|
On October 02 2014 19:24 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 19:18 maartendq wrote: It's about time this whole kickstarter trend comes to an end. It's basically developers begging for money without having anything to show.
Also, testers should get paid, not pay to test. I don't see how Kickstarter is coming to an end here. I also don't see how the "early access" business model is coming to an end here. Hmmm... I think Kickstarter is pretty awesome... Thinking about the great games and stuff it brought us, I'm sure Kickstarter will last for a while. The early-access business model is a ripoff. 'Back in the day' (i.e. just a few years ago) game testers were fully paid employees who spent entire days trying to break a game. Nowadays people have to pay to be able to test a game.
Personally, there is no way I would ever give money to people who have yet to prove themselves. We've gone from a time where getting free-demo versions of games was the norm, to no demos at all, to actually having to pay to be able to play a 'demo'-version of a game.
|
On October 02 2014 19:35 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 19:24 beg wrote:On October 02 2014 19:18 maartendq wrote: It's about time this whole kickstarter trend comes to an end. It's basically developers begging for money without having anything to show.
Also, testers should get paid, not pay to test. I don't see how Kickstarter is coming to an end here. I also don't see how the "early access" business model is coming to an end here. Hmmm... I think Kickstarter is pretty awesome... Thinking about the great games and stuff it brought us, I'm sure Kickstarter will last for a while. The early-access business model is a ripoff. 'Back in the day' (i.e. just a few years ago) game testers were fully paid employees who spent entire days trying to break a game. Nowadays people have to pay to be able to test a game. Personally, there is no way I would ever give money to people who have yet to prove themselves. We've gone from a time where getting free-demo versions of games was the norm, to no demos at all, to actually having to pay to be able to play a 'demo'-version of a game.
Its on the onus of donors to be informed and make wise choices. But I agree with your sentiment here, its the sign of the times. Gamers these days have a lot more disposable income and seem to splash cash at anything that strikes their fancy, and game developers know to take advantage of it.
|
On October 02 2014 19:35 maartendq wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 19:24 beg wrote:On October 02 2014 19:18 maartendq wrote: It's about time this whole kickstarter trend comes to an end. It's basically developers begging for money without having anything to show.
Also, testers should get paid, not pay to test. I don't see how Kickstarter is coming to an end here. I also don't see how the "early access" business model is coming to an end here. Hmmm... I think Kickstarter is pretty awesome... Thinking about the great games and stuff it brought us, I'm sure Kickstarter will last for a while. The early-access business model is a ripoff. 'Back in the day' (i.e. just a few years ago) game testers were fully paid employees who spent entire days trying to break a game. Nowadays people have to pay to be able to test a game. Personally, there is no way I would ever give money to people who have yet to prove themselves. We've gone from a time where getting free-demo versions of games was the norm, to no demos at all, to actually having to pay to be able to play a 'demo'-version of a game. Free demos are still the norm and I can't remember a time where there were no free demos.
Anyway, you're not buying "demos" at Kickstarter, but the final game + early access. And people are quite happy about being able to play their game of choice as early as possible. So I don't exactly see how they're being ripped off. "Early access" usually is a win-win situation, imho.
Also, if a project is canceled, people are refunded, as far as I know. But I'm not too well versed in crowdfunding. (Sure, scam exists too...)
|
On October 02 2014 19:44 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 19:35 maartendq wrote:On October 02 2014 19:24 beg wrote:On October 02 2014 19:18 maartendq wrote: It's about time this whole kickstarter trend comes to an end. It's basically developers begging for money without having anything to show.
Also, testers should get paid, not pay to test. I don't see how Kickstarter is coming to an end here. I also don't see how the "early access" business model is coming to an end here. Hmmm... I think Kickstarter is pretty awesome... Thinking about the great games and stuff it brought us, I'm sure Kickstarter will last for a while. The early-access business model is a ripoff. 'Back in the day' (i.e. just a few years ago) game testers were fully paid employees who spent entire days trying to break a game. Nowadays people have to pay to be able to test a game. Personally, there is no way I would ever give money to people who have yet to prove themselves. We've gone from a time where getting free-demo versions of games was the norm, to no demos at all, to actually having to pay to be able to play a 'demo'-version of a game. Free demos are still the norm and I can't remember a time where there were no free demos. Anyway, you're not buying "demos" at Kickstarter, but the final game + early access. And people are quite happy about being able to play their game of choice as early as possible. So I don't exactly see how they're being ripped off. "Early access" usually is a win-win situation, imho.
in an era where most gamers just buy anything that strikes their fancy and leave it untouched forever after a few hours of playing it, yeah. As a developer having to release a demo beforehand might put some people off who would have otherwise paid for my product in full, dislike it after a while and chuck it aside. everything is about $$$ these days.
|
On October 02 2014 19:48 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 19:44 beg wrote:On October 02 2014 19:35 maartendq wrote:On October 02 2014 19:24 beg wrote:On October 02 2014 19:18 maartendq wrote: It's about time this whole kickstarter trend comes to an end. It's basically developers begging for money without having anything to show.
Also, testers should get paid, not pay to test. I don't see how Kickstarter is coming to an end here. I also don't see how the "early access" business model is coming to an end here. Hmmm... I think Kickstarter is pretty awesome... Thinking about the great games and stuff it brought us, I'm sure Kickstarter will last for a while. The early-access business model is a ripoff. 'Back in the day' (i.e. just a few years ago) game testers were fully paid employees who spent entire days trying to break a game. Nowadays people have to pay to be able to test a game. Personally, there is no way I would ever give money to people who have yet to prove themselves. We've gone from a time where getting free-demo versions of games was the norm, to no demos at all, to actually having to pay to be able to play a 'demo'-version of a game. Free demos are still the norm and I can't remember a time where there were no free demos. Anyway, you're not buying "demos" at Kickstarter, but the final game + early access. And people are quite happy about being able to play their game of choice as early as possible. So I don't exactly see how they're being ripped off. "Early access" usually is a win-win situation, imho. in an era where most gamers just buy anything that strikes their fancy and leave it untouched forever after a few hours of playing it, yeah. As a developer having to release a demo beforehand might put some people off who would have otherwise paid for my product in full. Your choice to not release a demo is probably a bad one. Unless your game is bad too, then it might actually turn out a good choice, lol. (I'm being 100% serious right now).
Anyway, I'm assuming it's a bad choice, because releasing a demo is a tried and tested formula for marketing a game. It's been a part of game marketing for decades and you should really ask yourself why every major game gets a free demo
PS: marketing is a huge hobby of mine
|
On October 02 2014 07:42 Sanders wrote: Reflex is the next stage in the evolution of the fast-paced Arena FPS genre.
wouldn't it need to be different from it's predecessors to justify that status? like, gameplay-wise? because it looks exactly like every other "fast paced Arena FPS game". F.E.A.R. was one of the few that stood out of the lot imo, because it did stuff differently, but this looks pretty generic.
|
On October 02 2014 19:52 beg wrote: every major game gets a free demo
when im talking about "releasing demos" im talking about free demos which does not require you to put in money first.
unlike in the past where EVERY game releases a free demo without having you to pay. did you not see the OP? what free demo? haha. most games nowadays require you to put in money FIRST before you can even taste what its like.
companies that put their quality gameplay and service over money first are few and far between.
|
Game looks great, I don't think it can succeed though. Quake style games are kind of dead it's really a niche market, too bad because the game promotes incredible skill, it's akin to BW.
|
On October 02 2014 20:08 Probemicro wrote:when im talking about "releasing demos" im talking about free demos which does not require you to put in money first. unlike in the past where EVERY game releases a free demo without having you to pay. did you not see the OP? what free demo? haha. Who says Reflex won't have a demo when it releases?
Honestly, I was checking for 10 big games released during the last 10 years and they all had a free demo... I wasn't able to find a single game without a demo.
On October 02 2014 20:14 Andre wrote: Game looks great, I don't think it can succeed though. Quake style games are kind of dead it's really a niche market, too bad because the game promotes incredible skill, it's akin to BW. What bugs me most about Reflex is that QL is getting a lot more attention again lately and Reflex will try to take a part of that.
I wish the money would go towards QL development... give me a 1v1 ladder, a real defrag mode (that's what the "movement maps" are called: defrag), basically all the stuff Reflex is trying to do, and put it in QL.
Now that QL has also been released on Steam, it might get even more attention. I feel like Reflex is hurting the Quake scene more than anything, even though they'll surely make it a great game.
|
On October 02 2014 20:15 beg wrote: Who says Reflex won't have a demo when it releases?
Honestly, I was checking for 10 big games released during the last 10 years and they all had a free demo... I wasn't able to find a single game without a demo.
you ignore the word "free" do you understand what "free" means? i pay zero cents, i get demo. which is not the case for this game. please stop your trolling.
|
On October 02 2014 20:26 Probemicro wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 20:15 beg wrote: Who says Reflex won't have a demo when it releases?
Honestly, I was checking for 10 big games released during the last 10 years and they all had a free demo... I wasn't able to find a single game without a demo.
you ignore the word "free" do you understand what "free" means? i pay zero cents, i get demo. which is not the case for this game. please stop your trolling. Sorry dude, you have lost the thread somewhere. Please pull yourself together and don't call me a troll.
What you buy on Kickstarter is THE FINAL GAME + EARLY ACCESS. The Kickstarter campaign has absolutely nothing to do with a demo. Reflex might get a demo once the game releases. I can't look into the future though.
If you're talking super early tech demos, like Q3 had one, those things have never been the norm. "Demos" are meant to represent the final product, usually.
|
On October 02 2014 19:24 beg wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 19:18 maartendq wrote: It's about time this whole kickstarter trend comes to an end. It's basically developers begging for money without having anything to show.
Also, testers should get paid, not pay to test. I don't see how Kickstarter is coming to an end here. I also don't see how the "early access" business model is coming to an end here. Hmmm... I think Kickstarter is pretty awesome... Thinking about the great games and stuff it brought us, I'm sure Kickstarter will last for a while.
What great games has it brought us except for empty promises and early access "games"
|
Looks like a straightforward CPM clone. I even recognize some of the maps, namely cpm1a and cpm3(a).
|
On October 02 2014 19:44 beg wrote:
Also, if a project is canceled, people are refunded, as far as I know. But I'm not too well versed in crowdfunding. (Sure, scam exists too...)
Below is the official Kickstarter Policy on failed projects. Kickstarter does not play a direct role in enforcing these guidelines. If a project fails to deliver on it's rewards, then refunding is one of the options kickstarter asks it's projects to use in order to fulfill their obligations and avoid legal action, but the creator is the sole responsible party if they do not fulfill their project. If a project completely ignores it's responsibilities your recourse is legal action. Once a project is funded Kickstater is no longer directly involved in enforcing anything. You will have to go to court for that.
When a project is successfully funded, the creator must complete the project and fulfill each reward. Once a creator has done so, they’ve satisfied their obligation to their backers.
Throughout the process, creators owe their backers a high standard of effort, honest communication, and a dedication to bringing the project to life. At the same time, backers must understand that when they back a project, they’re helping to create something new — not ordering something that already exists. There may be changes or delays, and there’s a chance something could happen that prevents the creator from being able to finish the project as promised.
If a creator is unable to complete their project and fulfill rewards, they’ve failed to live up to the basic obligations of this agreement. To right this, they must make every reasonable effort to find another way of bringing the project to the best possible conclusion for backers. A creator in this position has only remedied the situation and met their obligations to backers if: •they post an update that explains what work has been done, how funds were used, and what prevents them from finishing the project as planned; •they work diligently and in good faith to bring the project to the best possible conclusion in a timeframe that’s communicated to backers; •they’re able to demonstrate that they’ve used funds appropriately and made every reasonable effort to complete the project as promised; •they’ve been honest, and have made no material misrepresentations in their communication to backers; and •they offer to return any remaining funds to backers who have not received their reward (in proportion to the amounts pledged), or else explain how those funds will be used to complete the project in some alternate form.
The creator is solely responsible for fulfilling the promises made in their project. If they’re unable to satisfy the terms of this agreement, they may be subject to legal action by backers.
Reflex sounds interesting, but I need to see some of the developers other work before I would consider investing. And invest is the key word; kickstarter isn't a pre-order system. You invest in an idea, and if the idea turns out to suck once it's finished, you won't have any legal recourse to get a refund. Their obligation is to try and fulfill their promises in good faith, not to actually succeed.
According to this article, only 1/3rd of all video games that have been kickstarted have actually delivered on their promises.
On a side note, I think your post title of "heir apparent to e-sports throne" is hyperbole that hurts your cause more than it helps. Something like "Kickstarter with huge e-Sports potential" is going to be examined with a lot less negative skepticism than one that already tries to claim the title before it's even been made.
|
On October 02 2014 15:37 Sanders wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 15:10 Just_a_Moth wrote: The movement of and jumps look cool. The only that bothers me is that it looks like you can just barely land on platforms on jumps where I would expect to not quite make it. And all the jumps in the video were pretty much like that. You mean it looks like the guy in the video shouldn't be landing the jumps? It looks normal to me but I've been trick-jumping in CPMA for years. You'll come to love the movement physics. It looks like he has longer feet than normal, which allow him to make jumps that I would expect him to just barely fail.
|
On October 02 2014 21:15 Animzor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 19:24 beg wrote:On October 02 2014 19:18 maartendq wrote: It's about time this whole kickstarter trend comes to an end. It's basically developers begging for money without having anything to show.
Also, testers should get paid, not pay to test. I don't see how Kickstarter is coming to an end here. I also don't see how the "early access" business model is coming to an end here. Hmmm... I think Kickstarter is pretty awesome... Thinking about the great games and stuff it brought us, I'm sure Kickstarter will last for a while. What great games has it brought us except for empty promises and early access "games"
FTL, Divinity: Original Sin, Wasteland 2, The Banner Saga, and Shadowrun Returns were all great games (IMO) that were funded using the kickstarter system. Turn based or isometric RPG's in particular are seeing a resurgence solely because of the kickstarter system. Games like Divinity/Wasteland 2/Pillars of Eternity would not exist without it.
Scams will exist, but it's up to the backers to educate themselves and make informed decisions. Just because the average consumer is a moron doesn't mean the system isn't a net positive and can't produce good games.
|
@ op: Regarding your "grand claim": You explained why this game could take esports to a greater audience, fine. But imho this is different from being the most important esport ("the esports-throne"). Wouldnt a sports game like FIFA etc. be even better to understand for a non-playing audience, and have many of the other aspects you listed here?
On October 02 2014 22:36 karazax wrote:According to this article, only 1/3rd of all video games that have been kickstarted have actually delivered on their promises. Even though I'm critical of this game presented here, I would nevertheless say that it isnt "only 1/3rd", but "an amazingly high number of 1/3rd".
|
On October 02 2014 21:27 Hagen0 wrote: Looks like a straightforward CPM clone. I even recognize some of the maps, namely cpm1a and cpm3(a).
One of the devs worked on CPMA They already have a pre-alpha some people have access to it, i heard that Voo and entik, two skilled quake cpm players got it, you can see some gameplay of it by Voo on his twitch channel twitch.tv/voogamer/b/572791536
I think the game looks incredible but not sure if it's going to work, they said they will include tutorials for movements and all that make these games hard to master in the end to help introduce new players.
|
Looks promising. Hope it will be successful.
|
On October 03 2014 01:29 Nabized wrote:Show nested quote +On October 02 2014 21:27 Hagen0 wrote: Looks like a straightforward CPM clone. I even recognize some of the maps, namely cpm1a and cpm3(a). One of the devs worked on CPMA They already have a pre-alpha some people have access to it, i heard that Voo and entik, two skilled quake cpm players got it, you can see some gameplay of it by Voo on his twitch channel twitch.tv/voogamer/b/572791536 I think the game looks incredible but not sure if it's going to work, they said they will include tutorials for movements and all that make these games hard to master in the end to help introduce new players.
I played against Voo once. It was a massacre. :D
Looking forward to this.
|
|
|
|