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On March 21 2013 12:25 Swift118 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 12:02 Stratos_speAr wrote:On March 21 2013 11:47 Assirra wrote:On March 21 2013 11:07 Grumbels wrote:On March 21 2013 10:41 Hungry Cerberus wrote:
I love Starcraft, I want to play the game that Blizzard hooked me with, not engage in boss battles, space themed mini games, and an endless parade of single base-limited-resource-attack-the baddie-right-this-moment missions. WOL and HOTS are intended to be unique experiences because we already know what to expect from Starcraft, as most of the units are essentially identical to the previous game. Blizzard is trying to offer something new, but as an RTS fanatic, I am desperate for the basic tried and true RTS campaigns of old and the functional and game enhancing stories that go with it. But as the OP said, Blizzard doesn't make games for me.
It feels to me like the single player seeks to draw in a casual audience that recognizes Kerrigan on the cover. The function of the campaign then is to hammer home the identity of the main characters, to ensure that newer generations will keep finding them iconic and as a result will buy more Blizzard games in the future. Therefore the campaign is primarily designed to not be too offensive, it's not supposed to really challenge anyone, it just has to somewhat entertain people for a couple of hours, while they absorb the atmosphere and learn to recognize the characters. This becomes obvious when half of the missions aren't even an RTS. It's almost like Blizzard is ashamed of the game's core gameplay and tries to hide it behind mini games and excursions into more fashionable genres like MOBAs and RPGs. And the actual Starcraft that you can play in the single player is rather simplistic. I was thinking about how novices to RTS games would feel about it based on their experience with HotS's single player. In most of the missions you can start out establishing an economy, this is a rather trivial task in itself; then you produce the unit of your choice; then you attack move and kill the enemy. There is just nothing to it, all parts of this are extremely simple. This simplicity works very well in multiplayer because there your opponent can fight back and more complex dynamics emerge, but the computer just sits still and doesn't put any pressure on you, so what's the point? Ashamed? Gameplay wise Starcraft 2 has the best single player in an RTS exactly because it so varied. Having 30 missions of "you build base and kill enemy" is so silly. You want that? Do skirmish against the AI or multiplayer. This is exactly what Blizzard tried to prevent and i applaud them for it. While the SC2 campaigns have been fun gamplay-wise, I can think of many RTS's that have had more enjoyable campaigns. Examples: Homeworld (and expansion) Homeworld 2 Sacrifice Warcraft 3 (and expansion) Warlords Battlecry 2 Starcraft (and expansion) Dawn of War (and expansions) Dawn of War 2 (and expansions) Battle for Middle Earth 2 Why? Because all of these actually have you playing an RTS (instead of throwing in cheesy RPG-esque fights), they are actually difficult, and they come with writing that isn't so incredibly insulting to the brain that it forcefully pulls you out of the gameplay experience. Apart from wc3 and sc1 I am not sure I would any others of that list ahead of of HotS tbh as there are some pretty mediocre games on it. TA, wc2, some titles from the C&C series and AoE1&2 would have been some better ones to choose from the RTS genre.
While Dawn of War is really a game for 40k fans to enjoy and Sacrifice/WBC2 are almost completely unknown games, Homeworld is one of the single best RTS games ever made bar none, so to lump it in the "mediocre" category should entail a smack upside the head. The story and atmosphere are absolutely fantastic and the gameplay is incredibly enjoyable and very difficult.
To be fair, he never reviewed the story at all in that review, only the gameplay.
You should read the first third of the review. Here, I'll make it easy.
Heart of the Swarm's story can't fix the fact that the plot of the StarCraft II trilogy is a deluge of cliches hurtling toward a predictable "warring races unite to confront a powerful god-like enemy" conclusion (gosh, where have we seen that before?), but at least it feels like it's actually trying now. Little time is wasted in reversing Sarah Kerrigan's de-zergification at the end of Wings of Liberty – a decision she wrestles with for the entire... tutorial – and setting her out on a quest for long-overdue revenge against Dominion Emperor Arcturus Mengsk. Don't expect many surprises, but the cinematics are of the beautiful quality we've come to expect from Blizzard, so at least it looks good. It's a relief, at least, to see that this time Kerrigan is treated like an actual character who prides herself in her use of cunning as opposed to the blindly rampaging, smack-talking monster of Wings of Liberty. Blizzard does a reasonably good job of transitioning her to a non-evil but still dangerous state of mind. She'll now go out of her way to avoid slaughtering innocents, but still finds ample opportunity to mercilessly order her swarm of alien bug monsters to "kill them all!" when facing an enemy. This crew of monsters is by far more memorable than Raynor's bunch. Despite cliche-heavy dialogue, I enjoyed chatting with her zerg lieutenants aboard her ship between missions, especially resident genetic engineer and gross caterpillar-like creature, Abathur. His ethics-free conversations with Kerrigan are a good way to showcase her newfound morality, while exposing more of the zerg backstory. I was glad to only have to put up with Captain Bland...I mean Horner... for the one non-zerg mission where you control Jim Raynor's battlecruiser, Hyperion, in a great little space battle. That one's a welcome intermission that wisely doesn't make you re-learn how to play as terran to succeed.
In case we're wondering, not a single good thing was said about the story in WoL's review.
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On March 21 2013 11:47 Assirra wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 11:07 Grumbels wrote:On March 21 2013 10:41 Hungry Cerberus wrote:
I love Starcraft, I want to play the game that Blizzard hooked me with, not engage in boss battles, space themed mini games, and an endless parade of single base-limited-resource-attack-the baddie-right-this-moment missions. WOL and HOTS are intended to be unique experiences because we already know what to expect from Starcraft, as most of the units are essentially identical to the previous game. Blizzard is trying to offer something new, but as an RTS fanatic, I am desperate for the basic tried and true RTS campaigns of old and the functional and game enhancing stories that go with it. But as the OP said, Blizzard doesn't make games for me.
It feels to me like the single player seeks to draw in a casual audience that recognizes Kerrigan on the cover. The function of the campaign then is to hammer home the identity of the main characters, to ensure that newer generations will keep finding them iconic and as a result will buy more Blizzard games in the future. Therefore the campaign is primarily designed to not be too offensive, it's not supposed to really challenge anyone, it just has to somewhat entertain people for a couple of hours, while they absorb the atmosphere and learn to recognize the characters. This becomes obvious when half of the missions aren't even an RTS. It's almost like Blizzard is ashamed of the game's core gameplay and tries to hide it behind mini games and excursions into more fashionable genres like MOBAs and RPGs. And the actual Starcraft that you can play in the single player is rather simplistic. I was thinking about how novices to RTS games would feel about it based on their experience with HotS's single player. In most of the missions you can start out establishing an economy, this is a rather trivial task in itself; then you produce the unit of your choice; then you attack move and kill the enemy. There is just nothing to it, all parts of this are extremely simple. This simplicity works very well in multiplayer because there your opponent can fight back and more complex dynamics emerge, but the computer just sits still and doesn't put any pressure on you, so what's the point? Ashamed? Gameplay wise Starcraft 2 has the best single player in an RTS exactly because it so varied. Having 30 missions of "you build base and kill enemy" is so silly. You want that? Do skirmish against the AI or multiplayer. This is exactly what Blizzard tried to prevent and i applaud them for it.
The experience isn't "varied" in a good sense, and it's varied for the sake of being varied. Yes I'd like to build up a base, expand, and take out my enemy. That's generally what an RTS is. SC and BW did it epicly. Every mission was different but was still founded on that concept. You don't have that in ANY mission in friggin' SC2 WoL or HOTS. The last friggin' mission of the campaign you won on 2bases. Which, mind you, even on Brutal, you secured your second base with your INITIAL STARTING ARMY WTF. Things like "you have to defend Jim Raynor" made it interesting, although impossible to do correctly on your first play through if you weren't expecting it. For example, my first time playing that mission on brutal, within the first 10 seconds of "discovering" Jimmy and him setting up, he was already being overrun... he didn't even get the blasted bunker up! I don't mind replaying missions for these reasons... these timings... I enjoyed those, kept me on my toes. I like that, being kept on my toes. None of hte other missions but the final mission did that. Still wish I had to expand beyond 2 (basically starting with 2 as well mind you) bases.
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Great post, hell of an interesting read.
I'm not going to expand my thoughts as you did but I just loved all of hots. The campaign was fun as hell and and ending perfect in my book. So many feelings expressed through so few words. There's always this issue of Kerrigan going through far for her revenge, but she had no limits for very obvious reasons. What Mengsk did to her (personally) was unforgivable, and Jim understands. It goes beyond all of his past crimes.
In the end, when Jim shows his understanding of the entire situation, all is perfect in the world for those two, who have been through so much.
I do agree with the above poster that there could of been some more 'RTS' mission, but tbh I play thousands of ladder games, my mechanics don't need validation. Even on brutal, whenever I was able to get a quick expo, I could tech directly to broodlord infestor and roll over everything. It was hilarious and I only had 2 expos, lol.
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On March 21 2013 12:35 Steel wrote:
Great post, hell of an interesting read.
I'm not going to expand my thoughts as you did but I just loved all of hots. The campaign was fun as hell and and ending perfect in my book. So many feelings expressed through so few words. There's always this issue of Kerrigan going through far for her revenge, but she had no limits for very obvious reasons. What Mengsk did to her (personally) was unforgivable, and Jim understands. It goes beyond all of his past crimes.
In the end, when Jim shows his understanding of the entire situation, all is perfect in the world for those two, who have been through so much.
How was it unforgiveable? I never even understood such a premise. Was her life significantly more (morally) valuable than all the other Terrans that were left behind to the swarm? Than all the other humans that were killed or were collateral damage or fucked over somehow by Mengsk before that when she served him (or whoever, really?).
I'm genuinely surprised how many people thought the campaign was super fun though, I just simply really hated it... I still have BW in my head I guess. I feel like they just ruined the characters. In BW, every mission felt absolutely crucial... in WoL and HOTS they felt gimmicky and unnecessary... gameplay aside. Gameplay itself was OK. But I feel like you play the campaign primarily for the story, not as much the gameplay... (which as said, 1base or 2base every map was fairly lame...).
EDIT: I didn't even need BL/Infestor. I won every single map with mass ling pretty much. Wild mutation + speedling + raptor ling > any unit, really. Oh what, I have 20+ lings with 235 HP, starting off with 7 dmg instead of 5, 2x attack speed, and fucking insta surround my enemies?! With that ability, I just took my initial starting army and wiped out the enemy almost everytime...
I'd love the mechanical validation. Make Brutal hard as fuck, make it hard for the players in top masters to beat, make them struggle like shit to take another expansion. Adds to the epicness, imo. The epicness of you playing the underdog overcoming the super entrenched, superior enemy... I still remember the SC:BW mission where you had to choose between getting destroyed by BCs or nukes early on by Mengsk. Now THAT was fun and epic to me.
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On March 21 2013 12:28 Stratos_speAr wrote:Show nested quote +To be fair, he never reviewed the story at all in that review, only the gameplay. You should read the first third of the review. Here, I'll make it easy. Show nested quote +Heart of the Swarm's story can't fix the fact that the plot of the StarCraft II trilogy is a deluge of cliches hurtling toward a predictable "warring races unite to confront a powerful god-like enemy" conclusion (gosh, where have we seen that before?), but at least it feels like it's actually trying now. Little time is wasted in reversing Sarah Kerrigan's de-zergification at the end of Wings of Liberty – a decision she wrestles with for the entire... tutorial – and setting her out on a quest for long-overdue revenge against Dominion Emperor Arcturus Mengsk. Don't expect many surprises, but the cinematics are of the beautiful quality we've come to expect from Blizzard, so at least it looks good. It's a relief, at least, to see that this time Kerrigan is treated like an actual character who prides herself in her use of cunning as opposed to the blindly rampaging, smack-talking monster of Wings of Liberty. Blizzard does a reasonably good job of transitioning her to a non-evil but still dangerous state of mind. She'll now go out of her way to avoid slaughtering innocents, but still finds ample opportunity to mercilessly order her swarm of alien bug monsters to "kill them all!" when facing an enemy. This crew of monsters is by far more memorable than Raynor's bunch. Despite cliche-heavy dialogue, I enjoyed chatting with her zerg lieutenants aboard her ship between missions, especially resident genetic engineer and gross caterpillar-like creature, Abathur. His ethics-free conversations with Kerrigan are a good way to showcase her newfound morality, while exposing more of the zerg backstory. I was glad to only have to put up with Captain Bland...I mean Horner... for the one non-zerg mission where you control Jim Raynor's battlecruiser, Hyperion, in a great little space battle. That one's a welcome intermission that wisely doesn't make you re-learn how to play as terran to succeed.
I don't consider it a review if he doesn't even spend a 1/3 of the review actually reviewing the story. He mentions it and doesn't nearly come close to reviewing it like the chap here did (who did a fantastic job too). That is not a review of the story at all, but rather a review on the narration, which is perfectly valid. Yeah he states that there is that primary cliche, but that aside he quickly states it's getting better then proceeds with a summary that basically outlines the rest of the review without touching on gameplay yet.
I'm also primarily talking about HotS. Everyone knows WoL has plenty of faults, but I do not feel you can justly compare HotS to the Prequels without trying to find ways to be overcritical.
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This story is so full of plot holes, oddities and cheesiness that it's beyond redemption. What a shame...
Regarding the gameplay, I am not satisfied either.
The campaign was too much like a RPG game instead of a RTS. There is too much focus in Kerrigan instead of focus on the Zerg themselves. Given the concept of the Swarm it would be much more interesting to command massive Zerg armies instead of walking around babysitting Kerrigan. I wished the focus was on the armies and in the strategy instead of focus in a single boring and inconsistent character like Kerrigan.
The campaign difficulty is dumbed down. The dialogs are dumbed down. Everything is made to the lowest common denominator. There are no larva injects, not enough bases and not enough units.
The missions are too constrained and scripted. You just need to attack-move Kerrigan and spam silly abilities throughout a predetermined outcome. Many of them are shameless copies from D3 and WoL.
The evolution missions area an abomination. They are boring, redundant and make no sense.
I have not experienced the Swarm and its power or a grandiose campaign; I experienced the tale of Kerrigan and the seven zerglings.
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As I've said in another thread, the only thing that really really bugged me about HotS was that I knew immediately Jim wasn't actually dead since they spoiled it in one of the trailers by using a line of dialogue he doesn't use before he "dies" ("Sarah... what have you done?" in the prison cell). Admittedly I didn't think Blizzard would kill him anyway and I'd have doubted it without the spoiler, but I never believed it for a second.
I despise it when things are spoiled in adverts/previews.
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I applaud you for making this post. It has disturbed me for quite some time that nobody has really brought this up. Fortunately you took the time to come up with a well thought out post, and I am thankful for that. And I completely agree. The storys of Wings and Swarm were absolutely appalling. It felt like a total smack in the face for a veteran of the series who was justly expecting a story of the same quality as the past.
Thanks for taking the time to write this.
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It's simply the style of Blizzard storytelling that you're not happy with, and the story wasn't the one you wanted. If from this point forward you divorce yourself from any and all Blizzard games, you were already looking to justify your decision, and HOTS' storyline was the last straw.
It's coming from the lens of a person who already harbored a dislike for the game and barely convinced himself to buy it. Further, from your background, you state you have a high standard that is understandable, however you do forgive the many cliches and plot holes present even in the BW campaign.
As others here have said better than I, it sounds like you have an axe to grind with Blizzard.
The real truth here? You wanted a movie. A movie which has the right hooks, in the right places, to introduce gameplay. I'm not sure you understand why you were so angry just because one boss fight reminded you of the battle vs Belial. Could it be, that maybe Blizzard in fact, intended that? They do all kinds of stuff like that throughout the game.
Honestly - you were looking for a way out, and HOTS gave you that.
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On March 21 2013 13:13 D_K_night wrote:
It's simply the style of Blizzard storytelling that you're not happy with, and the story wasn't the one you wanted. If from this point forward you divorce yourself from any and all Blizzard games, you were already looking to justify your decision, and HOTS' storyline was the last straw.
It's coming from the lens of a person who already harbored a dislike for the game and barely convinced himself to buy it. Further, from your background, you state you have a high standard that is understandable, however you do forgive the many cliches and plot holes present even in the BW campaign.
As others here have said better than I, it sounds like you have an axe to grind with Blizzard.
The real truth here? You wanted a movie. A movie which has the right hooks, in the right places, to introduce gameplay. I'm not sure you understand why you were so angry just because one boss fight reminded you of the battle vs Belial. Could it be, that maybe Blizzard in fact, intended that? They do all kinds of stuff like that throughout the game.
Honestly - you were looking for a way out, and HOTS gave you that.
...No. Blizzard wrote a fucking atrocious story, and we're calling them out on it. You're the one trying to find a way out of holding Blizzard accountable for terrible writing. It's not that we didn't get the story we liked, it's that we didn't get a story that made any sense.
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None of Blizzard's games have ever had good stories. The only thing that has changed since the 90s is people have way higher expectations and for whatever reason it's in to bash on Blizzard nowadays. Holding BW/WC3 stories and B.Net 1.0 as being amazing is just silliness/nostalgia.
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On March 21 2013 12:18 Jasiwel wrote:
With the exception of Jimmy somehow having his revolver in his cell (yeah, what was up with that?) Kerrigan gives it to Jim. Rewatch closely.
I want this note to be written in blood across the entire TL banner, because every second person keeps talking about it.
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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
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Was it me or did Stukov's resurrection turn him German? :\
His accent got really weird at times...
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A very concise review, indeed! I felt like Heart of the Swarm was an improvement over Wings of Liberty in quality, but it is rather jarring and not congruent.
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On March 21 2013 13:38 figq wrote:Show nested quote +On March 21 2013 12:18 Jasiwel wrote:
With the exception of Jimmy somehow having his revolver in his cell (yeah, what was up with that?) Kerrigan gives it to Jim. Rewatch closely. I want this note to be written in blood across the entire TL banner, because every second person keeps talking about it.
I had a feeling that's what happened. Maybe it's the only way it makes sense, but for some reason (maybe my watchful eyes caught it and I didn't notice) I always felt she'd given him the revolver.
On March 21 2013 13:44 Antisocialmunky wrote:
Was it me or did Stukov's resurrection turn him German? :\
His accent got really weird at times...
Well, when you're infested by Zerg....
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On March 21 2013 13:30 oxxo wrote:
None of Blizzard's games have ever had good stories. The only thing that has changed since the 90s is people have way higher expectations and for whatever reason it's in to bash on Blizzard nowadays. Holding BW/WC3 stories and B.Net 1.0 as being amazing is just silliness/nostalgia.
I don't know about you, but my from my memory I really loved some parts of Brood War/Starcraft, particularly emperor Mengsk's speech when he founds the dominion, or Samir Duran's mysterious speech to Zeratul. I disliked Kerrigan because her character was just about petty revenge which was stupid to me, but loved the overmind and his meaningful goal of evolving the swarm and seeking perfection (again, great speeches). Basically the writing was incredibly good, and some cutscenes were classic and memorable (infested science center, the intro to starcraft I, among so many others). I didn't dislike them then, and I don't dislike them now. I don't think you can really, credibly claim to know how people feel about this game  .
These were really interesting, powerful ideologies from interesting characters. I think its undeniable that the stories we get today aren't as good as they used to be, they seem like Hollywood writing. Everything in Starcraft just seemed more realistic, more natural...more realistic. It just felt like an adult game, I don't know how to explain it.
When I play SC2, it feels more like I'm playing a movie, with epic scenes. I feel like the game isn't as mature and realistic as the old games were...its now much more focused on creating a romantic interplay between Sarah and Raynor, and also adding in fun, interesting places to go to make the game interesting, like an adventure game. Besides that, they have the prophecy which is kind of lame, but I don't think I ever liked that about the protoss.
I think where I differ from this review, is that aside from Zerus and the origins of the zerg (which I didn't properly learn before this review), the story does seem plausible, even if it is a little predictable and fairy tale like. Particularly with Kerrigan and Raynor's affection for her, I just view it as Raynor realizing Kerrigan had changed (I simply imagine that infestation truly did corrupt her, as well as Amon's lingering influence), in combination with the passage of time, allowing his anger to diminish.
I guess if you're one of those people who know the lore inside and out, and expect a very serious following of canon, then you would be upset. But I don't care that much or know that much, and so I enjoyed the story quite a bit, as well as the romance between Raynor and Kerrigan. I liked the ending too (I hoped the little zergling would reappear too  ). Many of the contradictions people see I can easily rationalize or imagine a solution to, although perhaps a more technical, exact, rigorous reading of canon would show that my explanations are not possible.
I think that Blizzard probably did bend the story, but they bent it in ways that made it a fun, movie-like adventure. I hope there's a nice happy ending where Kerrigan is turned into a human again, gets together with Raynor, and then the cute little zergling jumps out and gets adopted as their pet lol. Yeah its silly, but I guess I don't take it so seriously as others do. Perhaps too much time has passed, and I find it easier to just enjoy a game than mercilessly critique it based on canon (not that there's anything wrong with that, if that's what you naturally do!)
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On March 21 2013 13:30 oxxo wrote:
None of Blizzard's games have ever had good stories. The only thing that has changed since the 90s is people have way higher expectations and for whatever reason it's in to bash on Blizzard nowadays. Holding BW/WC3 stories and B.Net 1.0 as being amazing is just silliness/nostalgia.
It is absolutely not nostalgia. There is a definite difference in the quality of the story. SC/BW managed to make the campaign feel like every mission was further advancing you while you were on the constant brink of survival. Throughout it you were encountering manipulative, backstabbing characters with distinct personalities. The dialogue wasn't remotely as cheesy or cliche.
In SC:BW the plots were simply awesome, even going back and replaying it (which I've done). Nothing felt super forced, like "Wow Tal'Darim are suddenly worshipping the hybrids and working for Narud, even though in WoL you were Terran killing the Tal'Darim on behalf of Narud's orders..." That was nothing more than an excuse to have a TvP level.
In SC, you got to experience a ZvZ because wow, all of a sudden a Protoss (dark templar, never previously encountered) managed to kill a cerebrate causing the Zerg to go rogue and the overmind was unable to respawn Zasz. You managed to have a PvP because you were forced to recruit said Dark Templar because you found it was a way to kill the Zerg cerebrates when they had been outcasted from the Khala. You had TvP because you were trying to conduct an experiment with a Psi Emitter on the Zerg and were preventing the Protoss from wiping out the Zerg infestation. And in the Protoss campaign, there was no PvT because there simply wasn't a need for it... so it simply wasn't forced.
It wasn't nostalgia. It was simply a difference in quality. A massive difference. If blizzard failed to raise the bar but kept it constant, people would be happy. But they dropped it, and not even slightly.
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Maybe I'll give it a full read in the future - probably not. (No offence intended.)
I read about half (every other section or so) and I pretty much agree with what you're saying.
When first revealed, I wasn't worried about the story being split into 3 parts (2 expansions). However, IMO, HotS suffers the same way every "trilogy sequel" does.
However, my biggest gripe was with the actual missions. You were spot on with many of them being recycled and I was not a fan of the rpg/hero elements (It just felt like it was aimed at the non-sc2 crowd) and it felt easy and underwhelming. (Compare the last mission in WoL vs HotS.)
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On March 21 2013 13:13 D_K_night wrote:
It's simply the style of Blizzard storytelling that you're not happy with, and the story wasn't the one you wanted. If from this point forward you divorce yourself from any and all Blizzard games, you were already looking to justify your decision, and HOTS' storyline was the last straw.
It's coming from the lens of a person who already harbored a dislike for the game and barely convinced himself to buy it. Further, from your background, you state you have a high standard that is understandable, however you do forgive the many cliches and plot holes present even in the BW campaign.
As others here have said better than I, it sounds like you have an axe to grind with Blizzard.
The real truth here? You wanted a movie. A movie which has the right hooks, in the right places, to introduce gameplay. I'm not sure you understand why you were so angry just because one boss fight reminded you of the battle vs Belial. Could it be, that maybe Blizzard in fact, intended that? They do all kinds of stuff like that throughout the game.
Honestly - you were looking for a way out, and HOTS gave you that.
After reading all of his post. Do you really believe that the romance of kerrigan and Jim ever existed in sc1? It hard to say after reading OP. He found great evidence in change with the transition from sc1 to sc2. It almost like the writer died and a completely new writer was given the task of finishing off sc2. Harboring dislike or not, you can not defend the romance and how it was suddenly just forced onto sc2. Jim and Kerrigan character and personality was completely changed. The only one that still SEEMS to be in context with their personality is Zeratul and Mengsk which just ended up being a dry generic evil clique villian thus never really had a personality to begin with.
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