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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On June 23 2013 20:20 Ange777 wrote: ... I am not sure what exactly you are refering to in your question. I'm not really asking a question here. More telling Coag to give reasons for marv=scum, and identifying that the whole "if you didn't vote for DP, you're suspicious" isn't as straightforward since we don't know GK's alignment. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Can you explain your reads on sloOsh (seemingly null) and Coag (strong town) respectively? I have sloOsh at very strong town given how much sense he's making. Also regardless of GK's allignment, he was the hammer vote on the Godfather, which makes me incredibly skeptical of any sort of suspicion on him. As for Coag, I'm not sure what his behavioral tells are, but his vote on DP actually isn't that important. It wasn't made in the last minute scramble, and almost seemed like a throwaway vote made in the middle of D1 when DP had virtually no chance of getting lynched. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
On June 24 2013 04:13 Coagulation wrote: was this in response to someone asking you to re read something? If this isnt a response then its like a 100% scum imo. town aligned player would have zero incentive to say "im not reading today" this is 100% mafia aligned statement. It was half an answer to all the people who wanted to hear more from me after last night and half a statement which actually is not even true as i in fact have reread stuff now that i fell better. I dunno, maybe you next say i am mafia because lies and stuff.. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
I'm not really listening to Coag anymore and I really don't have much to say, but I'm here. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
(I highly doubt scum's going to NK me at this point. I mean this should be obvious considering that somehow people think there's a good possibility there were two scumwagons day one...) The three people I'm most suspicious of right now are: Shao, Corazon, Marv Shao for reasons I've already mentioned. Corazon has been wishy-washy for a good portion of the game. His rationale for voting me is literally something along the lines of "there are like 5 lurkers I don't mind killing, so whatevs I'll lynch this one..." Which is pretty shitty reasoning tbh. Especially when considering he in fact agree with me on my points on Oats, meaning (I'd assume) that he didn't find them scummy. And this was a MAJOR basis for many people voting me at the end of the day. In addition to this the lurking thing, which apparently is his major basis. But why would you vote someone so readily that you've been in agreement with solely on the basis of activity? I mean sure you have to consolidate, but it really doesn't make much sense that you would do just about nothing to voice if anyone else at all stood out to you. You should definitely have SOME KIND OF SCUMREAD that has done SOMETHING SCUMMY you mean to voice your suspicions on. Sure lurkers are scummy for lurking, but town also lurk, and you really haven't done anything at all to distinguish between the two... Add to that the strong stance he took on Hapa that I pointed out earlier. I said it wasn't worth consideration, but looking back if he were town I HIGHLY DOUBT he would have taken so much for granted that Hapa was town in that post. It in fact makes more sense that he'd do this as scum, and he knew Hapa's alignment. On top of that he outright says DP is town with a surprising amount of certainty. Sure, that's ballsy for a scum to do, but that doesn't mean he did so as town. This stance in fact is a very out of place one to take as town. Like what townie is going to be so absolutely trusting so early into day one??? Finally there's his last set of reads, which clearly make no sense from a town perspective. I simply can't visualize a townie making the Ange read in particular, given her contributions to getting scum lynched on DAY 1. All in all, this is a guy with a lot of activity who hasn't had a whole lot of stances on who's scum. He's content to suspect lurkers and be pretty wishy-washy on everyone else. Ange in particular he's gone from "possibly Ange" to "probably not Ange let's not consider lynching her even though I think she's scummy" in very short order when pressured about it. Like what kind of townie does that??? The Oats read I could possibly see a townie making, but everything else just doesn't make sense at all to me from a town perspective. Marv, as I've said hasn't been explicitly scummy this game. However, what I said earlier, as well as what Ange has said (which I agree with), demonstrates to me that he should be someone heavily scrutinized. One thing I'd like to add about Marv is just how strangely he seems to behave post-DP lynch. Post-flip you'd think he'd be happy to lynch scum. However, we get this post: On June 23 2013 08:11 marvellosity wrote: Not sure if I feel good or bad  (And yes, you could say that he's happy here and this is totally out of context and bad and blah blah blah, but to me it doesn't feel like the full-fledged kind of "good job town!" post I would have expected. Like as scum, sure you can fake these kinds of things, but you rarely see townies saying stuff like this, if at all. It's either a yay us! kind of post or no post really at all...) And we get this post, which at least to me seems to take a bit of an angry tone: On June 24 2013 01:56 marvellosity wrote: I'm going to say this right now. The thing we must absolutely not do is let players like gk and ShiaoPi slink by through lynches as town wonderfully lynches into active players. Any of you who played or watched Smurf, think about that game and why I'm saying this. Like I can understand how a townie Marv could say something along this line in different circumstances. But in the context of the DP lynch, with DP (who obviously is the one who's being thought of when making this post) honestly not being all that super-active himself, this feels pretty unwarranted. Add to that that literally the only two people in this game right now who should be looked at heavily that fall under the "lurker" category is Shao and possibly me (I guess... like maybe Adam too but he's actually done a good job of being active so far imho), and what we're left with is the very likely possibility that there's at least one other active scum member. And ON TOP of that, it should be pretty obvious if said lurkers are scum if the active players remain active. They'll be that much easier to be townread or scumread because of their activity, and lurky scum will be that much easier to read from process of elimination. People say all the time stuff like, "If you're town then shape up, and if you're scum then whatevs." And that applies here as well. For Marv as town, it doesn't make sense to me how in the context of this flip he would be anything other than very happy with our strong position. Instead, he seems ambivalent about it at best, and continues some kind of crusade to take out all the scummy looking lurkers while giving just about everyone else in the game townreads. In the context of being scum, it makes more sense to me that he'd behave like this. It's pretty apparent that Marv has some kind of very arrogant, high opinion of his play in general, including his scumgame (not entirely unwarranted given his record). I could very easily visualize how Marv, as scum, would behave like this. I'd imagine he'd be pretty livid of his position, given that basically a large number of people that would be easy targets banded together to lynch DP correctly day one. Including Coag, which is something I could really see getting under Marv's skin. And in that context, his behavior here makes more sense to me as scum than it does as town. Sure, this point I've made may seem a little small or nitpicky to some of you, but Marv's play has felt a little off to me. And this is a piece of it that I've seen that makes more sense to me for Marv from a scum rather than a town perspective. The other parts I've mentioned earlier, as well as what Ange has said, has me leaning on Marv being scum. This is taking into consideration much of the posting Marv has done this game has in fact been fairly pro-town in nature. The problem here is the way he's behaved, as well as the CLEAR SCUM MOTIVATION for some of his actions, makes far more sense as scum than as town. And that I believe that Marv would be fully capable of looking pro-town as scum. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=417453¤tpage=67#1329 Regarding my "general aversion" to voting DP: My attitude is what it is, and I really have nothing to defend in that regard. I always have a general aversion to lynching active players on Day 1, and I almost always try to lynch into lurkers unless there is really compelling evidence otherwise. Also, keep in mind that during most of those quotes, Yamato was talking to me about lynching DP based on what was essentially "Secret Vote" WIFOM. The reasoning didn't resonate with me at all and was making me fairly skeptical of voting DP as a whole. Notably this... Again, taking a generous view of DP, and another shoddy reason for it. Earlier he said he doesn't like assuming it's a mafia ability. Yet he cites the secret vote as a reason to lynch into the lurkers. ... is a big misrepresentation of what I was saying. I was more stating my objections to Yamato's rationale (who was convinced that DP was responsible for the secret vote) and trying to argue on his terms. If you look through my filter and my game history, obviously I have more rationale behind lurker-lynching than a silly Secret Vote. It's something I heavily trend to in all of my town-games because I find it a very effective means of catching mafia on Day 1 with a low-risk attached. Regarding Rayn: On June 24 2013 01:41 slOosh wrote: Eh I gtg for now, but I want to again draw attention to pg 57~60, with regards to the Hapa / rayn interaction. I think Hapa did not engage the discussion honestly but misrepresented rayn's case on him. I'll be back later with more fleshed out description but I hope you guys can start it without me. Particularly people like goodkarma, ShiaoPi, cora and Adam, this new stuff a good place to make contributions. I think I'm being perfectly fair to rayn. Maybe not diplomatic, but fair. I'm more than willing to defend myself when someone approaches me with well-informed and rational suspicion. However in the case of rayn, he is a player that's locked on into two completely irrelevant parts of my filter and calling me scum for it. On top of that, when I see shit like this... On June 24 2013 01:53 raynpelikoneet wrote: I have a terrible hangover so i am not going to try to have more of a headache today by rereading. I am still suspicious of Hapa. I don't think anyone who voted for DP is scum unless GK is scum too, but i find it kinda hard to believe there would be only 2 scum wagons at the end of the day. That does not just sit well with me, especially considering my scumreads are not lurkers. I still think Oats is town for what i have said and i don't like how Hapa was (and apparently is?) unable to understand my read on him. I have no idea why he thought Oats was mafia last night. ... ... it pisses me off a great deal. I'm strictly not going to afford the respect to someone who's not going to re-read the damn thread. That's not a signal of a hangover, that's the signal of confirmation-bias up the ass, and I'd much rather spend my time finding mafia than wasting my time talking to someone who's not going to listen. | ||
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goodkarma
United States1067 Posts
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
I've had 2 main scum reads, and I did not back down off of them really easily. I've been suspicious of Oats since like 20 minutes into the game, and I was suspicious of Yamato and argued back and forth with him and Hapa until Hapa convinced me that I was wrong about my read. When it came down to who to vote for, I chose between someone I strongly believed was town and someone I wasn't sure about. Regarding Hapa, I really believe he is town. I've made multiple posts saying so and giving legitimate reasons why. Did you read them? It's really hard to me to not doubt you here because while I was caring about the lynch and making active choices, you threw your vote down on someone who wasn't getting lynched and said "Hey guys, I'm out, peace". How is that scum hunting? I've done a lot more scumhunting than you have. Your read on me looks just like you are butthurt from my vote on you and you're just trying to put pressure on an easy target. You're not even doing what Ange did. She used it for discussion, while you are using it as the basis of your argument. You realize how scummy that looks? Of course it looks really terrible that I defended DP with a lot of confidence. Anyone with half a brain as scum would see that I would make a good lynch target due to my vote. Being wrong doesn't make me scum, bro. Try again. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
Regarding Cora There are a lot of things I could say about his play, but wishy-washy isn't one of them. Also his reasoning for voting you was pretty much "I think DP is super-town, I will vote anyone except for him"(...which isn't any better, but it isn't what you represent it to be ("lololol there are 5 lurkers let's go and kill GK"). Regarding Shaio One of the reasons that I'm skeptical of your push is along the lines of what Ange said a couple of pages back: On June 23 2013 20:34 Ange777 wrote: To be honest I really don't see scum ShiaoPi right now. Yes, his inactivity is troubling but in I Swear he showed that he can actually play scum differently. Reverting back to his absolutely lurking scum meta from the past just simply does not make any sense for me. From last game, we know the guy is capable of playing an active and engaged scumgame. So why revert to this passive/lurky play? Also, are you sure this passive play of his is exclusive to his scum-games as opposed to his town-games? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
I will say that GK has a really good point about your "read" on Ange. Finally there's his last set of reads, which clearly make no sense from a town perspective. I simply can't visualize a townie making the Ange read in particular, given her contributions to getting scum lynched on DAY 1. All in all, this is a guy with a lot of activity who hasn't had a whole lot of stances on who's scum. He's content to suspect lurkers and be pretty wishy-washy on everyone else. Ange in particular he's gone from "possibly Ange" to "probably not Ange let's not consider lynching her even though I think she's scummy" in very short order when pressured about it. Like what kind of townie does that??? The Oats read I could possibly see a townie making, but everything else just doesn't make sense at all to me from a town perspective. Why would you be suspicious of the person who was the driving force behind the Godfather lynch? And even if you are suspicious, your quotes on her don't come across as very natural... Perhaps Ange, as it would be really easy for scum to cast doubt on me and push for my lynch D2. That got me really suspicious. So you mention that you're "really suspicious" of her right here, but then when someone confronts you about it, you immediately back down to a very non-committal stance: I'm not say Ange is 100% scum and that we should try to lynch her. I'm not even saying Ange looks very scummy and we should thing about lynching her. I'm just saying that it makes me a bit suspicious. And now it's a "bit suspicious". | ||
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ShiaoPi
TAIWAN NUMBAH WAN5955 Posts
just got home from partying 2 nights in a row. what did i miss? ~.~ also any questions while I try to catch up before I fall dead into my bed?? just saying that i am still around but probablu wont be able to post sth more cohernt until like tmr noon when I wake up again. so just ask me stuff you need to onow like right now, wikl do more tmr in a better mental state | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
You were confident enough to drop a "non-hipster vote" on yamato because you believed him/Oats to be scum. You didn't actually think GK was scum in D1 (or did you?), yet you didn't "hipster vote" Oats or yamato. Why is that? | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On June 24 2013 05:01 ShiaoPi wrote: hai guys just got home from partying 2 nights in a row. what did i miss? ~.~ also any questions while I try to catch up before I fall dead into my bed?? just saying that i am still around but probablu wont be able to post sth more cohernt until like tmr noon when I wake up again. so just ask me stuff you need to onow like right now, wikl do more tmr in a better mental state It doesn't sound like you're in any shape to do anything right now. And I doubt you'll be killed tonight anyway. Go to bed, catch up tomorrow, and we expect a lot from you. | ||
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raynpelikoneet
Finland43188 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
You don't get off this easily. I've never seen a town player be as oblivious as to half-claim in the thread like this. It sounds to me like you're contemplating fake claiming. | ||
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Hapahauli
United States9305 Posts
On June 24 2013 05:06 raynpelikoneet wrote: Hapa, let's talk about something else than D1 for a change. You said a lot about solving this game revolves around flipping GK, and if he flipped town you would then look into ShiaoPi and Adam. I can get the ShiaoPi part, but why Adam? And do you actually think GK is mafia or what were you trying to say there? That we should lynch him to have more information on ShiaoPi/Adam? That doesn't really sound like a reason to lynch someone. I was more throwing names out there, and not necessarily concrete examples. For example if GK is mafia, there's an overwhelming chance that the mafia was fairly lurky and passive. Thus the candidates to look into would be very passive players who hadn't had much influence in the game. So Shiao/Adam fit that bill somewhat, though it's not a complete list by any means - after all, why speculate about specifics until I actually know more about GK? Ermmmm sorry I butchered that a bit and forgot my argument a bit. If GK is town, mafia would probably be a passive influence on the GK wagon (players like Adam, Shaio, and maybe marv). If GK is mafia, players on the GK wagon look much better, and it's worth to look into players either avoiding both wagons all together OR those that were extremely passive (also now that I think about it, would probably include Adam and Shaio as well). Regarding Adam and Shaio specificly, I do have reasons to doubt they're mafia. Adam has come across as fairly genuine so far (even with his limited posting). Generally when he's posting as mafia, he just comes across as sounding terrible, illogical, and desperate. I don't get that feeling this game. As for Shiao, I posted my thoughts (directed at GK) just above. Given his mafia performance last game, it doesn't make very much sense for him to slink back into this lurky/wishy-washy game if he rolled mafia again. His wishy-washyness is a null-tell at best I think, and perhaps even a town tell. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On June 24 2013 05:09 yamato77 wrote: You don't get off this easily. I've never seen a town player be as oblivious as to half-claim in the thread like this. It sounds to me like you're contemplating fake claiming. I'm an unlynchable, unkillable Mafia GF/Mayor who has unlimited vigilante bullets and unlimited nightly checks. Oh, and I'm 3P and I win with town, but only if half of the players are dead and one of the mafia players has used a buzzword that the hosts won't tell me. Oh shit, you found me. | ||
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Corazon
United States3230 Posts
On June 24 2013 05:03 raynpelikoneet wrote: Cora, if you are saying you are not wishy washy, then why this: You were confident enough to drop a "non-hipster vote" on yamato because you believed him/Oats to be scum. You didn't actually think GK was scum in D1 (or did you?), yet you didn't "hipster vote" Oats or yamato. Why is that? READ | ||
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yamato77
11589 Posts
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yamato77
11589 Posts
On June 24 2013 05:12 cDgCorazon wrote: I'm an unlynchable, unkillable Mafia GF/Mayor who has unlimited vigilante bullets and unlimited nightly checks. Oh, and I'm 3P and I win with town, but only if half of the players are dead and one of the mafia players has used a buzzword that the hosts won't tell me. Oh shit, you found me. Do you want to die? | ||
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