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On June 13 2012 03:00 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good. These are the things I want to know. If the mine will always attack if an enemy unit comes close enough, they are not that great. But if you can command to attack or just turn on the auto cast ability, they could be really deadly. You could plant them and set them off when a major engagement is taking place(not on the same screen) In late game, they could be used to deny expansions or be set in or behind the "future" mineral lines where players commonly take 4th bases. These could be set off during major battles to truely tax you opponent. I really hope that terrans can control when the mines attack.
I hope there is an option for auto cast/detonate... youre not always going to be able to monitor your mines, especially if you have a lot of them
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On June 13 2012 05:28 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 03:00 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good. These are the things I want to know. If the mine will always attack if an enemy unit comes close enough, they are not that great. But if you can command to attack or just turn on the auto cast ability, they could be really deadly. You could plant them and set them off when a major engagement is taking place(not on the same screen) In late game, they could be used to deny expansions or be set in or behind the "future" mineral lines where players commonly take 4th bases. These could be set off during major battles to truely tax you opponent. I really hope that terrans can control when the mines attack. I hope there is an option for auto cast/detonate... youre not always going to be able to monitor your mines, especially if you have a lot of them
actually it's the other way around, the game needs more things that can distinguish between skilled and less skilled players.
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On June 13 2012 05:31 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 05:28 teamhozac wrote:On June 13 2012 03:00 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good. These are the things I want to know. If the mine will always attack if an enemy unit comes close enough, they are not that great. But if you can command to attack or just turn on the auto cast ability, they could be really deadly. You could plant them and set them off when a major engagement is taking place(not on the same screen) In late game, they could be used to deny expansions or be set in or behind the "future" mineral lines where players commonly take 4th bases. These could be set off during major battles to truely tax you opponent. I really hope that terrans can control when the mines attack. I hope there is an option for auto cast/detonate... youre not always going to be able to monitor your mines, especially if you have a lot of them actually it's the other way around, the game needs more things that can distinguish between skilled and less skilled players.
I agree, but not in this way. Removing auto cast from chargelots and reverting the last balance patch would be a start. Can you imagine trying to micro individually each mine while sieging/unsieging tanks, stimming, kiting, splitting, etc. That would be stupid. Terran is the only race that has to do all that stuff, micro for the other two races is basically non existant right now. Terran does not need any more difficulty in that department.
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On June 13 2012 05:31 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 05:28 teamhozac wrote:On June 13 2012 03:00 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good. These are the things I want to know. If the mine will always attack if an enemy unit comes close enough, they are not that great. But if you can command to attack or just turn on the auto cast ability, they could be really deadly. You could plant them and set them off when a major engagement is taking place(not on the same screen) In late game, they could be used to deny expansions or be set in or behind the "future" mineral lines where players commonly take 4th bases. These could be set off during major battles to truely tax you opponent. I really hope that terrans can control when the mines attack. I hope there is an option for auto cast/detonate... youre not always going to be able to monitor your mines, especially if you have a lot of them actually it's the other way around, the game needs more things that can distinguish between skilled and less skilled players.
I think a little of both is the best. Let it have auto cast, but make it so a player can always pick a better time for the mine to go off. The better player can use them to great effect, or use the auto attack to if they want to control other units and just need the mine to their thing.
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Canada11607 Posts
It really depends how numerous these widow mines are supposed to be. They are a unit, so then they probably need some way to manually over ride an auto attack (if there is an auto attack) so you can target what you want or stop lurker hold until the right time. But if it was like the original mine, only have manual attack would be insane. The mechanical skill was laying them down. There's no way you'd have time to control their attack.
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I think the warhound is actually going to diversify TvP mech. I bet the ideal composition will be a variety of siege tanks, warhounds, thors, hellions and vikings. Now that battlehellions can deal with zealots, I think siege tanks will still have place in mech armies. The range and aoe of the tank will still be necessary in dealing with large armies. Terran also has the viking which is a key unit for mech, so I don't understand why you also need another anti-air unit from the factory.
I think TvT will be fine as well, I'm betting that a warhound+siege tank player would do better against a pure warhound composition, I still think tanks and vikings will be valuable here. It will be interesting to see how widow mines will effect this match up.
We really need to just wait and see, the beta will give us answers.
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I don't like the idea of mines being a unit as they are right now - why not give hellions spider mines like vultures? Seige tanks already were made to be 3 supply and less effective, and now we have to sink additional supply into our mines too? I thought this was supposed to make mech better.
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On June 13 2012 05:35 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 05:31 TigerKarl wrote:On June 13 2012 05:28 teamhozac wrote:On June 13 2012 03:00 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good. These are the things I want to know. If the mine will always attack if an enemy unit comes close enough, they are not that great. But if you can command to attack or just turn on the auto cast ability, they could be really deadly. You could plant them and set them off when a major engagement is taking place(not on the same screen) In late game, they could be used to deny expansions or be set in or behind the "future" mineral lines where players commonly take 4th bases. These could be set off during major battles to truely tax you opponent. I really hope that terrans can control when the mines attack. I hope there is an option for auto cast/detonate... youre not always going to be able to monitor your mines, especially if you have a lot of them actually it's the other way around, the game needs more things that can distinguish between skilled and less skilled players. micro for the other two races is basically non existant right now. .
I wonder which race you play...
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On June 13 2012 05:31 TigerKarl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 05:28 teamhozac wrote:On June 13 2012 03:00 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good. These are the things I want to know. If the mine will always attack if an enemy unit comes close enough, they are not that great. But if you can command to attack or just turn on the auto cast ability, they could be really deadly. You could plant them and set them off when a major engagement is taking place(not on the same screen) In late game, they could be used to deny expansions or be set in or behind the "future" mineral lines where players commonly take 4th bases. These could be set off during major battles to truely tax you opponent. I really hope that terrans can control when the mines attack. I hope there is an option for auto cast/detonate... youre not always going to be able to monitor your mines, especially if you have a lot of them actually it's the other way around, the game needs more things that can distinguish between skilled and less skilled players.
Yup. And banelings don't have auto-mine options now, not sure why terran mines should...
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On June 13 2012 06:55 Horseballs wrote:
I don't like the idea of mines being a unit as they are right now - why not give hellions spider mines like vultures? Seige tanks already were made to be 3 supply and less effective, and now we have to sink additional supply into our mines too? I thought this was supposed to make mech better.
I brought this up a few pages back.
I hope they play around with the idea that tanks can be two food. Personally I feel that this, and the Spidermine was what made mech work in BW in the first place.
Lowering the food count only makes tanks stronger in the late game, which is where Mech is suffering the most. Often in head to head confrontations, the Terran Mech comes out even with Protoss. This is bad. Since Protoss can instantly reinforce against the slow reinforcement Mech. A 2 food tank would make a more durable army.
I would also like them to, like you suggested, give Mines to the Hellion. But, I feel that the mines must still be purchased and then placed, much like scarabs in BW. maybe even give the hellion a 3 Mine storage limit.
Basically, I can purchase 3 mines off of my hellion, run around, drop one, and purchase another.
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There is a reason why allied mines were outlawed in BW - it is simply too retarded...
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On June 13 2012 07:07 Ghostcom wrote:
There is a reason why allied mines were outlawed in BW - it is simply too retarded...
That's because Spider Mines are borderline OP even when you can't control their detonation.
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On June 13 2012 07:17 SarcasmMonster wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 07:07 Ghostcom wrote:
There is a reason why allied mines were outlawed in BW - it is simply too retarded... That's because Spider Mines are borderline OP even when you can't control their detonation.
They were only OP to people in D league. Bunches of them could be mine dragged by zeals and Lings, and they could also be picked off by dragoons, tanks and hydras.
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On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good.
My understanding is that you can control where to deploy them. You produce them and then choose the location(s) you want to control the space. After deployment I think the process is automatic i.e. some poor ling runs near them, the mine then attaches to the ling and after a few second it explodes. I believe that you can change the location of your mines whanever you want but after they lock on some unit you loose all control on the mine.
At least makes sense to me? ^^
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On June 13 2012 07:22 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 07:17 SarcasmMonster wrote:On June 13 2012 07:07 Ghostcom wrote:
There is a reason why allied mines were outlawed in BW - it is simply too retarded... That's because Spider Mines are borderline OP even when you can't control their detonation. They were only OP to people in D league. Bunches of them could be mine dragged by zeals and Lings, and they could also be picked off by dragoons, tanks and hydras.
Yes, GGamoe probably agrees with you 
A unit being OP is actually a good thing, but allied mines is bordering the stupid. The problem with widow mines is that if first it activates you have lost that unit - i.e. you can't minesweep like you could with 3 dragoons in BW.
EDIT: I think EdSlyb is correct, at least that was how I understood it as well...
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On June 13 2012 07:05 GinDo wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 06:55 Horseballs wrote:
I don't like the idea of mines being a unit as they are right now - why not give hellions spider mines like vultures? Seige tanks already were made to be 3 supply and less effective, and now we have to sink additional supply into our mines too? I thought this was supposed to make mech better. I brought this up a few pages back. I hope they play around with the idea that tanks can be two food. Personally I feel that this, and the Spidermine was what made mech work in BW in the first place. Lowering the food count only makes tanks stronger in the late game, which is where Mech is suffering the most. Often in head to head confrontations, the Terran Mech comes out even with Protoss. This is bad. Since Protoss can instantly reinforce against the slow reinforcement Mech. A 2 food tank would make a more durable army. I would also like them to, like you suggested, give Mines to the Hellion. But, I feel that the mines must still be purchased and then placed, much like scarabs in BW. maybe even give the hellion a 3 Mine storage limit. Basically, I can purchase 3 mines off of my hellion, run around, drop one, and purchase another.
Being able to replenish mines without replenishing the vulture (hellion) doesn't sound like a big change but it's actually huge.
In BW you got 3 mines per vulture, and each vulture took 30 seconds to produce. So 1 mine per 10 seconds per factory devoted to the task.
In HotS mines take 20 seconds to produce - and you can reactor them, so again it's 1 mine per 10 seconds per factory.
But if you can buy mines directly on your hellions, production is now only limited by hellion count, and doesn't consume factory time either. That's a pretty scary prospect
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On June 13 2012 06:55 Horseballs wrote:
I don't like the idea of mines being a unit as they are right now - why not give hellions spider mines like vultures? Seige tanks already were made to be 3 supply and less effective, and now we have to sink additional supply into our mines too? I thought this was supposed to make mech better.
the hellion alone is extremely cost efficient.
if they give them mines they need to remove splash.
edit; splash from regular attack obv.
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On June 13 2012 07:35 Trizz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 06:55 Horseballs wrote:
I don't like the idea of mines being a unit as they are right now - why not give hellions spider mines like vultures? Seige tanks already were made to be 3 supply and less effective, and now we have to sink additional supply into our mines too? I thought this was supposed to make mech better. the hellion alone is extremely cost efficient. if they give them mines they need to remove splash. edit; splash from regular attack obv.
hellions are just awful vs protoss, which is the matchup these mech buffs look to be aiming at. I'd be absolutely fine if not thrilled to give spider mines to hellions and getting rid of transformer hellions.
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On June 13 2012 05:35 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 05:31 TigerKarl wrote:On June 13 2012 05:28 teamhozac wrote:On June 13 2012 03:00 Plansix wrote:On June 12 2012 23:46 SarcasmMonster wrote:
"The widow mine really helps shut down attack path ways. These widow mines are like manually controlled spider mines from Starcraft 1." - Day[9] during the TvZ Battle Report
Does this mean that they only attack when commanded to? ie. Zerglings running over them won't force them to detonate? I hope so, that would make the unit quite good. These are the things I want to know. If the mine will always attack if an enemy unit comes close enough, they are not that great. But if you can command to attack or just turn on the auto cast ability, they could be really deadly. You could plant them and set them off when a major engagement is taking place(not on the same screen) In late game, they could be used to deny expansions or be set in or behind the "future" mineral lines where players commonly take 4th bases. These could be set off during major battles to truely tax you opponent. I really hope that terrans can control when the mines attack. I hope there is an option for auto cast/detonate... youre not always going to be able to monitor your mines, especially if you have a lot of them actually it's the other way around, the game needs more things that can distinguish between skilled and less skilled players. I agree, but not in this way. Removing auto cast from chargelots and reverting the last balance patch would be a start. Can you imagine trying to micro individually each mine while sieging/unsieging tanks, stimming, kiting, splitting, etc. That would be stupid. Terran is the only race that has to do all that stuff, micro for the other two races is basically non existant right now. Terran does not need any more difficulty in that department.
Agreed, the skill level for the other two races really needs to be raised to that of Terran. It's absolutely astonishing at the number of players in code S with horrible micro and unit control. At that level there is no excuse for suiciding your infestors into your opponents army with every engagement due to putting them in the same control group as the rest of your army. Protoss and Zerg need to really step it up and have their skill ceiling raised.
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On June 13 2012 07:34 Umpteen wrote:Show nested quote +On June 13 2012 07:05 GinDo wrote:On June 13 2012 06:55 Horseballs wrote:
I don't like the idea of mines being a unit as they are right now - why not give hellions spider mines like vultures? Seige tanks already were made to be 3 supply and less effective, and now we have to sink additional supply into our mines too? I thought this was supposed to make mech better. I brought this up a few pages back. I hope they play around with the idea that tanks can be two food. Personally I feel that this, and the Spidermine was what made mech work in BW in the first place. Lowering the food count only makes tanks stronger in the late game, which is where Mech is suffering the most. Often in head to head confrontations, the Terran Mech comes out even with Protoss. This is bad. Since Protoss can instantly reinforce against the slow reinforcement Mech. A 2 food tank would make a more durable army. I would also like them to, like you suggested, give Mines to the Hellion. But, I feel that the mines must still be purchased and then placed, much like scarabs in BW. maybe even give the hellion a 3 Mine storage limit. Basically, I can purchase 3 mines off of my hellion, run around, drop one, and purchase another. Being able to replenish mines without replenishing the vulture (hellion) doesn't sound like a big change but it's actually huge. In BW you got 3 mines per vulture, and each vulture took 30 seconds to produce. So 1 mine per 10 seconds per factory devoted to the task. In HotS mines take 20 seconds to produce - and you can reactor them, so again it's 1 mine per 10 seconds per factory. But if you can buy mines directly on your hellions, production is now only limited by hellion count, and doesn't consume factory time either. That's a pretty scary prospect
But if you make mines a research, you force a techlab. So no reactored Hellions.
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EPT
