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This thread is going nowhere and I'm tired of dealing with it. Either drop the personal attacks and whining and replace it with actual discussion or it'll be closed.
12:09 KST Page 98 |
France9034 Posts
On June 22 2012 02:10 TeeTS wrote: Regardless of how the metagame evolves and if a solution is found...
The queen range buff is just purely wrong!
Just have a close look at what you get for 150 minerals and pool tech:
175 HP, Armor 1 - that's quite a lot for this cost. Units with even little more costs have usually less HP (Stalker 160, siege tank 160).
Only unit type bio and psyonic - All units that have neither armored nor light are incredible strong in SC2, since a lot of units have bonus dmg against one of those types - combined with the large amount of HP this is pretty strong!
This unit can heal via Transfusion at a rate of 2,5hp per Energy spent (for comparison: medivac heals at 3hp per Energy). Transfusion heals 125 hp per cast, therefor it may generate overheal and is not useful to heal units with little total HP numbers.
Ground attack: 8 DPS, Range 5 (comparison, a Stalker has 6,9 DPS against non armored units!) Air attack: 9 DPS, Range 7
The attack of the queen is often described as a tiggle. But if you compare it to real fighting units, it becomes very clear, that this is not the case. And with Range 5, they can be seen as a normal range unit.
To sum it up: For 150 minerals and very low tech you get a very tough range unit, with decent DPS and range against ground and decent DPS and large range against air, that can heal high HP units and buildings!!! nearly as good as a medivac. Oh and yeah, there are those tiny things like Larva inject and creep tumors that I forgot to mention....
If you don't judge this as imbalanced (because there is simply NO unit at the other races that has this much of a total package in it with this small pricetag), I don't know..... I just simply don't know then.....
I'm surprised this wasn't raised before, because even if we can check that easily, this a pretty vertiginous cost/effectiveness ratio when you think about it...
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Why don't we make a custom map with with 3 larvas per inject instead of 4? Test things out a bit instead of complaining. Blizzard won't hear you here anyway.
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On June 22 2012 02:11 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:49 superstartran wrote:On June 22 2012 01:45 Plansix wrote:On June 22 2012 01:16 Doodsmack wrote:On June 22 2012 00:40 ntssauce wrote:On June 22 2012 00:32 Doodsmack wrote: Hey guys, it's impossible that Terrans could still figure out a way to deal with this problem against Zerg. After all, there's no precedent for Terrans complaining about an imbalance for a long period of time without trying out different options that later turned out to work. Not even when they cried that BL/infestor was OP after the fungal buff but HADN'T EVEN TRIED USING GHOSTS. Nope, what should have happened was Blizzard should have reversed the fungal buff within one month because lots of Terran pros were complaining and they hadn't found a solution.
Smarten up. ok ok man chill out, we'll start using a t3 unit against a hatch tech unit now NP! ok case closed... omg you guys suggest the weirdest things in your search for an excuse that this buff has not screwed TvZ. Why would we have to build a t3 unit ( raven ghost whatever that costs mins+ gas , to stop your fuing hatch tech unit. i mean honestly. Reading comprehension. I wasn't saying ghosts and Ravens should be used against queens. I was saying Terran still might develop strategies/timings to deal with their difficulties against Zerg right now. Keep in mind, every single time there's a balance change that gives people a hard time they start speaking with the same conviction and doom and gloom that you see in this thread. Fungal buff, khaydarin amulet, etc. Back then people were saying "i win button" and "HTs are now obsolete" left and right. Anyone now saying that it's over for Terran is, frankly, not discerning enough to have learned any lessons about balance changes after two years of WoL. We are going to be cheering the terran who starts using the raven as a dector. Not as an active unit, but a passive one that is only used for its vision. There are so many professional games lately where infestors burrow and sneak into or beyond the tank line. One or two ravens would make them think twice about risking such a pricey unit. However,because terrans have never use it, zergs abuse the mobility and stealth of the unit. That and pushing back creep would be much cheaper. Forget the spells, those are like a bonus. PDD is cool, but should only be used to protect vikings from corruptors. Forget HSC. Mobil detection in the terran army will do wonders for pushing back creep. It may be pricey gas wise, but 3-6 scans costs a lot too. Ravens can only start to make it late into the game, by the time you can get them feasibly without straight dying to a Roach/Bane bust you have given free 4 bases along with complete map control to the Z. I would like to start seeing more Ravens later in the game for detection and possible auto turret zoning, but it's still a pretty bad unit for the most part. Anyone who says "just build a Banshee/Raven" is just plain out stupid. STC tried that gimmicky build against Nestea and it hardly worked, and he expended so much gas early it's very possible he could have straight died to a Roach/Bane bust if Nestea knew he was doing that. I agree that the unit has almost no place in the early game and cost far to much gas to be effective. But the amount of minerals spend on scans to keep the creep spread down in the mid and game is to much. At a point in the game where the terran is struggling to keep up in macro and production, the cost of scans could be funneled into factories and raxs. I am not saying just get a raven. But, as a protoss player, I see the need for terran to have mobil detection in their army. I would like to see a player got the raven in the "late" mid game with the following rules: 1: I will use the raven for detection. 2: I will not use it agressively and avoid risking it 3: I will use its abilities to defend my units and support them I would like to see how it changes the way terrans are able to play. Clearly there are times when you don't want a raven(aka, against mutas), but mobile detection that only has one up front cost could free up a lot of minerals down the line.
Terran struggles to expand beyond 3 Bases in most Maps against Zerg. Mules don't really benefit you if you can't expand any further so you're going to have Scans anyway and don't need a Raven for this function. . Its not like you won't build enough workers for 3 Bases . You do and Muling at that point is only beneficial for a while after that you just become outmined way quicker.
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On June 22 2012 01:48 Theovide wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:43 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 22 2012 01:39 megid wrote:On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote: Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Like...wow. Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished. There are more terrans than protoss/zerg in GSL r16. + A terran won the last season. It was an unfair pick because it didn't have all tournaments (e.g. Code S) All zergs where out of Code S when the patch hit, how many times do people have to say that to make zergs realize that? ._.
yeah looks like zerg needed a buff then...if u wanna look at all those tourneys that show low T representation then wanna talk about how zerg have always had low rep in GSL?
and im not really convinced yet if saying GSL allows for lots of preparation is a valid excuse for T being decent in GSL. once the BW players come on board, they are going to show another level of preparation/practice (yeah ok maybe korean sc2 players already practice a lot but we cant compare yet). and even in shorter tourneys, ur going to have to study and prepare for opponents. u cant say "okay lets balance the game for when all the races dont prepare specific builds and jus play all around strategies." therefore, i still dont believe it is wrong to look at GSL as an indicator of balance.
with that said, i do believe the queen buff currently looks too strong. but these reasons (low Terran representation in tourneys, DRG interview about GSL) you are giving are bs.
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On June 21 2012 18:58 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 18:29 Tryagain4free wrote:On June 21 2012 18:16 -Archangel- wrote: Just yesterday on Ret stream he played Lucifron who managed to get into his main with 3-4 helions and roast some drones. Ret depended on 3 queens and not spines for defense. So I guess mass queens are not as good as some people think. Isn't it a bit misleading to talk about one game of Ret, who is known to be the greediest Zerg out there. And furthermore, how about giving some details? How many drones did he lose? Did Lucifron loose any of his hellions? This is so cool! Lucifron invests 150/100 into fact, 50/50 for a reactor and another 400 to get 4 hellions out. Boom! 600/200 spent to pressure the Zerg. In the meantime Ret spends 150 minerals to get an extra queen (or even 450, if he actually got 3 extra queens to go up to 5)... So Lucifron commits either 2x or 5x the resources on offense then Ret on defense and manages to roast some drones... how imbalanced!
Uh, the factory doesnt become useless after 4 hellions are built, same for reactor. Those hellions also force Zerg to build things he otherwise wouldnt have at the time. Way to let the whole situation fly over your head.
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This patch is different from other patches because it changes the entire metagame instead of just fixing a certain aspect of the game, like bunker patch or amulet patch. Just because bunkers were patched, it didn't change the metagame, nor did taking away 75 starting energy from templars. The queen buff allows zerg to completely forego muta with their quick 6 gasses and basically never have to transition from any tech to get to hive. Every upgrade they research. and every unit they make is completely in line with getting the perfect late game army. Forcing units out of a zerg and temporarily containing them to 2 base limited their gas so they had to either go muta or 2base infestor which isn't really efficient on 4 gases. As it is, zergs can go straight to infestor, make 6-8 immediately, get 2-2 started and shortly after start their hive. This is only possible now due to having 6 quick gases which is only possible because of deflecting any aggresion mainly with queens. The meta game before the patch actually made sense. Zerg goes muta to secure a third and at the same time keep Terran off his third, because realistically it is not possible to secure a third as Terran vs standard 10 minute mutas, even if you go fast 3 cc. If zerg went two base infestor, which wasn't popular due to gas restriction, the game would play out as it does now, except hive tech units would just be a little slower to come out. But infestor wouldn't be that popular regardless because it was not as good at denying greedy thirds from Terran. Queens are basically doing the job muta tech did minus the harass, while at the same time spreading amazing creep. TLDR: Easy 3 base-> 6 gases->most flawless, uninterrupted tech path to arguably the most cost efficient army comp in the game.
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On June 22 2012 02:29 RavenLoud wrote: Why don't we make a custom map with with 3 larvas per inject instead of 4? Test things out a bit instead of complaining. Blizzard won't hear you here anyway.
That would make PvZ REALLY imba... basically there is no way to survive a 2 base push.
Changes to BL/Festor, which both Z and P have problem with, and P's counter to (archon toilet) is just too gimmicky make some sense on the surface. Though my personal pref is revert the Ghost nerf. I think the queen buff is a very sensible counter to mass ghost strategy, and make ZvZ much more enjoyable, but it should come in place of Ghost nerf rather than after it.
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On June 22 2012 01:43 DrPandaPhD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:39 megid wrote:On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote: Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Like...wow. Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished. There are more terrans than protoss/zerg in GSL r16. + A terran won the last season. It was an unfair pick because it didn't have all tournaments (e.g. Code S) When this GSL reach semi final, it will be put in. In the last GSL semi final, there were 1 Terran, 3 Protoss. So now we have: ro4: 17P, 4T, 23Z ro2: 9P, 2T, 11Z win: 4P, 1T, 6Z
Happy now? Clearly Terran is not UP as we've seen.
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On June 22 2012 02:35 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:29 RavenLoud wrote: Why don't we make a custom map with with 3 larvas per inject instead of 4? Test things out a bit instead of complaining. Blizzard won't hear you here anyway. That would make PvZ REALLY imba... basically there is no way to survive a 2 base push. Changes to BL/Festor, which both Z and P have problem with, and P's counter to (archon toilet) is just too gimmicky make some sense on the surface. Though my personal pref is revert the Ghost nerf. I think the queen buff is a very sensible counter to mass ghost strategy, and make ZvZ much more enjoyable, but it should come in place of Ghost nerf rather than after it. Yeah you're right. I honestly think snipe was overnerfed. It can't even kill a zergling nor a baneling now (and there was a challenge in Blizzard's Masters map that used snipe against them..lol).
We should try changing snipe to 35 (50 vs. psionic).
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On June 22 2012 02:31 CounterOrder wrote: Those hellions also force Zerg to build things he otherwise wouldnt have at the time. Way to let the whole situation fly over your head.
Actually, this is the problem, because this not true now. Zerg don't care you build 4 hellions, he will have more queens anyway, and he dodn't need lings speed or a spine anymore.
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what makes TvZ seem so horrible right now is terran is forced to focus on their midgame strength much more intensely just to survive, while the zerg can get to their endgame faster while sacrificing midgame strength for more economy and still being safe from all-ins. Terran cannot do that.
Plus most terrans are also sacrificing economy early trying to deal with creep early game or to pressure early game, making the terran even weaker lategame because he sacrificed economy early. This is not the terrans fault really he just feels he has to do something to stop that creep.
I think the true terran lategame can actually kill zergs lategame or at least contest with it equally. Terran just has no safe greedy economic way to get there, but zerg does.
I believe if a terran and a zerg both said "NR 15" and did greedy builds and took 3 fast bases (thats about how long it takes to get 3 bases with lots of lategame tech thrown in plus required lategame production, 15mins. zerg will have a fourth but it wont be too operational at that point) the terran could be on an even footing as the zerg and compete with the zerg lategame even if he let the zerg put creep on the entire map by 15 minutes.
But that is a unrealistic scenario. In real games the terran needs to make alot of midgame strength to not die to all-in's, while the zerg can pump pure economy realistically and always be safe from anything. and the midgame strength the terran does create has realistically zero ability to pressure the zerg effectively and even trying to pressure the zerg with that army is usually suicide the zerg produces just enough to roll you over and now your super behind in economy
Yeah we saw MKP beat stephano with early pressure but DRG destroyed the same early pressure. It really looked to me like stephano made huge mistakes that game, MKP made almost no blunders while stephano was slower than he could be. If the zerg makes big mistakes and the terran makes no mistakes, terran can win. But the terran cant force the zerg to do like that, its the zerg thats beating himself, not the terran thats beating the zerg. The terran can only play perfectly and make zero mistakes and hope the zerg messes up and if the zerg doesnt mess up its gg.
think about this terran lategame army 6 BC 36 6 thor 36 6 raven 12 3ghosts 6 4tank 12 19 vikings 38 3 planetary fortresses at each expansion to defend ling runbys
thats 140food. terran can hang with 60scv's lategame thanks to 2 orbitals/ mules (while the rest of the CC's would be used to put 3 planetarys at each expansion)
i think you would be hard pressed to find a 140food zerg army that trades nicely with that army as long as you make sure to spread the vikings to avoid fungals.
while using that army the trick is you would want to keep your tanks out of siegemode if your enemy has too much broodlords or ultras, but use siegemode if the enemy has tons of lings/roaches and low amounts of broodlords. Broodlords counter siegemode too hard, but tanks for 3food (while being super expensive for 3food) are actually strong out of siegemode but have the option of using it to counter mass ling/baneling
in battle your micro focus is to spread your whole army before the battle very well to avoid fungal/ultralisk splash as best as you can. Remember to keep your ravens and ghosts slightly behind your army protecting them from getting NP'ed. At the start of the battle quickly launch 6 yamatos on the ultralisks or broods then fly in your ravens and launch 6 HSM's on the corrupters. Then run in your ghosts and spam snipe on infestors (to counter NP. NP would be very strong against thors but 3ghosts should deal with it since snipe has a longrange to spam snipe on those infestors). During the hectic battle considering the ravens fly in after the battle starts to launch missiles, this should hopefully greatly reduce the chance of the zerg getting off a successful NP on a raven due to the fact that the zerg is likely trying to micro off and score multiple good fungals during this time as each good fungal can do 200+ damage per click (as much as yamato)
then after the corrupters/broodlords are dead, land your vikings and clean up the rest
I really dont think theres a 140food zerg army in the unit tester that you could find that fights that terran lategame army well. im assuming the perfect zerg lategame army has both ultras and broodlords with infestors and corrupters and whatever else
problem is in a real game the zerg proceedes to remax in 20 seconds with several extra 200food roach armies then the terran gets rolled over
anyway long story short if terran HAD A WAY to safely get their lategame that wasnt suicide and low economy compared to the zerg, they could be good
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On June 22 2012 02:40 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 01:43 DrPandaPhD wrote:On June 22 2012 01:39 megid wrote:On June 21 2012 23:28 Enemyy wrote:On June 21 2012 23:25 Scisyhp wrote: Given that terrans are 6-4 against zerg in this GSL season (in series), I think it's sort of silly to say that zerg is really overpowered versus terran at high levels. In reality, I think that it is pretty balanced, just terrans have to get more used to not using early aggression as a crutch, which high level players are accomodating better to. Just give this a look (like posted alot before). http://img837.imageshack.us/img837/2509/tgth.jpg Like...wow. Watch out for telling the truth, u can be punished. There are more terrans than protoss/zerg in GSL r16. + A terran won the last season. It was an unfair pick because it didn't have all tournaments (e.g. Code S) When this GSL reach semi final, it will be put in. In the last GSL semi final, there were 1 Terran, 3 Protoss. So now we have: ro4: 17P, 4T, 23Z ro2: 9P, 2T, 11Z win: 4P, 1T, 6Z Happy now? Clearly Terran is not UP as we've seen. and since you guys say it...sample size too small/etc/etc/etc
/shrug I mean if you guys are going to keep saying "there's not enough time yet to determine if it really is [op/imba/whatever]" and then even if we wait all people would say is the same thing even after 2-3 months anyways
-__- what an infinite loop anyways.
On June 22 2012 02:48 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:31 CounterOrder wrote: Those hellions also force Zerg to build things he otherwise wouldnt have at the time. Way to let the whole situation fly over your head. Actually, this is the problem, because this not true now. Zerg don't care you build 4 hellions, he will have more queens anyway, and he dodn't need lings speed or a spine anymore. pretty much, they'll just make more queens which makes zerg not have to decide what to build with his larvae (and if you know this game, you'll know that queens don't cost larvae) -> all drones.
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Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this?
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On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote: Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The queen doesn't have to move if she wants to shoot to a hellion, it's not a big difference if there are only 2 queens but when you have 6 of them it change the game.
Also you don't have to make the choice between units or drones anymore, so zerg just mass drones and it snowball out of control from there.
It's not that hard to understand. Before the patch a terran could keep under control the number of workers via hellions but now he can't anymore because of queens.
edit: keep in mind that those additional queens can be used to transfuse and spread creeps.
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On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote: Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this?
It effected all stages of the game, zerg play greedy as hell now because they can get away with it since the queens are so strong. The only reason terran could keep up before was because they had options to show early aggression, thus the zerg had to take precautions to avoid getting absolutely molestored. Terran are now entering the late game in a very dirty fashion, and are essentially behind in units / tech because the zerg can powerhouse their way through.
That's not to say I don't think the buff is overpowered, but I do believe that terran need to explore more avenues.
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On June 22 2012 02:58 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote: Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The queen doesn't have to move if she wants to shoot to a hellion, it's not a big difference if there are only 2 queens but when you have 6 of them it change the game. Also you don't have to make the choice between units or drones anymore, so zerg just mass drones and it snowball out of control from there. It's not that hard to understand. Before the patch a terran could keep under control the number of workers via hellions but now he can't anymore because of queens. edit: keep in mind that those additional queens can be used to transfuse and spread creeps.
I don't understand how that's a "HUGE" impact big enough to lose games over? I'm a Top Master Zerg and I lose to Terran often enough.
Yes creep spread is better, I've seen tons of abusive builds to counter that including Raven banshee. Also I don't see why player's don't just go fast 3 CC since they know Zerg is only going to make drones.
Yes there are Roach Ling all ins by I've seen a TON of quick siege tank builds hard counter it. I think Terrans need to stop whining and just come up with new openings.
Don't forget in BW there were far more severe w/l swings...FAR MORE SEVERE!
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On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote: Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The opening sets the tone for the entire match.
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On June 22 2012 03:03 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:58 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote: Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The queen doesn't have to move if she wants to shoot to a hellion, it's not a big difference if there are only 2 queens but when you have 6 of them it change the game. Also you don't have to make the choice between units or drones anymore, so zerg just mass drones and it snowball out of control from there. It's not that hard to understand. Before the patch a terran could keep under control the number of workers via hellions but now he can't anymore because of queens. edit: keep in mind that those additional queens can be used to transfuse and spread creeps. I don't understand how that's a "HUGE" impact big enough to lose games over? I'm a Top Master Zerg and I lose to Terran often enough. Yes creep spread is better, I've seen tons of abusive builds to counter that including Raven banshee. Also I don't see why player's don't just go fast 3 CC since they know Zerg is only going to make drones. Yes there are Roach Ling all ins by I've seen a TON of quick siege tank builds hard counter it. I think Terrans need to stop whining and just come up with new openings. Don't forget in BW there were far more severe w/l swings...FAR MORE SEVERE!
You don't see how massing drones and queens in early game doesn't change a game ? Sorry but you are not a master zerg. Also the idea of trying to keep up with zerg in economy without harassment is one of the dumbest thing i've ever heard LOL.
But hey, you are a HIGH MASTER zerg so you must know the stuff you are talking about lmao.
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On June 22 2012 02:58 BlitzerSC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote: Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The queen doesn't have to move if she wants to shoot to a hellion, it's not a big difference if there are only 2 queens but when you have 6 of them it change the game. Also you don't have to make the choice between units or drones anymore, so zerg just mass drones and it snowball out of control from there. It's not that hard to understand. Before the patch a terran could keep under control the number of workers via hellions but now he can't anymore because of queens. edit: keep in mind that those additional queens can be used to transfuse and spread creeps. And that creep pretty much kills any standard timings that were previously made before the patch.
The standard 9:30 Marine/Tank timing? Pretty much dead. The 2/2 Marine/Tank/Medivac timing? -Really- dead.
The only timings that remain seem to be bio-based.
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On June 22 2012 03:03 LgN.EijZrA wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 02:58 BlitzerSC wrote:On June 22 2012 02:55 LgN.EijZrA wrote: Explain to me in vivid detail how queen range changed the MU other than the opening.
Can anyone please comment on this? The queen doesn't have to move if she wants to shoot to a hellion, it's not a big difference if there are only 2 queens but when you have 6 of them it change the game. Also you don't have to make the choice between units or drones anymore, so zerg just mass drones and it snowball out of control from there. It's not that hard to understand. Before the patch a terran could keep under control the number of workers via hellions but now he can't anymore because of queens. edit: keep in mind that those additional queens can be used to transfuse and spread creeps. I don't understand how that's a "HUGE" impact big enough to lose games over? I'm a Top Master Zerg and I lose to Terran often enough. Yes creep spread is better, I've seen tons of abusive builds to counter that including Raven banshee. Also I don't see why player's don't just go fast 3 CC since they know Zerg is only going to make drones. Yes there are Roach Ling all ins by I've seen a TON of quick siege tank builds hard counter it. I think Terrans need to stop whining and just come up with new openings. Don't forget in BW there were far more severe w/l swings...FAR MORE SEVERE! Because 3OC is accepting build order losses when Zergs like DRG realize it's the metagame and just Roach rush you or Baneling Bust you. Besides, 3OC is still worse then a Zerg who's allowed to play passively. It's beyond obvious at this point that Zerg is capable of playing the greediest, and even if you go 3OC, they still get a 12 minute Hive, at which point it becomes virtually impossible to win against a competent opponent.
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