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On May 03 2013 22:39 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:11 Xequecal wrote:On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard. That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs. The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt. Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop. You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is: 4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins" Lots of ways for Protoss to build order win the game. Now Terran's options: 1/1/1 widow mine drop -> protoss NEVER loses to this anymore, and mines easily mitigated + using planetary nexus 1 rax FE -> abusable by any 1 base all-in, Zero chance to outright win the game There is a huge discrepency in opening build orders where Terran cannot ever outright win a game, whereas Protoss not only has about 10+ more different options, but all of those options can outright win the game because Terran is literally guessing what the Protoss is doing. The other issue is proxy oracles/new cheap DT shrine/+new cheap blink stalker all-in only requiring MSC. These things require completely different responses, and in the case of the first two, you need an e-bay extremely early on in the game, which is 125 minerals + 200 minerals for missile turrets, + the 100 mineral defensive bunker = 425 minerals = Protoss can autowin the game at ZERO risk because they can throw up a nexus that's 400 minerals and then rely on Planetary nexus to hold off anything Terran can do. A lot of times you can play completely "safe" and still lose to all-ins in TvP. There's a problem with the match-up when you're not even being greedy and can still die to 1 base protoss because of your opponent simply executing an opening build order. The risk-reward is not right in opening builds right now, where Protoss has very few to no risks, and Terran can outright lose games from easily executed builds, the most common right now being proxy oracles where even Progamers have lost AFTER SCOUTING THE PROXY STARGATE.
I feel I can usually hold everything except the immortal all ins (especially proxy). My perception is although immortal all in kills me, if I adjusted my build I would crush it and end up very ahead (but die to oracles probably). The protoss chooses their build late enough that they can't know exactly how I'm playing and are effectively cheese coin flipping. They might kill me, or might get crushed and end up reasonably behind (and probably lose). I feel they don't have the scouting info to know which will happen before investing in the specific cheese.
Although the cheese can flat out win, it can also lose, so its just a coin flip and hopefully decent protosses won't do it. I'd be interested to know if you see it similarly.
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On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line...
We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
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On May 03 2013 22:57 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:50 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight. 20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha. On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out. Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse. Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead?
Two reapers Proxy marauder 3 rax marine all in
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On May 03 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line... We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible.
I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles.
On May 03 2013 23:06 drop271 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:57 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:50 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight. 20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha. On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out. Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse. Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead? Two reapers
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
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I actually think the problem lies in ZvP as the Zerg have very hard time penetrating the P base early to mid game and thus most of the time they decide its not worth it and the game ends up going into the late game.
In WOL Zerg's had the option of 2 base roach rush or even 3 base roach rune, but these days protoss are safe from everything zerg can throw at them.
In fact between FF, MC, and few zealots the protoss can deal easily with everything zerg has to offer until hydras which are over the 12th minute.
With terran they do have more options, like drop harass, though yeah I would love to see banshee harass work in TvP actually.
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I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that.
And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
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dont cry just play with brain
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Blizzard has completely taken a crap on Terran early-game over a long period of time. Protoss definitely is too safe in the early game. 1 base allins just aren't viable (or at least not worth it) against protoss and against zerg it's even worse. TvZ there is only one or two general builds.. 2 CC > hellions > 3rd CC bio widow mine.. & 2 CC > hellbat drop > 3rd CC mech or bio/mine.
Don't get me wrong. I prefer macro over 1 base all-ins as a player and a viewer, but really restricting the options for terran could make the game stale in the foreseeable future.
I like that TvT has such a variety of 1 base allins, harass, AND macro.
What I would like to see: - Nerf mothership core/nexus cannon somehow - Reduce research time on Stim + Combat shields (for defense vs 5:20 oracles and all that cheese, and the potential for terran to be aggressive) - Nerf Queens back to what they were before - Make any changes that give terran more options in the early game...siege tank buff was a nice try...
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On May 03 2013 23:06 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line... We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible. I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles.
I wasn't responding to you at all. I was responding to the comment about the 5:33 oracle build that relies having no stalker or warpgate before the stargate is built and how that can be scouted by a SCV.
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On May 03 2013 23:14 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:06 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line... We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible. I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles. I wasn't responding to you at all. I was responding to the comment about the 5:33 oracle build that relies having no stalker or warpgate before the stargate is built and how that can be scouted by a SCV.
Alright, sorry. Didn't realize that, just thought you tried and pull that stunt again
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On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Show nested quote +Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D)
To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
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On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Show nested quote +Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) Exactly and protoss have as much to fear from early terran builds as terran have from protoss. The era of the one rax fast expand or builds that relied solely on marines for defense are at thing of the past. Personally, if I breath a sign of relief when I see that a terran is expanding and not doing some one base non-sense.
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On May 03 2013 23:18 Prog455 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan.
There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker.
I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
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On May 03 2013 23:11 STChobo wrote: dont cry just play with brain
Less QQ more pew pew.
Seriously though if toss is one basing just go mine tank and throw down an ebay if needed. Two tanks with 4-6 mines and marines support shuts any one base play cold. If protoss is playing super greedy + techy with fake collosi tech + fast third just 5 rax SCV all in him at 13-14th minute mark after some drops. If hes playing chargelot archon mix in some hellbats. They do wonders vs that style
If the protoss is shutting down everything either you suck or hes too good.
If you are ByuN you are allowed to play mass ghost viking late game -_-
No terran really wanted to play vs late game protoss back during the last couple months of WoL already, and the new HotS units just gives us more reasons to deny that fact.
Stop trying to play late game TvP, and stop bitching about late game TvP. We are using tier 1-1.5 units vs heavy tier 3+ units. What the heck did you think would happen?
On May 03 2013 23:20 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:18 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan. There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker. I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
No, whatever lead protoss gets in the early game forces the terran to either all in asap and hope for the best, or try and turtle up vs continuous harrasses and just flat die. What makes terran mid game harrass + drop options so strong is that even if we load up 1-2 dropship full of units and go drop, we still have a standing army behind just in case we lose the units, or the protss counter attacks. When the terran player is behind, we simply dont have that many units to contribute to any harrass option.....and usually since we are behind if the protoss sees the drop he'll just shut it down and straight push to win. Thats the main problem with gasless expansions - its too damn risky vs the early harrass play of protoss that forces the terran to turtle up while protoss techs to the composition no terran wishes to deal with.
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It is interesting that in HOTS protoss now have a bunch of ways to be agressive early simply because they have the mothership core to provide vision. The mothership core also allows protoss to be more greedy. I still think Mid game is where Terran can shine. But late game is stupid still. I still am pretty anti protoss I feel like one mess up vs storm and you die, and that simply isn't fair. But no point in complaining about it, just have to play the hand that is dealt or play zerg lol.
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On May 03 2013 23:17 Sated wrote:
You act as if Photon Overcharge deals splash damage and is repairable - it does neither of these things. It certainly will not enable a Protoss to hold a vastly superior force when the Protoss does not have access to sufficient splash-damage.
Which is what he said when speaking about past the 10 minute mark. I don't know what you are argueing at this point. Mid-lategame ? Check the title of the thread.
@BronzeKnee i don't think the OP actually disagrees with that (neither do i)
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On May 03 2013 23:06 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:02 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Zealot Lord wrote:On May 03 2013 21:36 gillon wrote: 5:33? They can have an oracle out by 5:10, that's the norm. SG is going up at proxy position at 3:30~, you start it before stalker and warpgate.
This is ridiculous =/ If they are not building a stalker and warpgate on proper time (which you will see with your scouting scv..), build an ebay and get a turret at your mineral line... We don't talk about the time after the cybercore finishes and the protoss still needs to mine 150 gas. That time is off limits for discussion about scouting and preparing. I mean, sure when that gateway makes no units for the entire build time of the stargate it might tell you something is up and give you time to prepare. But that isn't up for discussion because its impossible. I think you meant to quote me and you should know something. I'm not talking about proxy stargate, I was having a completely different discussion with someone else. This is the second time you tried to checkmate me with "proxy oracle cant have MSC", please stop it. I never once mentioned proxy oracles. Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:06 drop271 wrote:On May 03 2013 22:57 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:55 Plansix wrote:On May 03 2013 22:50 SlixSC wrote:On May 03 2013 22:48 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 19:46 Verator wrote: Old school 2rax openings can do a lot of damage to a greedy protoss now, and drops are still devastating and effective. You just need to learn to bait out a nexus cannon, retreat, then go in right afterwards. The problem is that Nexus Canon last for 20 seconds. Even if you manage to bait it you still can't do anything during that time, and 20 seconds can be a lot of time if you rely on timing attacks. Especially considering how much a single round of warp-ins will change the outcome of a fight. 20 seconds would be nice. It actually lasts for 60 seconds. Which, come to think about it, is pretty ridiculous. It makes baiting Nexus Cannons pretty much pointless, because by the time it expires you already have the next one ready haha. On May 03 2013 22:50 tar wrote: You could write a very similar post about PvT, where Toss players whine they cannot know if there will be mine drops, hellbat drops or even hellion marine drops or a "proxy factory base float" or a classic 3 CC build prioir to the 6:40to 7:00 min mark (earliest hallu scouting). Nexus cannon helps defending a lot, yet the amount of damage a T can inflict within a blink of an eye to a mineral line with 2 hellbats or mines and a speedvac is shocking.
No you couldn't, Protosses use MSC to scout the edge of the terran base and stalkers to check the ramp. It is extremely unlikely that Terran tech will go by unnoticed pretty much ever. And inb4 "MSC too slow", its only slightly slower than marines and can cast timewarp so you can always get out. Wait, I can have the MSC at the edge of the terran base and at home to cast the nexus cannon at the same time? Someone needs to tell Minigun that, because he almost lost his in that game against Apocalypse. Why do you need your mothership core at home at the 4:30 min mark? What could the Terran possibly have that you couldn't just hold off with a single stalker instead? Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss.
Frankly I'd be surprised if anyone is listening to you given that you have vomited up so much shit in this thread that you are probably having to wipe down your keyboard after every post. You just responded to tar's post about unscouted Terran tech by saying it can't be unscouted because you can use an MSC safely. As I said, its not completely safe to scout with the MSC, because there are a definitely ways that Terran can put on pressure before that point. Another ad hominem crack doesn't make you correct, nor does the fact that the example is uncommon, and can be countered. Players (masters and above) take gambles all the time with builds that can be blind countered
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On May 03 2013 23:20 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 23:18 Prog455 wrote:On May 03 2013 23:09 ZenithM wrote:I think it's kind of related: we Terrans have to close our wall with a second depot very early to at least make the Protoss doubt about what we're doing. I don't know for you guys, but I'm still in a kind of autopilot mode where I let the probe enter my base thinking that there isn't much to see anyway. Well now that gas openings are more frequent, and with different timings (12 for reaper, 13 for normal factory, 15 for factory after expand, etc..), we can try to hide that info from them. They don't know, we might even have gone 1 extra rax proxied, and their proxy oracle no unit play is in deep shit against that. Two reapers And this is why people don't listen to you. You can't go double reaper vs. Protoss or else you don't have enough marines to hold off proxy stargates or stalker MSC pressure. It is physically impossible, and nobody in high master or GM will ever do that build because it is an auto-loss. This is actually true, and something you figure out very quickly as Terran (at your first insta loss to stalker msc pressure basically :D) To be honest i doubt that any of the Protoss players i play aganist even care about what they scout. It is very rare that i play against a Protoss that does not go for some kind of semi all-in build order, and i doubt that anything they see is going to change their game plan. There is a reason why some Protoss players don't Probe scout. More often then not, we get to see nothing except a walloff, and with a safe opening and the MSC, we are better off scouting with a Zealot or Stalker. I do agree completely with the thread starter regarding the MSC. However, if early game Protoss is somehow to be nerfed, then mid Terran needs to be nerfed. It is very difficult to hold off Speedvac and multipronged attacks. So whatever lead the Protoss gets in the early game, the Terran has the tools to nullify in the midgame.
Personally I think this is a better dynamic than in WoL, where the protoss sat in fear of stim timings behind 5 sentries and chronoed out colossi. Then it was a slow, boring push to the third base, storms and mass warp gates. The idea that the terran keeps the protoss on 2 bases with drops while expanding it a way more interesting problems to solve.
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On May 03 2013 22:39 avilo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 03 2013 22:11 Xequecal wrote:On May 03 2013 21:51 SlixSC wrote: Ignore Proxy stargate, what about all the other protoss all-ins that do in fact get out a stalker? I personally don't mind proxy oracles, but I am convinced that other Protoss all-ins are actually unscoutable, unless you want to burn 240 minerals in the early game on a scan, that might or might not give you the information you want, so if he's macroing your 240 minerals behind vs. someone who is going double forge (before robo), if he's all-ining you are essentially missing 5 marines for defense. It's loss/loss for Terran.
I'm curious, other than oracle, what other allins are there that are impossible to prepare for? DTs are countered by a turret in the minerals, same as oracles. IMHO, the #1 thing Terran needs to do if they want to be safe against allins is not wall the top of their ramp. Doing this gives an allining Protoss two free depot kills that will probably supply block them for awhile. If Terran doesn't give them those free kills Widow Mines will shit all over any allin that tries to come in through the front, and a single turret will beat both oracle and DT allins. Widow mines are very cheap, you can't complain about having to build them when Protoss has to build a MSC and multiple observers when playing standard. That leaves proxy robo/warp prism but believe me, I know from experience this build is terrible and beats absolutely nothing, you can hold it off completely unscouted with 4-6 marines only. If Protoss starts warping into your base with a warp prism, just pull ALL your SCVs and attack move into it. You can lose every single SCV chasing the prism out and you still win the game because this allin leaves Protoss with 19 workers against your effective 10 (MULES) and he still needs to spend 400 minerals expanding while you can spend those minerals on replacing SCVs. The fact is, Terran is losing to these allins because they themselves are being greedy. They're not building widow mines with the factory for defense, they're using it to make a reactor so they can start double medivac as soon as the starport finishes. Alternately, they do make mines, but they're not used for defense, they're sent out with the first medivac in a drop attempt. Terran does not get to complain about Protoss being greedy when they whine about being crushed by an allin after opening 1/1/1 while expanding, and then sending their first 4 marines and 2 mines out with the first medivac to attempt a drop. You have zero clue what you're talking about. There is: 4 gate MSC blink stalker allin 4 gate 3 gate "pressure" 3 gate DT expand -> can autowin game 3 gate robo immortal all in -> can autowin Proxy robo immortal all in -> you have to find it, don't know if it's stargate or this Proxy stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, and keep protoss 100% safe if they keep making oracles In-base stargate oracle -> can autowin the game, you do not 100% know it's in their base Proxy 4 gate with proxied gateways Proxied twilight council -> blink stalker allin can autowin game Proxied dt shrine -> can autowin the game 4 gate warp prism -> no one does it anymore, but it can be a freewin if they disguise it as any of the other all-ins Fast MSC + 2 stalker kill 2 depots for free pressure at no cost Play standard macro game with 7 minute Planetary nexus -> can autowin a macro game if Terran 1 bases to defend "all-ins"
Did you even READ my post, like, at all? I just said I think Terran needs to stop depot walling the top of their ramp to avoid donating 2 supply depots for free against allins.
Like I just said, anything that beats Oracles also beats DTs. DTs are just bad before the late game where you can try to backstab expansions, if they have a single turret you lose the game automatically.
Widow mines annihilate void ray allins and blink allins. I've seen blink allin beaten unscouted just by Terran abandoning their natural and continuing to tech, then steamrolling Protoss when stim and medivacs come out. 4 gate warp prism is an awful, awful strat that beats nothing, you can beat it with 6 marines and all your SCVs. And come on, 4-gate? That's been dead since 1.02. I have fond memories of 6 stalkers and 4 zealots losing to 3 marines in an unkillable bunker.
If you make an early e-bay and 2 widow mines for defense as soon as your factory finishes you can beat any allin there is. This is not super expensive. It doesn't stop you from expanding.
Terrans are, quite frankly, playing ridiculously greedy out of some pathological fear of the late game, and are trying to defend allins with 1 rax marines only. They feel that if they can't inflict huge damage with drops in the midgame the game is lost, so they cut every corner to get the drops going ASAP.
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