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Something I have noticed on the rise recently, is the attribution of many mass genocides directly to atheism and secularism.
The argument goes something like this: Marxism/Communism/Nazism are all based upon secularism or atheism. Hence the bloody massacres committed during the times of the Third Reich or the days of Stalin can be chalked directly up to atheism. Even accepting that the crusades and the inquisition were directly caused by Christianity, the number of deaths pales to insignificance compared to what atheism has inflicted upon the human race.
While it pains me to say it, arguments such as this are far from uncommon. Jezuzfreek777, a prominent YouTube creationist, put forward this video recently as a challenge to atheists.
Hitler is so often held up as an example of evil that by attributing some trait to him, it is implied that that trait must also be supremely evil. Thus, when an example of the perils of atheism is needed, Hitler is invariably thrown up.
Unfortunately, this claim is completely unfounded. Here are a few quotes from Hilter:
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
-( Adolf Hitler, from John Toland [Pulitzer Prize winner], Adolf Hitler, New York: Anchor Publishing, 1992, p. 507. )
"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-( Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf, Ralph Mannheim, ed., New York: Mariner Books, 1999, p. 65. )
Hitler's own words seem to suggest that not only is the claim completely unfounded... but also seem to imply that the reverse is true.
While writing this, I happened upon a post on RichardDawkins.net which summed up everything I would hope to say on this matter brilliantly. I've reproduced it, slightly cut down. Full credit to Atticus_of_Amber for this eloquent argument.
+ Show Spoiler [Atticus_of_Amber] +
It may surprise you to hear that my primary target isn't religion, or even theism as such. Indeed, as I'll explain later, there are some forms of religion (and even some rare forms of theism, specifically deism) with which I have very little problem at all.
So, what *is* my problem? My problem is with dogma. With the belief that it is acceptable, even admirable, to believe propositions without good evidence or without good reasons for believing those propositions to be true.
The forms those dogmatically believed propositions can take are potentially infinite. One might dogmatically believe in the historical inevitability of a communist utopia, under which the State will wither away, after a brief but necessary period of a dictatorship of the proletariat. One might dogmatically believe in the existence of something called the Aryan race, in its inherent superiority to all other races, and in the inherent inferiority and perfidy of the Jewish race. One might dogmatically believe that the Creator of the universe called one's religion to convert the world or take it by force through holy war, that death in the defence of (or attempt to reconquer) lands so acquired is the greatest of all actions, and that such martyrs will go to paradise after they die to be attended by 72 virgin brides and joined in due course be all their family and loved-ones. Or one might dogmatically believe that the creator of the universe condemns contraception as a mortal sin.
What all four of these beliefs have in common is that there is very little or no evidence for them and that there is much good evidence against them. Yet all four beliefs have at times been passionately, ardently believed and acted upon by otherwise rational, sane and educated people - often resulting in those same people performing some of the most irrational, insane and barbaric acts imaginable.
Thankfully, fascist, Nazi and Communist dogmas have been so discredited that almost no-one believes them any more. That is a development to be celebrated. But as the events of New York and Washington DC and Bali and Madrid and London demonstrate; as demonstrated by the genocidally stupid anti-contraceptive policies of the Catholic church in Africa and the homicidally stupid stem-cell policies of Christian churches in the US ; religious dogmas are alive and kicking and at work in the world.
Reason and evidence and empiricism and science and liberal democracy - in short, the forces of the Enlightenment - have destroyed Communist and Fascist dogmas. Now it is time to do the same to the dogmas of religious faith.
Also mentioned in the video, a common argument from American Christians, is that Christianity is "winning out" the "goodness" race. That they contribute more to society. Many great works are done by Christians, but the reason this tally might seem overwhelmingly in favor of Christians in the states, is that Christians are far and away the majority in America. One need only look at a secular nation such as France or virtually any country whose national motto is not "In God we trust" to see that Atheists, Muslims, Pagans and other minorities contribute just as much.
I'd like to leave you today with virtually no argument of my own with a funny bit of satire posted on TheMorningNews.Org: You Sexy Atheist, You
Catch you all next time.
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On February 03 2008 03:48 Alethios wrote:
Hitler is so often held up as an example of evil that by attributing some trait to him, it is implied that that trait must also be supremely evil. Thus, when an example of the perils of atheism is needed, Hitler is invariably thrown up.
People who think that Hitler was an evil person because he was an atheist, are stupid. There are so many atheist people who have done good things that it cant be credible.
Moreover there are also so many exemples of religious people who murderered "pagans". The medieval crusades had some characteristics of genocide ( European crusaders killed people because of their religion instead of their "race", but they still managed to slaughter a large number of random muslim civilians because of their dumb faith ) this is why i reckon that religion is one of the major cause of wars in the world and throughout history ( way more than atheism imo ).
On February 03 2008 03:48 Alethios wrote:
Reason and evidence and empiricism and science and liberal democracy - in short, the forces of the Enlightenment - have destroyed Communist and Fascist dogmas. Now it is time to do the same to the dogmas of religious faith.
[/spoiler]
Yea, because creationim is an insult to human mind and science. I can understand that it is so strong in the US.
On February 03 2008 03:48 Alethios wrote:
One need only look at a secular nation such as France or virtually any country whose national motto is not "In God we trust" to see that Atheists, Muslims, Pagans and other minorities contribute just as much.
So true.
+ Show Spoiler + i hope that i wont start a huge off topic again 
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The USA has a serious problem with all that religious fundamentalism and nonsense (creationism etc.) growing in popularity these days. Hate of atheism or agnosticism means hate of reason, hate of neutrality, hate of science, hate of independent thinking.
Religious fundamentalism always was and always will be detrimental for society as a whole.
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On February 03 2008 04:28 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
The USA has a serious problem with all that religious fundamentalism and nonsense (creationism etc.) growing in popularity these days. Hate of atheism or agnosticism means hate of reason, hate of neutrality, hate of science, hate of independent thinking.
Religious fundamentalism always was and always will be detrimental for society as a whole.
Haha beef you a stalker ^^. Nevertheless I totally agree with you, Christian fundamentalism is a real threat for Western socities especially in the US and South American countries ( I cant stand those evangelists bigots ).
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United States22883 Posts
Those social movements are the product of anomie, not dogma.
On February 03 2008 04:28 0xDEADBEEF wrote:
The USA has a serious problem with all that religious fundamentalism and nonsense (creationism etc.) growing in popularity these days. Hate of atheism or agnosticism means hate of reason, hate of neutrality, hate of science, hate of independent thinking.
Religious fundamentalism always was and always will be detrimental for society as a whole. Do not automatically equate atheism and agnosticism as reason, neutrality and independent thinking. Those qualities do not apply to the vast majority of the world, whether they're religious or not.
And fundamentalism is dangerous, but I think polar extremes are useful for society.
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Fundamental extremes are an interesting study at least...
I think the major problem with Dawkins' argument is that communism has been discredited.
However, I think the one truth is that religion and science are not opposed. Science is just based on empirical observation and repeated experimentation to determine things that are consistently true (physical constants etc). So science only says "this is observed to be true." I don't think that is a serious attack on religion. Although Dawkins, despite his claims, seems to be of the opinion religion isn't all that great because it doesn't use scientific method or something, which is an absurd claim (based on Atticus_of_Amber, I haven't read much by Dawkins). I don't think reasonable Christians go around saying "don't use the scientific method because if you have faith you will get the correct results."
As far as the genocide thing etc... I'll have to study more. Sounds interesting. I think the one thing people should realize is genocide = bad, a conclusion to which most have already come.
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United States22883 Posts
Religion and science ask many of the same questions, so yes, they are opposed. As our scientific understanding grows, the credibility of religion weakens.
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Hitler really disliked the Catholic church. He also hated Christian morality in many ways. Hitler also said the following, which you nicely ommitted by cherrypicking quotes (the second quote isn't even an indication of anything):
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Not to mention, you ignored Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Ideas matter. By the way, nice job drawing a strawman of the agument:
Marxism/Communism/Nazism are all based upon secularism or atheism. Hence the bloody massacres committed during the times of the Third Reich or the days of Stalin can be chalked directly up to atheism.
Thats so unsophisticated as to be absurd, next time at least try to pick apart an argument that you present correctly instead of caricaturing.
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Wow. The OP started by fulfilling Godwin's law.
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(Slightly cut down)
On February 04 2008 10:00 FieryBalrog wrote:
Hitler really disliked the Catholic church. He also hated Christian morality in many ways. Hitler also said the following, which you nicely ommitted by cherrypicking quotes (the second quote isn't even an indication of anything):
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
Not to mention, you ignored Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Ideas matter. By the way, nice job drawing a strawman of the agument:
Marxism/Communism/Nazism are all based upon secularism or atheism. Hence the bloody massacres committed during the times of the Third Reich or the days of Stalin can be chalked directly up to atheism.
Thats so unsophisticated as to be absurd, next time at least try to pick apart an argument that you present correctly instead of caricaturing.
You seem to be very angry with me since our last meeting. Almost entirely my fault, i'm sure. But then you go and bring this to the table, further souring our relationship.
Firstly, your selection of quotes does nothing to counter my argument, in fact this quote i find particularly interesting:
"...indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery..."
I would propose from my limited knowledge of Hitler's thoughts, that he was furious with the Catholic church for distorting what he saw as the true or correct way to worship God. Whatever the case may be, Hitler was certainly a religious man. That was only point I made and you have shown me nothing contrary to it.
Secondly, you accuse me of presenting a strawman. Let me quote from the video I linked, which you obviously have not seen. "Atheism is not an ideology, but Darwinism, Nietzcheism (which Hitler was), Freudianism, Marxism, Communism, etc are ideologies with an atheistic base. These different "isms" within Atheism are like the different denominations within Christianity." Jezuzfreek then goes on to explain the deaths that can be attributed to Nietzcheism, Communism etc. As much as I would like to think otherwise, this argument was not a strawman. Get your facts straight.
Lastly, I supposedly ignored Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and so forth. Again, if you had bothered to read what I'd actually written, instead of carrying out your personal vendetta, you'd see that the Dogma in general is addressed in the quoted argument.
In future, when making a straw man of my argument (after accusing me of resorting to such tactics)... at least make sure you bring something constructive to the table. My how the mighty have fallen.
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Yep, Catholics are constantly propping up arguments that Atheism leads to genocide a la "Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Mao, etc." or WHATEVER. I hear this constantly, and Richard Dawkins (among others) refutes it thoroughly. They (Catholics) lie about what Dawkins says even as they are doing the genocide argument. And they also quote Nietzsche out of context like a 4th grader. Yeah, check it out.
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Mighty? Who's mighty? What kind of might does a mighty person have if he wastes away his time on some internet forum, debating with faceless people about things that don't really matter anyways?
Maybe I'm mistaken, but I thought this whole place was to function as a timesink (aside from the SC pro gaming news). I don't think it's justified to flame people for wasting your time here.
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On February 04 2008 13:12 Alethios wrote:
I would propose from my limited knowledge of Hitler's thoughts, that he was furious with the Catholic church for distorting what he saw as the true or correct way to worship God. Whatever the case may be, Hitler was certainly a religious man. That was only point I made and you have shown me nothing contrary to it.
His tone wasn't very angry...
I know a lot of academics don't like Wikipedia, but you can check the references if you want
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs
During his latter years the argument that Hitler revered Christ is totally absurd.
On February 04 2008 06:20 Jibba wrote:
As our scientific understanding grows, the credibility of religion weakens.
Wrong
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On February 04 2008 13:52 Ancestral wrote:Show nested quote +On February 04 2008 06:20 Jibba wrote:
As our scientific understanding grows, the credibility of religion weakens. Wrong
Perhaps not entirely correct, but certainly the "need" of a God/Gods/Djinn for events and processes has decreased over time as our scientific understanding grows.
A God is no longer required to explain how wind operates, or how day transitions into night. While perhaps a God could still be used to explain the origins of the universe, events in our day to day lives no longer require a supernatural explanation.
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Your analysis is a good one I feel, though I think you're approaching it from a different viewpoint from me, it's still fair.
I always like it when people of different mindsets can both defer to reason.
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On February 04 2008 13:12 Alethios wrote:
Not to mention, you ignored Stalin, Lenin, Mao, Pol Pot, etc. Ideas matter. By the way, nice job drawing a strawman of the agument:
oops
Of course the reason people do the things they do is because of dogma. However, some dogma is worse than others. For example, if religious people believe they have to fast once a week or they won't get to heaven, thats dogma, but its pretty harmless. However, if you believe you need to cleanse the earth by wiping out all religious groups, forcing people to breed according to 'science', dictating what occupation one should have for 'advancement of society', etc, that is a particularly nasty dogma. The question is, which dogma is the most efficient at killing?
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I'm guessing that higher tech means higher killing efficiency, so science will win in the end. However, it also has a much lower tendency to motivate killing (compared to religion). I'm talking out of my ass, so don't correct me if I'm wrong. It's my dogma and I'm sticking to it.
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United States22883 Posts
On February 04 2008 13:52 Ancestral wrote:
Wrong
As research continues, religious "truth" decreases in size (no, God is not moving the Sun, and in 10 years no, God did not make bacteria flagellum.) As archeology discovers, the very foundations of religious history have been proven false (the flood was really a drought, Jesus was not unique for his time, the Israelites were unruly warriors, not obedient slaves.) As medicine develops, the hope and comfort religion provides is quickly being replaced by chemical altering drugs.
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EPT
