So don't blow up my Envy-related interactions with the mods into something that it isn't.
I'm not saying Envy is dumb. I'm saying he's a shitty writer, and I've said before, and will say again, that until he takes his communication seriously anything legitimate he has to say is going to be reduced in impact because of how he says it and what context he puts it in.
Example: when I saw there was a new Envy Posts About A Tournament post I groaned a little. Not because ewwwww, Eternal Envy is taking up bits on the internet, how will I survive this -- I can just not read it. I groaned because I knew I'd want to read it but he's a shitty writer with a poor filter ("stream-of-consciousness" is SPOT ON) and it was going to be a chore. A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have.
Once you get through the unedited word salad, that is.
People attacking his writing has a purpose. Anyone who thinks tournaments are perfect or that nothing Envy writes is worth reading can fuck themselves. But his terrible editing combined with his lack of perspective makes it other people's jobs to dig through all his observations and make some kind of point out of it and figure out what's actually important. Anyone who knows anything about persuasive writing knows how terrible this is for the purpose of actually improving the scene.
I don't like Envy. I make no bones about it. I laugh at sadenvy.gif in its various iterations. I take amusement in him living up to his reputation in games even when I'm rooting for his team. But so what? His fans need to calm the fuck down about it every time I post about him. I'm not the guy dropping into C9 threads posting "KICK ENVY WIN TI5" and shit like that. 99% of the time I'm making real observations you can agree with or disagree with.
Controversial shit like:
1) It's a bad idea to give him absolute roster control 2) There's no guarantee C9 would disband if Envy left
These are two points his fans freaked out about in recent months. You'll forgive me if the fucks I might have had have run out.
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On May 02 2015 06:17 FHDH wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 05:46 bagels21 wrote:On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time. Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots. Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him) Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense, but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). Some professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. Yes, I'm here because it's moderated here and I like that, not because I need that. The implication was that I don't have the balls to say anything against Envy out where people are reading it because I'm afraid of teh flamez or something which is actually super-hilarious if you know me at all, on or offline. And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice: 1) When someone was talking trash to me and I talked trash back and shit got REAL SENSITIVE all of a sudden and I didn't back down because I underestimated what babies some people are about Envy-kun. 2) When someone misread something I said as calling Envy autistic, which is a myth that will never die I guess despite it standing up to basically no scrutiny. But I don't blame the mod for doing that since I'd rather they have a trigger finger about all the autism bullshit than having that idiocy all over these boards. And I've said a LOT more about Envy than that around here, as anyone who follows me around the board being mad I'm saying anything about Envy (read: a lot of people apparently) knows. So don't blow up my Envy-related interactions with the mods into something that it isn't. I'm not saying Envy is dumb. I'm saying he's a shitty writer, and I've said before, and will say again, that until he takes his communication seriously anything legitimate he has to say is going to be reduced in impact because of how he says it and what context he puts it in. Example: when I saw there was a new Envy Posts About A Tournament post I groaned a little. Not because ewwwww, Eternal Envy is taking up bits on the internet, how will I survive this -- I can just not read it. I groaned because I knew I'd want to read it but he's a shitty writer with a poor filter ("stream-of-consciousness" is SPOT ON) and it was going to be a chore. A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have. Once you get through the unedited word salad, that is. People attacking his writing has a purpose. Anyone who thinks tournaments are perfect or that nothing Envy writes is worth reading can fuck themselves. But his terrible editing combined with his lack of perspective makes it other people's jobs to dig through all his observations and make some kind of point out of it and figure out what's actually important. Anyone who knows anything about persuasive writing knows how terrible this is for the purpose of actually improving the scene. I don't like Envy. I make no bones about it. I laugh at sadenvy.gif in its various iterations. I take amusement in him living up to his reputation in games even when I'm rooting for his team. But so what? His fans need to calm the fuck down about it every time I post about him. I'm not the guy dropping into C9 threads posting "KICK ENVY WIN TI5" and shit like that. 99% of the time I'm making real observations you can agree with or disagree with. Controversial shit like: 1) It's a bad idea to give him absolute roster control 2) There's no guarantee C9 would disband if Envy left These are two points his fans freaked out about in recent months. You'll forgive me if the fucks I might have had have run out. "And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice:"
I didn't intend to but your post is pretty much challenging people to do so lol.
"A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have." - I mean that's all their is to it. We agree on that fundamental point. I don't intend on arguing about C9 on a blog, but we can agree to disagree about that part. I continue to respond to you vs. other EE haters because I think you're smart and reasonable to some extent and yes I appreciate the fact that you don't go into C9 or EE threads to continue the "EE terrible carry kick pls" theme that has occurred for years,
Anyhow, if "freak out" means argue with you, it happens. That's what TL fandom is all about lol. (You've seen it yourself with Na'Vi and Alliance threads that inevitably descend into this when discussing rosters.)
In the end, yes I wish he wrote better, but it's worked and will likely continue to work for him. Let's get this discussion back to NS's blog lol
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On May 02 2015 06:41 bagels21 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 02 2015 06:17 FHDH wrote:On May 02 2015 05:46 bagels21 wrote:On May 01 2015 16:40 FHDH wrote:On May 01 2015 16:27 eX Killy wrote:On May 01 2015 14:03 FHDH wrote: Hey man the EternalEnvy fanthread is that way --->
Here we're not defending a college dropout's inability to apply basic formatting and editing to an internet forum post. heh, first hes captain weaboo then an autist and now hes a drop out. only reason youre this hard is cos you know you'd get shit on if you tried to post that remark anywhere else (like last time. and the time before that etc). since this is the blogs and no 1 scrolls this far ure in the clear m8 keep it up Lol! The Envy fans swarmed thus thread to defend their senpai and got more obnoxious as it went on and now you wanna pull my card? Here's the thing: this board is tame as fuck. No one has "shit on me here" whatever your collective fanboism has led you to believe. But I like that the board is tame. That's why I'm here and not at NA Dota. So I'm willing to reign it in to do my part to maintain that. But when Fuccboi McGee wants to get all hot with me I reserve the right to laugh in his face. And Envy is a weeaboo. And a college drop out who apparently never leaned to write. I just don't find it relevant to the conversation 99% of the time, because it's not. But uh, "shit on me" about that if you like. Light up the sky with the Animesignal if you like. Hopefully you can compose a single cogent post in the ensuing melee of angry nerds. Lol you're here and not on NADota because the mods here mod and people don't just post inside jokes all the time. Let's be honest, you've been warned about your anti-EE comments and I'm fine with it but you don't need to go all hard on TL just because you think some of the guys who have responded to your posts are idiots. Your favorite players didn't even go to college or dropped out too so I don't see why that's relevant in critiquing his posts. (Look, I can play your game too) I avoided answering your first response to me because I didn't want to get into an argument about ad hominem (yes I think it's an overused response, but it's relevant in this thread. Look when Aui responded and basically 100% supported Envy, nobody said a peep and instead totally agreed with him) Just because he doesn't post the most well written blog posts doesn't mean he didn't know how to write. Someone who averaged an A in the best Engineering program in Canada is likely not an idiot. Anyhow this is besides the point. NS is right in some sense, but he's 100% exaggerating Envy's claims(the hotel comment was literally 1 point in 15). Some professionalism is good and it seems that EE's efforts have worked and may continue to work. Yes, I'm here because it's moderated here and I like that, not because I need that. The implication was that I don't have the balls to say anything against Envy out where people are reading it because I'm afraid of teh flamez or something which is actually super-hilarious if you know me at all, on or offline. And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice: 1) When someone was talking trash to me and I talked trash back and shit got REAL SENSITIVE all of a sudden and I didn't back down because I underestimated what babies some people are about Envy-kun. 2) When someone misread something I said as calling Envy autistic, which is a myth that will never die I guess despite it standing up to basically no scrutiny. But I don't blame the mod for doing that since I'd rather they have a trigger finger about all the autism bullshit than having that idiocy all over these boards. And I've said a LOT more about Envy than that around here, as anyone who follows me around the board being mad I'm saying anything about Envy (read: a lot of people apparently) knows. So don't blow up my Envy-related interactions with the mods into something that it isn't. I'm not saying Envy is dumb. I'm saying he's a shitty writer, and I've said before, and will say again, that until he takes his communication seriously anything legitimate he has to say is going to be reduced in impact because of how he says it and what context he puts it in. Example: when I saw there was a new Envy Posts About A Tournament post I groaned a little. Not because ewwwww, Eternal Envy is taking up bits on the internet, how will I survive this -- I can just not read it. I groaned because I knew I'd want to read it but he's a shitty writer with a poor filter ("stream-of-consciousness" is SPOT ON) and it was going to be a chore. A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have. Once you get through the unedited word salad, that is. People attacking his writing has a purpose. Anyone who thinks tournaments are perfect or that nothing Envy writes is worth reading can fuck themselves. But his terrible editing combined with his lack of perspective makes it other people's jobs to dig through all his observations and make some kind of point out of it and figure out what's actually important. Anyone who knows anything about persuasive writing knows how terrible this is for the purpose of actually improving the scene. I don't like Envy. I make no bones about it. I laugh at sadenvy.gif in its various iterations. I take amusement in him living up to his reputation in games even when I'm rooting for his team. But so what? His fans need to calm the fuck down about it every time I post about him. I'm not the guy dropping into C9 threads posting "KICK ENVY WIN TI5" and shit like that. 99% of the time I'm making real observations you can agree with or disagree with. Controversial shit like: 1) It's a bad idea to give him absolute roster control 2) There's no guarantee C9 would disband if Envy left These are two points his fans freaked out about in recent months. You'll forgive me if the fucks I might have had have run out. "And don't invoke the mods, let's get history straight here, I got warned about Envy posts twice:" I didn't intend to but your post is pretty much challenging people to do so lol. "A worthwhile chore because as much as his perspective is terrible and his writing is worse he's inevitably going to post things that are worth considering and observations of things that actually happened that probably should not have." - I mean that's all their is to it. We agree on that fundamental point. I don't intend on arguing about C9 on a blog, but we can agree to disagree about that part. I continue to respond to you vs. other EE haters because I think you're smart and reasonable to some extent and yes I appreciate the fact that you don't go into C9 or EE threads to continue the "EE terrible carry kick pls" theme that has occurred for years, Anyhow, if "freak out" means argue with you, it happens. That's what TL fandom is all about lol. (You've seen it yourself with Na'Vi and Alliance threads that inevitably descend into this when discussing rosters.) In the end, yes I wish he wrote better, but it's worked and will likely continue to work for him. Let's get this discussion back to NS's blog lol Well I mean "freak out" as in act like I'm saying shit I'm not and having some pretty extreme reactions. I'm still scratching my head how anyone can argue with a statement like "C9 disbanding without EE is not automatic" but anyway.
That said, I'm perfectly fine with bringing this thread back around to the relative merits of these blogs vs. my relationship with the board's C9 fans.
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I agree with NS in that we have to appreciate what we have now, disagree with his sarcastic, patronizing tone, and offer a possible explanation.
I've been an avid Dota fan since before 6.0 and have seen what NS highlights: absolutely shittily organized tournaments that were, in many respects, all that the scene had. Professional play was reserved only for BW in Korea.
The problem is that with the advent of Dota 2, so many players and people entered the scene. Valve, a large company, came into the picture. Suddenly, money poured into the Dota scene at an uncontrolled rate. However, a lot of the people who had run things were still there. After all, they had the experience. So you have this influx of money and interest but somehow a slower rate of organizational improvement, which will logically lead to a disparate expectation of what tournament organizers can deliver. I've helped run small tournaments in Dota to huge international debate tournaments and it is never easy. Even when you think you've got all bases covered, there's always something that you miss, and that something will be noticed by someone who will bitch about it.
The key points for envy's blog is his specific criticisms leveled at how tournament organizers should ensure that the actual gameplay (as opposed to the players' own personal psychological health and physical comfort) is taken care of. Soundproofing is the most important issue. Functional computers and decent internet as well. Comfort is important but secondary, and should be given a buget allocation once the basics are covered. Everything else is up to the organizer to determine (ie if the organizers feel that food is very important, then they should customize it based on the team's preference, but if not, just get the same things).
NS I feel was just a bit offended (as old school players usually are) when he saw a relatively new player complain about things that never existed before. He's not in the wrong - we always have to appreciate our roots - but he's also not looking at the salient points envy raised that should be part of the new tournament minimum standard.
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On April 30 2015 13:47 sang wrote: Disregarding NS' own personal shortcomings, he is somewhat right in that a lot of ways that players are big prima donas nowadays.
Remember back to the days of CPL and other tournaments in early 2000s? Metal chairs, flat wooden desks, people standing behind you cheering/shouting as you play. Remember even some of the early MLG's back in 2010-2011 when it was a big deal they had a "players lounge" with 10 computers set aside? Now, players want everything. What your venue doesn't have 50/50 wifi connection? Horrible. No backstage lounge with couches, bean bags and TVs? Terrible. Matches delayed 30 minutes? Worst admins ever.
Some of it isn't completely the players' fault — for the newer ones especially its how they've been conditioned. For others though, its downright selfish and completely illogical to expect TI level service at every event.
Finally, some1 caught NS's idea.
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Neither esports pro players or Pro athletes are "lucky" for they position they are in. Luck is involved but it's not the same kind of luck as winning the lottery.
NS has a point but it's not a productive one. It's built around attacking critics. EE doesn't have a point and just writes a blog about random thoughts (which are what blogs are for). Blogs don't necessarily need a motive.
If NS didn't target EE's post, these two posts are barely related...
Players want working computers not Limos. Translators are a necessity not a luxury for an international LAN.
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This thread reignites my age old question, why does anyone care about really anything EE says?
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EE is missing a point, he is "working" and earning a % of the winnings plus his salary, where most of us just earn the same every month no matter what we do. I would like to see him give his share of the winnings just for the sake of better tournaments.
It is pretty valid to complain about many things he said, not everything. And not the way he did, we will see what he thinks after he organizes a tournament.
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the best thing about the blog is the picture. The rest is summarized by the analogy of eventhebouncy. You shall never stop complaining, even if you knew it was worse 20 years ago. I mean, why the fuck do I see people complain in the QQ thread about playing a game? Shouldn't all of you, who agree with NS and disagree with envy flame the whole QQ thread (including me) for complaining about problems they have in a game nobody forces them to play and many many many people on the planet do not even have the means to enjoy? Of fucking course it's relative compare to times back in the day. Have you ever heard somone complain about you going to the toilet too many times, because back then, they had to go out in the garden to the shithouse? Or to the staircase cause there were no toilets in the flat? Times change and while keeping the past in mind, it's not being a "warmduscher" to demand progress.
On another note, the spectators don't have the insight into neither the organisator's, nor the player's perspective. That changes through such blogs. Sure it is just a piece of the whole picture but nevertheless it's pretty clear, that communication between organisers and participants could, most of the time, be better.
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On May 05 2015 23:42 Artisreal wrote: the best thing about the blog is the picture. The rest is summarized by the analogy of eventhebouncy. You shall never stop complaining, even if you knew it was worse 20 years ago. I mean, why the fuck do I see people complain in the QQ thread about playing a game? Shouldn't all of you, who agree with NS and disagree with envy flame the whole QQ thread (including me) for complaining about problems they have in a game nobody forces them to play and many many many people on the planet do not even have the means to enjoy? Of fucking course it's relative compare to times back in the day. Have you ever heard somone complain about you going to the toilet too many times, because back then, they had to go out in the garden to the shithouse? Or to the staircase cause there were no toilets in the flat? Times change and while keeping the past in mind, it's not being a "warmduscher" to demand progress.
On another note, the spectators don't have the insight into neither the organisator's, nor the player's perspective. That changes through such blogs. Sure it is just a piece of the whole picture but nevertheless it's pretty clear, that communication between organisers and participants could, most of the time, be better.
I agree, without complaining most things would stay the same. Demanding changes can lead to progress, what I don't approve is EE's way of doing things, and how he transmits his thoughts and feelings.
I find funny how people approve EE's actions just because they like what he does. Being a fan does not mean to support the guy through all the shit without even questioning him. For instance, there are people who work on the street all day long, public bathrooms are not everywhere to serve their needs, and if there are, they usually are not in the best of states, but who listen to these guys' needs? Not one soul, and if someone were to hear a complain from them they usually shake it off like they don't matter, why? because not everyone has to deal with someone else's problems. This kind of bias is what make public figures get their way against everything and everyone.
I think a better way to improve the scene for players would be to get involved in the process instead of throwing mud to everyone. OUR way to improve the scene is contributing with bundles and viewership and that kind of stuff.
On another note EE does not have the insight into the organizator's perspective either, as much as we don't have insight into their perspective.
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