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To those disliking the warhound because its not a complex unit to use, how did you feel about goliaths in BW? Because that's pretty much what they are, only stronger against ground and lacking the air attack.
In my opinion this unit can be done the wrong and the right way. The wrong way would be to make it so powerful that it takes over the role of the tank, and "mech play" ends up being a bunch of a-moving battle hellions and warhounds. The right way is to do it so that it supplements the army as extra DPS and a meatshield for your tanks when hellions aren't needed, as well as using its special ability to counter key units in the opposite army (colossi, immortals, tanks etc).
When you already have stuff like tanks, mines and casters (ghost, hopefully raven) to micro and position, its okay when some of your units are less micro-heavy.
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On June 12 2012 10:35 Bagi wrote:
To those disliking the warhound because its not a complex unit to use, how did you feel about goliaths in BW? Because that's pretty much what they are, only stronger against ground and lacking the air attack.
No, its the oposite, Strong against Air, but waek to Ground, they have a simple but effective desing, a Lot of HP with masive long Air range, and good DPS, perfect for the AA that mecht T needs, i dont know why blizz dont simple just add this.
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On June 12 2012 10:35 Bagi wrote:
To those disliking the warhound because its not a complex unit to use, how did you feel about goliaths in BW? Because that's pretty much what they are, only stronger against ground and lacking the air attack.
In my opinion this unit can be done the wrong and the right way. The wrong way would be to make it so powerful that it takes over the role of the tank, and "mech play" ends up being a bunch of a-moving battle hellions and warhounds. The right way is to do it so that it supplements the army as extra DPS and a meatshield for your tanks when hellions aren't needed, as well as using its special ability to counter key units in the opposite army (colossi, immortals, tanks etc).
When you already have stuff like tanks, mines and casters (ghost, hopefully raven) to micro and position, its okay when some of your units are less micro-heavy.
I love your optimism.  Thank You very much.
My worry, like you expressed, is that the match-ups devolve into BattleHellion + WarHound, and that the Tank is left out. I guess the unit simply needs some adjustment.
I still worry though that Mech is to supply inefficient.
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On June 12 2012 10:26 larse wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:15 DeCoup wrote:
Warhound is not a 1A unit. When set to autocast the missles will always shoot the closest mechanical enemy. Because of this I expect that 90% of the time pro players will be disabling the autocast so that they can target fire the missles at key enemy units which generally speaking are never the closest of the enemy mechs in the area. Immortals (The missles do great damage despite hardened shields), sentries, tanks, etc.
By disabling the autocast you can also effectively focus fire on 2 units at a time. First you shift attack click thru your targets, then once in range you hold down the missile cast key and click thru other targets. This is similar to how snipe is most effectively used by a ghost, because by spam casting the spell on different targets than you shift-click attack on you minimise overkill damage on the spell.
This is the first unit which has been designed in which we are likely to turn auto-cast on/off depending on the situation and in which the spell which can be auto cast can benifit a lot more greatly by manual targeting in some situations. They will not manually cast. You never seen a pro manually casts zealot's charge, right? Even though they can. Often time, many of their zealots just mistakenly charge into the enemy but in fact they can manually cast. But they don't do that. One reason is that the cooldown is very short (both chargelot and warhound's missiles). Manually casting is suboptimal in fact. So I would say they probably will just use auto-cast.
Yes because manually casting zealots, who have a melee attack, would be effective. Manually clicking zealots to their target is an easy way to make sure zealot never attacks. You also never see zergs targeting specific units with their zerglings either.
I can see people using this ability manually, depending on how it functions. Since it does not interrupt the basic attack, it could be used to focus down one target, like an immortal or focus down sets of stalkers while the basic attack pounded away. It is an interesting idea, a unit that can attack two separate units at the same time. It would be interesting if the ability will continue to fire on that specific unit until it is dead.
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Canada11137 Posts
On June 12 2012 10:35 Bagi wrote:
To those disliking the warhound because its not a complex unit to use, how did you feel about goliaths in BW? Because that's pretty much what they are, only stronger against ground and lacking the air attack.
In my opinion this unit can be done the wrong and the right way. The wrong way would be to make it so powerful that it takes over the role of the tank, and "mech play" ends up being a bunch of a-moving battle hellions and warhounds. The right way is to do it so that it supplements the army as extra DPS and a meatshield for your tanks when hellions aren't needed, as well as using its special ability to counter key units in the opposite army (colossi, immortals, tanks etc).
When you already have stuff like tanks, mines and casters (ghost, hopefully raven) to micro and position, its okay when some of your units are less micro-heavy.
Well those slight changes actually make it an entirely different unit. If goliaths had no air attack and were designed to pick off tanks, I wouldn't like them either. (I used designed intentionally as who knows how things will turn out and be rebalanced, but if they are supposed to take out mechanical units, well that's the tank.)
When I taught one guy BW, he decided all the other units were too hard and just massed goliaths because he could 1a2a3a4a5a6a them. And because I taught him to macro, he could produce quite a few, but good tank play just butchered goliaths and storms absolutely wrecked his army. But goliaths weren't tank killers (the core of mech play), they were the 4th element of mech play and a support unit at that. And there was actually a fair amount of interaction between them and microed carriers hugging cliffs. (They would auto target interceptors most often and needed to focus fire.)
See for mech play you have your two core elements.
First you need the Tank at the core for massive damage and AoE. And the tanks were powerful enough that a couple of them could sit behind supply depots on top of a ramp and reign destruction down. So even if they weren't very mobile, they could hold expansions well enough.
Second, you also need something cheap to sit in front and tank damage. This can be anything as long as it can soak up hits and do a little damage. But it's helpful if these tanking units can also turn around and also be used to harass.
However tanks are notoriously immoble so the third element is something that stop back stabs, block or at least slow down alternate routes so they can't just get around and kill your base. And the more I think about it, the more I think you need something that doesn't cost supply that's pretty cheap to throw down the alternate paths you are pushing. That's why mines were so brilliant- it could stop zergling and hydra waves and zealot trains in their tracks and even slow down dragoon pushes with observers. Basically, mines on their own could pin down an army long enough for tanks to reposition and guard the attempted flank. And because vultures were basically free (I kid), you could continually block or reblock paths with mines and then send the vultures back to the main army to strenghthen it.
Basically you're trying to shutdown their mobility and you can build supply depots and bunkers in front of you force to further hinder their mobility/ funnel their troops. Meanwhile, the other side is trying to abuse mobility with giant flanks, drops, teching to air, or recalls.
The fourth element was protecting your mech ground force from air attacks or drops/bombs and that's where goliaths, turrets, or some sort airforce comes in. You can throw in various support units, but I think those four are the main elements where anti-air was just there to protect the first two.
When warhounds targets mechanic units, it targets the supposed core of mech play. The counter to tanks was more tanks only controlled better or else tanks dropped on top of tanks. And even if doesn't wind up killing tanks, unless it's supposed to be the cheap cannon fodder then it contributes more to M&M mobile forces then mech playstyle.
Power of Mech PvT
+ Show Spoiler +
Mech TvT
+ Show Spoiler +
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On June 12 2012 11:34 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:35 Bagi wrote:
To those disliking the warhound because its not a complex unit to use, how did you feel about goliaths in BW? Because that's pretty much what they are, only stronger against ground and lacking the air attack.
In my opinion this unit can be done the wrong and the right way. The wrong way would be to make it so powerful that it takes over the role of the tank, and "mech play" ends up being a bunch of a-moving battle hellions and warhounds. The right way is to do it so that it supplements the army as extra DPS and a meatshield for your tanks when hellions aren't needed, as well as using its special ability to counter key units in the opposite army (colossi, immortals, tanks etc).
When you already have stuff like tanks, mines and casters (ghost, hopefully raven) to micro and position, its okay when some of your units are less micro-heavy. Well those slight changes actually make it an entirely different unit. If goliaths had no air attack and were designed to pick off tanks, I wouldn't like them either. (I used designed intentionally as who knows how things will turn out and be rebalanced, but if they are supposed to take out mechanical units, well that's the tank.) When I taught one guy BW, he decided all the other units were too hard and just massed goliaths because he could 1a2a3a4a5a6a them. And because I taught him to macro, he could produce quite a few, but good tank play just butchered goliaths and storms absolutely wrecked his army. But goliaths weren't tank killers (the core of mech play), they were the 4th element of mech play and support unit at that. And there was actually a fair amount of interaction between them and microed carriers hugging cliffs. (They would auto target interceptors most often and needed to focus fire.) See for mech play you have your two core elements. First you need the Tank at the core for massive damage and AoE. And the tanks were powerful enough that a couple of them could sit behind supply depots on top of a ramp and reign destruction down. So even if they weren't very mobile, they could hold expansions well enough. Second, you also need something cheap to sit in front and tank damage. This can be anything as long as it can soak up hits and do a little damage. But it's helpful if these tanking units can also turn around and also be used to harass. However tanks are notoriously immoble so the third element is something that stop back stabs, block or at least slow down alternate routes so they can't just get around and kill your base. And the more I think about it, the more I think you need something that doesn't cost supply that's pretty cheap to fhrow down the alternate paths you are pushing. That's why mines were so brilliant- it could stop zergling waves and zealot trains in their tracks and even slow down dragoon pushes with observers. Basically, mines on their own could pin down an army long enough for tanks to reposition and guard the attempted flank. And because vultures were basically free (I kid), you could continually block or reblock paths with mines and then send the vultures back to the main army to strenghthen it. Basically you're trying to shutdown their mobility and you can build supply depots and bunkers in front of you force to further hinder their mobility/ funnel their troops. Meanwhile, the other side is trying to abuse mobility with giant flanks, drops, teching to air, or recalls. The fourth element was protecting your mech ground force from air attacks or drops/bombs and that's where goliaths, turrets, or some sort airforce comes in. You can throw in various support units, but I think those four are the main elements where anti-air was just there to protect the first two. When warhounds targets mechanic units, it targets the supposed core of mech play. The counter to tanks was more tanks only controlled better or else tanks dropped on top of tanks. And even if doesn't wind up killing tanks, unless it's supposed to be the cheap cannon fodder then it contributes more to M&M mobile forces then mech playstyle. Power of Mech PvT + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0yd9M6RJuM&feature=relmfu#t=12m0s Mech TvT + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ELXqTP2cM&list=PL75BF9E06ED802E75&index=2&feature=plpp_video#t=16m09s
On man I love old BW vods. You can see how awesome the game was and how the how difficult to just control the units. Although, those units still clump up just like SC2, units(because they are sprites, they look like they are farther apart than their 3d counterparts)
I think tanks with support will have a chance to be really good in HotS with enough support. The only thing holding them back right now is the speed of zealot charge and the fact that they take up way less "space" that they did in BW. Also, widow mines could mess with zealots a lot, since there is no friendly fire. I personally do not want to try and click on the minded zealot that is charging endlessly trying to get his first hit off on a target.
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Canada11137 Posts
Well not actually old vods. That was like 2-3 months ago. Unless you think a couple months is old in which case last year MLG is ancient
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They have got to balance the oracle. Ik it isn't final but holy fuck the Zerg's income dropped so low at the end of the PvZ battle report.
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On June 12 2012 12:04 Falling wrote:Well not actually old vods. That was like 2-3 months ago. Unless you think a couple months is old in which case last year MLG is a ncient
Not really, but anything with sprites that dated brings me back to my highschool days. But I respect the game and how hard it is. I am glad that it is slowly oozing its way into SC2. I also see the point of having units with insanely powerful abilities, as long as they are balanced. The siege tank looks insane is BW and I think SC2 units should follow suite. This is why I am totally ok with the spider mine and tempest. A 22 range unit is just the kind of insane that SC2 needs. Make it cost a ton and move slower than a viking. Powerful units like that need to reward players who use them well and punish players who use them poorly. Terran should have an auto targeting super mine that can one shot stalkers, mutas and every other two supply unit. They need to be able to hide things around that map that punish stray probes, deny bases and sometimes blow up a WP or medivac.
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My take on the mines and warhound:
Widow Mines:
The major problem for them right now is that they either deal damage or they deal very limited damage. There is no in between. If your opponent can split well, the Terran can do nothing about it.
Suggestion : In order to allow more interaction with the mines and allow more room for the players to show skill difference. The mines shoule be allowed to manually detonate. The best way I can think of is to let the mines deal more damage the longer it attached to the unit. E.g. if you detonate @ the first second , it deals 1/10 of the full damage. If you detonate them @ 5 sec after they are attached, they will deal half damage. If you leave them alone... they will explode themselves after 10 sec dealing full damage. In this way, If the opponent split, Terran players who can react quickly can deal more damage than those who miss are worse at looking at the mini map. This also introduces the element of detonating vs spliting. Once mines are triggered, Terran players have to weight the splitting skill of the opponent and the damage increase per second.
Warhound :
The problem of the warhound is that it is absolutely useless in TvZ. The unit can only do 1 thing, thus a borin unit.
Regarding its ability to break seige lines. As long as Blizzard got the numbers right (damage & range of the missiles), tanks can still be viable to hold the lines. Since they are not immortals, they can be destroyed before raching the tanks. The key here is make number matters in the scenario. If someone have a critical amount of tanks, the warhound will still be unable to break it (so that they canot 1 A like colossi = =).
Suggestion: Give more abilities to the warhound so that it can interact with the game in more ways, such as :
give it an ability to fortify buildings (CoolDown base) temporary raise building's HP and armor. This makes it useful in all match up and can even help support bio plays.
pair them up with a Thor to allow a better version of 250mm cannons.
allow them to zone an area so that all anti-air missiles will have a wide splash with low dmg in the zone (vikings, turrets, thors).
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Is it just me or does the recall on the mothership core just seem dumb? I think it would be better if they just gave Protoss back the shuttle to allow them to be more aggressive early game/ harass and take out the stupid warp prism/ recall.
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On June 12 2012 11:34 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:35 Bagi wrote:
To those disliking the warhound because its not a complex unit to use, how did you feel about goliaths in BW? Because that's pretty much what they are, only stronger against ground and lacking the air attack.
In my opinion this unit can be done the wrong and the right way. The wrong way would be to make it so powerful that it takes over the role of the tank, and "mech play" ends up being a bunch of a-moving battle hellions and warhounds. The right way is to do it so that it supplements the army as extra DPS and a meatshield for your tanks when hellions aren't needed, as well as using its special ability to counter key units in the opposite army (colossi, immortals, tanks etc).
When you already have stuff like tanks, mines and casters (ghost, hopefully raven) to micro and position, its okay when some of your units are less micro-heavy. Well those slight changes actually make it an entirely different unit. If goliaths had no air attack and were designed to pick off tanks, I wouldn't like them either. (I used designed intentionally as who knows how things will turn out and be rebalanced, but if they are supposed to take out mechanical units, well that's the tank.) When I taught one guy BW, he decided all the other units were too hard and just massed goliaths because he could 1a2a3a4a5a6a them. And because I taught him to macro, he could produce quite a few, but good tank play just butchered goliaths and storms absolutely wrecked his army. But goliaths weren't tank killers (the core of mech play), they were the 4th element of mech play and a support unit at that. And there was actually a fair amount of interaction between them and microed carriers hugging cliffs. (They would auto target interceptors most often and needed to focus fire.) See for mech play you have your two core elements. First you need the Tank at the core for massive damage and AoE. And the tanks were powerful enough that a couple of them could sit behind supply depots on top of a ramp and reign destruction down. So even if they weren't very mobile, they could hold expansions well enough. Second, you also need something cheap to sit in front and tank damage. This can be anything as long as it can soak up hits and do a little damage. But it's helpful if these tanking units can also turn around and also be used to harass. However tanks are notoriously immoble so the third element is something that stop back stabs, block or at least slow down alternate routes so they can't just get around and kill your base. And the more I think about it, the more I think you need something that doesn't cost supply that's pretty cheap to fhrow down the alternate paths you are pushing. That's why mines were so brilliant- it could stop zergling waves and zealot trains in their tracks and even slow down dragoon pushes with observers. Basically, mines on their own could pin down an army long enough for tanks to reposition and guard the attempted flank. And because vultures were basically free (I kid), you could continually block or reblock paths with mines and then send the vultures back to the main army to strenghthen it. Basically you're trying to shutdown their mobility and you can build supply depots and bunkers in front of you force to further hinder their mobility/ funnel their troops. Meanwhile, the other side is trying to abuse mobility with giant flanks, drops, teching to air, or recalls. The fourth element was protecting your mech ground force from air attacks or drops/bombs and that's where goliaths, turrets, or some sort airforce comes in. You can throw in various support units, but I think those four are the main elements where anti-air was just there to protect the first two. When warhounds targets mechanic units, it targets the supposed core of mech play. The counter to tanks was more tanks only controlled better or else tanks dropped on top of tanks. And even if doesn't wind up killing tanks, unless it's supposed to be the cheap cannon fodder then it contributes more to M&M mobile forces then mech playstyle. Power of Mech PvT + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0yd9M6RJuM&feature=relmfu#t=12m0s Mech TvT + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ELXqTP2cM&list=PL75BF9E06ED802E75&index=2&feature=plpp_video#t=16m09s
I agree with this sooo much. I'm not even a "BW elitist" or what other rubbish people say in regards to BW die hards.
Mech is about style of play, not just where the units come from. The Tank HAS TO remain the main unit for mech or else the style will be lost. What would be the difference between a Protoss army running around the map and a Terran "mech" army doing the same? Other then visuals (art), to a begginer they look sort of the same. Looking back on Dustin B interviews since Blizzcon, it feels like they are hell bent in to nerfing tanks, by design, or unit overlap.
I still hope, in a delusional sort of way, that the reason for no TvP battle report is that they are reconsidering the warhound's role.
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On June 12 2012 13:32 Solo Terran wrote:
Is it just me or does the recall on the mothership core just seem dumb? I think it would be better if they just gave Protoss back the shuttle to allow them to be more aggressive early game/ harass and take out the stupid warp prism/ recall.
What? The shuttle is literally the warp prism, but much worse. Much much worse.
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On June 12 2012 13:46 Tippecanoe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 13:32 Solo Terran wrote:
Is it just me or does the recall on the mothership core just seem dumb? I think it would be better if they just gave Protoss back the shuttle to allow them to be more aggressive early game/ harass and take out the stupid warp prism/ recall. What? The shuttle is literally the warp prism, but much worse. Much much worse. I didn't play BW I just assumed it was like a medivac for Protoss without healing.
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On June 12 2012 11:34 Falling wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 10:35 Bagi wrote:
To those disliking the warhound because its not a complex unit to use, how did you feel about goliaths in BW? Because that's pretty much what they are, only stronger against ground and lacking the air attack.
In my opinion this unit can be done the wrong and the right way. The wrong way would be to make it so powerful that it takes over the role of the tank, and "mech play" ends up being a bunch of a-moving battle hellions and warhounds. The right way is to do it so that it supplements the army as extra DPS and a meatshield for your tanks when hellions aren't needed, as well as using its special ability to counter key units in the opposite army (colossi, immortals, tanks etc).
When you already have stuff like tanks, mines and casters (ghost, hopefully raven) to micro and position, its okay when some of your units are less micro-heavy. Well those slight changes actually make it an entirely different unit. If goliaths had no air attack and were designed to pick off tanks, I wouldn't like them either. (I used designed intentionally as who knows how things will turn out and be rebalanced, but if they are supposed to take out mechanical units, well that's the tank.) When I taught one guy BW, he decided all the other units were too hard and just massed goliaths because he could 1a2a3a4a5a6a them. And because I taught him to macro, he could produce quite a few, but good tank play just butchered goliaths and storms absolutely wrecked his army. But goliaths weren't tank killers (the core of mech play), they were the 4th element of mech play and a support unit at that. And there was actually a fair amount of interaction between them and microed carriers hugging cliffs. (They would auto target interceptors most often and needed to focus fire.) See for mech play you have your two core elements. First you need the Tank at the core for massive damage and AoE. And the tanks were powerful enough that a couple of them could sit behind supply depots on top of a ramp and reign destruction down. So even if they weren't very mobile, they could hold expansions well enough. Second, you also need something cheap to sit in front and tank damage. This can be anything as long as it can soak up hits and do a little damage. But it's helpful if these tanking units can also turn around and also be used to harass. However tanks are notoriously immoble so the third element is something that stop back stabs, block or at least slow down alternate routes so they can't just get around and kill your base. And the more I think about it, the more I think you need something that doesn't cost supply that's pretty cheap to throw down the alternate paths you are pushing. That's why mines were so brilliant- it could stop zergling and hydra waves and zealot trains in their tracks and even slow down dragoon pushes with observers. Basically, mines on their own could pin down an army long enough for tanks to reposition and guard the attempted flank. And because vultures were basically free (I kid), you could continually block or reblock paths with mines and then send the vultures back to the main army to strenghthen it. Basically you're trying to shutdown their mobility and you can build supply depots and bunkers in front of you force to further hinder their mobility/ funnel their troops. Meanwhile, the other side is trying to abuse mobility with giant flanks, drops, teching to air, or recalls. The fourth element was protecting your mech ground force from air attacks or drops/bombs and that's where goliaths, turrets, or some sort airforce comes in. You can throw in various support units, but I think those four are the main elements where anti-air was just there to protect the first two. When warhounds targets mechanic units, it targets the supposed core of mech play. The counter to tanks was more tanks only controlled better or else tanks dropped on top of tanks. And even if doesn't wind up killing tanks, unless it's supposed to be the cheap cannon fodder then it contributes more to M&M mobile forces then mech playstyle. Power of Mech PvT + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h0yd9M6RJuM&feature=relmfu#t=12m0s Mech TvT + Show Spoiler +http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9ELXqTP2cM&list=PL75BF9E06ED802E75&index=2&feature=plpp_video#t=16m09s
you took that word right out of my mouth BUT can mech work with tank play being the core of the stable mech army in SC2? Considering that there are so many protoss opening that completely destroy mech. Such as void ray opening, 4 gate warp on high ground, warp prism opening. I can definitely see why blizzard considered Warhound and that is due to 3 gate blink stalker. 3 Gate blink stalker will CRUSH mech opening which is why it so hard to open straight mech. If you try to open mech, you would think a seige expand would be safe right? It would not, simply because you will have 5 stalker blink in your main and yo have to unseige and go defend that but then your natural expos and zealot raming it.....and more unit warping in your main.
It not like BW where protoss would most likely choose to expand after seeing 3 tanks protecting the natural. Therefore, the warhound would stop these kind of all-in because it will wreck those stalkers if you just have a few or help you stablize until you can get enough tanks. But should you be making tanks if warhound are this good?
For peopel saying that the warhound need anti air, if it has anti air, it will be too powerful(in it current state). It will completely shut down any stargate play from protoss AND be strong against all mechanical ground. Of course their ground DPS will have to be tweaked to compistated for their anti air.
EDIT: nvm, forgot about Widow Mine, maybe it not needed anymore. It depends on how good widow mine end up being on release
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Abduction and Ultra boost are two stupidest things ever.
Terran now has absolutely no ability to "hold the lines". Mech is still unbelievably immobile as opposed to zerg. But if in WoL T could be strong "in position" now this part is also gone.
About w-mine: for such a high cost - 75/25 - it can kill only one unit? In 10 sec you can avoid any splash.
Stupidity of blizzard is continuing with new expansion.
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On June 12 2012 14:21 Jimbo77 wrote:
Abduction and Ultra boost are two stupidest things ever.
Terran now has absolutely no ability to "hold the lines". Mech is still unbelievably immobile as opposed to zerg. But if in WoL T could be strong "in position" now this part is also gone.
About w-mine: for such a high cost - 75/25 - it can kill only one unit? In 10 sec you can avoid any splash.
Stupidity of blizzard is continuing with new expansion.
it is pretty OP right now but there definitely way to get around it. Such as running lings in to get snatched but it ability to hit air unit is a bit out rageous. I think it mainly to stop any void ray opening or stargate play? Iono
EDIT: Also it because that terran had shitty tank count. He was massing those battle hellion and using those tank as support. He was playing mech like bio lol and using those tank as support rather than having the hellion as support and tanks as the core DPSer. He also never used the old version of the hellion speed to harass drone. He just keep them in battle mode WHOLE game and walk them around like marauders. Having only 6 tanks and getting them yanked and killed looks bad but seriously.....he should of had like over 15+ tanks and then it would matter as much considering how expensive vipers are, they will most likely wont have enough aduct to grap every tank.
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i think it all looks good so far.
However as a terran player im a little bit worried against zerg. Which is the same issue we have now. We have no actual counter to the broodord. Most terran players that are able to beat broodlords is because they were able to contain the zerg to few bases where the broodlords are in managable numbers for marines/vikings/thors to overun them. Now lets say in Heart of the swarm you go mech. IF the zerg knows this, they can literally take alot of the map and and then mass broodlord you in the end.
Anyway the point is, the same Anti air terran has now, looks like it will be the same Anti Air terran has in Heart of the swarm. Which leads me to believe that a mass broodlord/corrupeter/infestor army will have no problem handleing a meching terran. So once again we just roll over and die to zerg late game macro.
Terrans in wings of liberity can go mech in TvZ, but its used a surprise tactic and only on Few select maps where its generally a 3 base all in with 1 push, as going macro mode is pretty much retarded. ( mech is usually a hellion/mass thor/few siege tanks/some banshes 3 base all in) In general bio /tank is the most prefered way to play tvz because its the better strat at keeping zerg bases down or doing some sort of crippling damage early/mid game so you dont get rolled over late game by infinite amounts of units/remaxing
All im saying is, Either the Raven needs buffing, or we need a new unit for the late game or mech will still be useless outside of All ins.
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On June 12 2012 11:34 Falling wrote:
When warhounds targets mechanic units, it targets the supposed core of mech play. The counter to tanks was more tanks only controlled better or else tanks dropped on top of tanks. And even if doesn't wind up killing tanks, unless it's supposed to be the cheap cannon fodder then it contributes more to M&M mobile forces then mech playstyle.
This in a nutshell.
TvX mech play was awesome because of the execution required to break a tank line, and the potential abuse of its immobility.
Warhounds are not mech units, they are no different from immortals/stalkers/marauders. They do not have any of the weaknesses that "mech play" actually has. Mass goliath only had specific applications, they were only massed when the opponent went carriers, or for mass drop play, or Flash's metagame timing attacks that don't make sense in ladder play  .
On their own, goliaths were pretty terrible. In the preview it seems you have this army of warhounds and battle-hellions and no tanks, which to me just looks like another form of Protoss deathball or MMM with different art.
If we wanted a non-positional mobile army we would stick with MMM, but would much prefer to play strategic & positional warfare. What I loved in BW was "locking down" positions with mines, supply depots, turrets and tanks. I would play this game of conquest by taking territories down one by one, slowly engulfing the map and choking the opponent out. The reason I don't like SC2 is this does not exist, and plays less of a role even in the most positional based TvT. BW actually felt like an RTS.
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On June 12 2012 14:27 sluggaslamoo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 11:34 Falling wrote:
When warhounds targets mechanic units, it targets the supposed core of mech play. The counter to tanks was more tanks only controlled better or else tanks dropped on top of tanks. And even if doesn't wind up killing tanks, unless it's supposed to be the cheap cannon fodder then it contributes more to M&M mobile forces then mech playstyle.
This in a nutshell. TvX mech play was awesome because of the execution required to break a tank line, and the potential abuse of its immobility. Warhounds are not mech units, they are no different from immortals/stalkers/marauders. They do not have any of the weaknesses that "mech play" actually has. Mass goliath only had specific applications, they were only massed when the opponent went carriers, or for mass drop play, or Flash's metagame timing attacks that don't make sense in ladder play . On their own, goliaths were pretty terrible. In the preview it seems you have this army of warhounds and battle-hellions and no tanks, which to me just looks like another form of Protoss deathball or MMM with different art. If we wanted a non-positional mobile army we would stick with MMM, but would much prefer to play strategic & positional warfare. What I loved in BW was "locking down" positions with mines, supply depots, turrets and tanks. I would play this game of conquest by taking territories down one by one, slowly engulfing the map and choking the opponent out. The reason I don't like SC2 is this does not exist, and plays less of a role even in the most positional based TvT. BW actually felt like an RTS.
i kinda disagree with this, i mean it sounds good in theory, but to actually play this way takes so much patience that in truth its actually not fun to play at all. Maybe to look at its great seeing all this positioning and stuff, but playing it is extremely frustrating. Lets not forget that some people absolutely despise watching TvT sc2 as well, just because it takes so long to watch boring tank stalemates at times. So there are Pros and Cons to having these positional warfare tactics playing/watching wise.
For me personally, i like the direction blizzard is going, where they are attempting to get both styles in use ( mech and or bio or a hybrid of Mech+bio). that to me creates the best TvT's. The buffs to get mech where you want it to be, will essentially make it be the most dominate strategy terran has thus they would always end up using mech . (case and point broodwar TvPand TvT)
my point is,strategically sc2 has it nice for terran in all matchups But when facing against Protoss. Since mech cant actually be used outside of a mass thor all in in that matchup . So a little buffing would be cool. Im Glad to see MMM strategy still in for Hots, So we might very well see 2 types of TvP players. That ones that go mech, and the ones that still do Bio focused gameplay. That to me is awesome.
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EPT
