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On July 05 2014 05:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 03:58 disodi wrote: Regardless if this is true, Europe definitely needs to look another direction cause the US has proven to be quite the unreliable ally the past decade... Yeah by all means try that, not that I am condoning any US foreign policy. But such a blank statement when only one side of the Alliance supports the other through bases, technical support, trade rights etc.
err. you know, US has bought up absolutely astonishing amounts of european infrastructure and industry, quite often just dumping it and sending production to china (the cause for the crises in greece, portugal and spain, for example), for worthless obligations (worthless in the sense that US could never ever in a million years actually pay what it owes european countries, and also since US, as well as the rest of the world, refuses to accept these obligations as any kind of payment). your government is actively trying to subdue the entire world to your corporate fascist oligarchy.
US bases are not support, they are an american gun to the european temple. US technical support... well. no US trade rights = funneling money inte american plutochracy while devastating every country it touches.
unless US triggers the next world war and manages to win it really soon, there's gonna start raining bombs over american soil within our lifetime. (maybe US could change its policies and give back everything they have stolen from the rest of the world)
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On July 05 2014 05:44 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 05:41 oneofthem wrote:US and europe share core interests and values.
LOL no uh yes.
some of these posts just show a total lack of awareness for how the rest of the world actually is. newsflash, pretty much everywhere else is much worse
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On July 05 2014 05:50 CYFAWS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 05:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On July 05 2014 03:58 disodi wrote: Regardless if this is true, Europe definitely needs to look another direction cause the US has proven to be quite the unreliable ally the past decade... Yeah by all means try that, not that I am condoning any US foreign policy. But such a blank statement when only one side of the Alliance supports the other through bases, technical support, trade rights etc. err. you know, US has bought up absolutely astonishing amounts of european infrastructure and industry, quite often just dumping it and sending production to china (the cause for the crises in greece, portugal and spain, for example), for worthless obligations (worthless in the sense that US could never ever in a million years actually pay what it owes european countries, and also since US, as well as the rest of the world, refuses to accept these obligations as any kind of payment). your government is actively trying to subdue the entire world to your corporate fascist oligarchy. US bases are not support, they are an american gun to the european temple. US technical support... well. no US trade rights = funneling money inte american plutochracy while devastating every country it touches. unless US triggers the next world war and manages to win it really soon, there's gonna start raining bombs over american soil within our lifetime. (maybe US could change its policies and give back everything they have stolen from the rest of the world) It's a good thing you don't live in the United States. Having all these guns around would prove a disaster.
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On July 05 2014 05:50 CYFAWS wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 05:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:On July 05 2014 03:58 disodi wrote: Regardless if this is true, Europe definitely needs to look another direction cause the US has proven to be quite the unreliable ally the past decade... Yeah by all means try that, not that I am condoning any US foreign policy. But such a blank statement when only one side of the Alliance supports the other through bases, technical support, trade rights etc. err. you know, US has bought up absolutely astonishing amounts of european infrastructure and industry, quite often just dumping it and sending production to china (the cause for the crises in greece, portugal and spain, for example), for worthless obligations (worthless in the sense that US could never ever in a million years actually pay what it owes european countries, and also since US, as well as the rest of the world, refuses to accept these obligations as any kind of payment). your government is actively trying to subdue the entire world to your corporate fascist oligarchy. US bases are not support, they are an american gun to the european temple. US technical support... well. no US trade rights = funneling money inte american plutochracy while devastating every country it touches. unless US triggers the next world war and manages to win it really soon, there's gonna start raining bombs over american soil within our lifetime. (maybe US could change its policies and give back everything they have stolen from the rest of the world)
TIL that Greeks not paying or even being honest about their taxes is the US Governments fault.
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On July 05 2014 05:36 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 03:58 disodi wrote: Regardless if this is true, Europe definitely needs to look another direction cause the US has proven to be quite the unreliable ally the past decade... Yeah by all means try that, not that I am condoning any US foreign policy. But such a blank statement when only one side of the Alliance supports the other through bases, technical support, trade rights etc. TIL that apparently trading is one-sided.
Guess i got it all wrong, things like DGS-4 are completely misunderstood. You conduct basically ALL your (partially illegal) drone-operations through germany because support. Not to mention, germany has military bases in other countries too. Just not as much, but no surprise considering the size of our military.
But as a small thought experiment: do you actually think, that if (not going to happen in foreseeable future, but for the sake of argument) the EU gets a unified army (therefore doesn't need "military support"), the US would close some of their most important bases?
Blanket statement, while i agree that there's alot of wrong in that guys posting, yours isn't an ounce better, sorry.
Fact of the matter is, the US got catched spying. Fact is also, that they were stupid enough to get catched AGAIN. If you seriously try to defend expanding the spying while already under investigation because of evidence, that's just plain dumb. And you deserve all the FLAK you'll get for it, too.
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Northern Ireland22201 Posts
The man is said to have been trying to gather details about a German parliamentary committee that is investigating claims of US espionage. HAHAHAHAHAHA this is too good
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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On July 05 2014 03:35 VanSCPurge wrote: You people act like every country on earth doesn't have spies. We all spy on each other, it happens. An American spy got caught. He wasn't very good at his job obviously.
You can stop with the anti-american dog-pile please.
The basic idea here is freedom of speech and open government where people have a say. Your phrase "anti-american dog-pile" seems unnecessary. I agree with most of the European posts though, our government seems extremely intelligence driven with knowing what the world is thinking about US policies and actions. If Germany wants that discussion about spies to be completely private though, I think that is their right. The german committee can discuss the boundaries that they feel are appropriate and the US and German negociators can have political discussion after they have a chance to figure out their countries own formal opinion.
As far as how Germany is treating the spy, this is diplomatically a fair way to handle spies in places that Germany does not feel necessary. (I mean they aren't executing him) Being arrested and requesting an explanation is completely fair. In the end, Germany's government is a good country and it is definitely fair to place boundaries. Everyone does not want excessive spying on the population. As your so called anti-american dog-pile says, the recording of "private" information from the internet is not exactly what I want as well.
The idea that Americans do not view Germany as an ally is mostly wrong. Occasionally, we agree to disagree. I think that germany, russia, china, and Great Britain are for the most part US allies. Also, I don't think its an anti-american dog-pile, so much as a respectful delineation of boundaries, this thread is not a hate thread. Countries argue, the fact is that some countries do not always agree, most of the time its ok. Over the next 10 years, they'll figure it out. There are a lot of people willing to listen. I'm glad that Europeans feel that they can openly discuss the subject without penalty from the US. The goal is not to have a secret state controlling speech or dictating rights.
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On July 05 2014 03:35 VanSCPurge wrote: You people act like every country on earth doesn't have spies. We all spy on each other, it happens. An American spy got caught. He wasn't very good at his job obviously.
You can stop with the anti-american dog-pile please.
This 100%. I'm surprised the guy got caught, that's the only thing I'm surprised about. I'm sure the Germans and other countries have spies in our agencies somewhere. While it isn't the best policy to have I think it's a necessary evil to have to make sure things don't get out of hand. For every country.
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On July 05 2014 05:52 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 05:44 hypercube wrote:On July 05 2014 05:41 oneofthem wrote:US and europe share core interests and values.
LOL no uh yes. some of these posts just show a total lack of awareness for how the rest of the world actually is. newsflash, pretty much everywhere else is much worse
Prosperity has fuck all to do with common values.
The 'values' that are shared between the US and the EU are quite common around the world. Actually they aren't really values, they are institutions. In terms of actual values like solidarity or human rights there are significant differences both between and within the US and the EU. And there are many similarities too, like there are similarities between EU countries and Latin American ones or even India.
So yeah, we aren't islands of stability in a world of lawlessness.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On July 05 2014 04:43 Skilledblob wrote: it's not about the fact that spying takes place. It's about who spies on whom and why. Germany and many other EU nations are supposed to be allies of the US government and this is not how you treat your friends. If Germany is America's friend, then they have nothing to hide. It shouldn't matter whether USA is checking up on Germany or not. Just like how I don't mind NSA spying on me because I'm not a terrorist.
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The real problem is not the spying, it's always getting caught. Though this case strikes me as a little different than normal. It's rare to get an actual, real "spy" selling secrets between the main European countries and the Anglosphere countries. (Most of the time it's having taps on the others phones) Given how most of these play out, and the reality of spying during the Cold War, my guess is we'll find the guy wanted to make some Money and the US was willing to pay. Hope the payments were worth the headache. (The most damaging "spies" were a ring that just wanted to make a buck, so they sold years worth of communications to the Soviets. No grand philosophy or work by the Soviets, just wanted to make lots of money.)
This should make for some fun high political comedy. Sadly, that's all it'll come to.
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On July 05 2014 07:16 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 04:43 Skilledblob wrote: it's not about the fact that spying takes place. It's about who spies on whom and why. Germany and many other EU nations are supposed to be allies of the US government and this is not how you treat your friends. If Germany is America's friend, then they have nothing to hide. It shouldn't matter whether USA is checking up on Germany or not. Just like how I don't mind NSA spying on me because I'm not a terrorist. Congratulations. It took 3 pages till we made it to the "why do you want privacy if you have nothing to hide?" argument.
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On July 05 2014 03:35 VanSCPurge wrote: You people act like every country on earth doesn't have spies. We all spy on each other, it happens. An American spy got caught. He wasn't very good at his job obviously.
You can stop with the anti-american dog-pile please.
Sorry if your country isn't really good at making friends oversea. And sorry if Germany caught a spy you sent them. We are all very sorry for America, poor country nobody like them for absolute no reason, life is so unfair with you guys, I feel you so much bro.
or not...
lol
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"The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized."
Jefferson and the other Founding Fathers were obviously trying to hide their Al-Qaeda connections.
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For having an insane budged with which you would probably be able to cure cancer within a decade, US spies seem to be pretty incompetent at the secrecy part.
politics change slowly because of the long periods between elections, but if this bullying continues, opinions will get stronger and politics will change.
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I think it's in everyone's best interest to keep an eye of the Wehrmacht!
On a serious note though, I would imagine everyone's spying on everyone. Well, no ones spying on Sweden cause we're insignificant, but it holds true for all other countries.
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Yeah because its totally only amerikkka who spies on their allies. Literally the only nation to ever spy on their allies. This is a new and shocking development in international politics.
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On July 05 2014 05:52 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 05:44 hypercube wrote:On July 05 2014 05:41 oneofthem wrote:US and europe share core interests and values.
LOL no uh yes. some of these posts just show a total lack of awareness for how the rest of the world actually is. newsflash, pretty much everywhere else is much worse Hardly. Not in the sense we are talking about in this thread anyway. No one (as far as I can tell anyway) here is criticizing the US as a country, as in saying that it's worse country than anywhere else. I live here, it's a great, prosperous place that encourages innovation and entrepreneurship and is filled with friendly people. It's research programs are the best in the world by far and US citizens enjoy great civil liberties.
This thread is not about that. This thread is about the fact that outside of her borders "America" is murderous paranoid maniac who, without exaggeration, has made a habit of murdering people, including Europeans, for political gain. The American people are OK with things like drone bombings and the Iraq war and kidnappings of Afghani shepherds in the name of "greater safety" in a way that Europeans simply are not. In this sense the US IS worse. Russia has committed atrocities in Chechnya arguable worse than what the US has done in Afghanistan or Iraq but Russia does not have the political power to drag us along with it. China might be hard on her own citizens in the northwest but she certainly is not killing Europeans over it. So yes as long as America keeps using her superior economic muscles, espionage and subterfuge to bully European leaders around regarding this "War on Terror" Europe desperately needs to band together. We don't need the US as a military ally, the only power that poses any sort of threat to Europe militarily speaking is the US. (And just in case anyone decides to misinterpret me, I obviously don't think that the US and Europe are ever going to go to war with each other, I also don't think that in a make believe world where this happens Europe would stand a sliver of a chance.)
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On July 05 2014 05:42 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On July 05 2014 05:10 KlaCkoN wrote:On July 05 2014 04:49 hypercube wrote:On July 05 2014 03:49 KlaCkoN wrote: Lol they kidnap torture and murder European citizens, they shamelessly insert spies in the government structure. And then they complain that Europeans are poor allies. #America. To be fair they did the kidnappings with the knowledge of European governments. Even in Italy where they 'only' informed their counterparts in military intelligence the CIA agents were subsequently pardoned by the Italian president (who is ironically a communist). The Germans most certainly were not informed re: El-Masri though. And considering the wikileaks stuff about the pressure the Americans put on in order to delay people talking about it afterwards - I'm far from convinced that the Italians actually knew. Rather, it seems far from unlikely that the Italian president was simply told to pardon the CIA people. The head of military intelligence certainly knew. He and his deputy were sentenced to jail for their involvement (although later acquitted due to state secret laws). Berlusconi claimed he hadn't known but he opposed the trial. In any case there are numerous reports of EU governments knowing that the US used their airports to transfer kidnapped people for torture to Egypt. http://www.europarl.europa.eu/sides/getDoc.do?type=IM-PRESS&reference=20090218IPR49768&language=ENBasically it's disingenuous to portray EU governments as unknowing victims. Maybe some were coerced, some were certainly willing participants. And even those can't be proven to have participated, like Germany, continue to defend the perpetrators by refusing to ask for their extradiction. Show nested quote +Europe desperately needs to overcome 2000 years of history and start standing together. Most of Europe's citizens are very hostile to the farce that is the US war on terror. But as long as they are allowed to bully our leaders around individually that simply doesn't matter. Couldn't agree more on that one. This is fair
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