07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 12:29 Parcelleus wrote: No catz and co , your 'hack scan' is what Mvp does all the time, blindly scanning where he think the army will be (to locate army).
Keep going. Spades 1 - Catz and co - 0.
PS: Your whole argument is saying he cannot scan using the mini-map - which he obviously did. That is not hacking.
No, what Spades did was apparently scan on the minimap while he was scrolling the screen with his mouse. The replay showed his view panning upwards, then stopping (locking) instantly when his camera hit fog of war to scan off screen. Then, Spadez didn't even look at the army he scanned.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Why do I not feel shocked at all by this?
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
I really hope TL does post who the "OP" actually is.
WHY aren't we focusing on the koreans?
Because we need EVIDENCE.
People treated that post as ev for spades, though
On top of the replay analysis.
The match fixing scandal started with a wonky post by rek about the Koreans. It makes me a bit nervous T_T
If as some people say... "lots of people better than spades hack/cheat" (and if spades truly does cheat) please provide evidence and convict them too... because as it stands, you are going to crush a gamer's career where he did only what he saw was happening among his peers, and while he may not be morally correct in doing so, you can't blame him for trying to get the same advantage over players that they may very well have over him. Now I'm not saying that this conduct shouldn't go ahead and have some significant consequence for him... but it shouldn't be the end of his career and should not void all of the countless hours he has spent in practice. Maybe put him on a list where he would have to play less online tournaments and more LAN tournaments (just a reasonable example out of many possibilities).
Now that said, if the community does decide to shun / kill his career then let me say this. Do not stop at just him. Actively pursue every SC2 pro in the community (even the obscure Korean players) and make sure of their legitimacy. Even white-ra, nestea,and the gracken should be on the list of targets even if they are immense fan favorites in the community. Mainly, our "justice" should be undertaken in an objective manner or not at all.
Edit: It's kind of sad that this thread is moving so fast that my thoughts probably won't be read , oh wells
On June 05 2012 12:15 cArn- wrote: This is getting really pathetic, you can point out things that look suspicious very easily for any good player.. I'm baffled as to how this thread is stilll going and those so called "analysis" are taken seriously.
So fucking disgusting
There are 4 pros analyzing this right now, and it's so obvious that he is hacking. he is fucking moving and engaging his army while he is watching his base for like 6 straight seconds, and he moves his army while the enemies army is in the fog of war.
There is NO way he isn't hacking. there are so many instances that couldn't just be pure coincidences.
I could do the same shit after watching 6-7 replays of any other player, and according to this completely flawed logic most korenas are hacking. This is no proof and is never gonna be, you always have days when you sense things more even if you're not a super top player, especially when you study a bunch of games of your opponent before playing him.
That is part of what I find funny. If we were looking at a top and, more importantly, well-loved Korean player people would have an entirely different perception.
On June 05 2012 12:30 whiterabbit wrote: Why are we still focused on Spades? We have post saying Koreans we all love do cheat even at big LANs like MLG... I am... well... fuck everything if Koreans have to stream cheat and have other player giving them tips in middle of game at LANs... how does that even get allowed?! FUCK ME!
Games not played on the main stage at MLG are horribly horribly policed, I would not be surprised if something like this went on with people watching over their friends' opponents shoulder.
On June 05 2012 04:33 C-ZG wrote: I'd like a good terran player to review all this, because I don't see any actual proof.
What do you define as actual proof though? Short of physically watching somebody load the hack, I don't think you can have what I believe you are referring to as "actual proof".
That being said, since the OP only has 1 post, this evidence should be reviewed
I'm new to TL. There are other posts saying that the fact that this post is OP's 1st takes away credibility from the post. Why is that?
Typically people make new accounts, so they'll have 0 posts, to "troll" or say outlandish things. However in this situation it seems the person made a new account to not tarnish his reputation or call out a friend, presumably the OP is a higher status community personality.
On June 05 2012 12:30 whiterabbit wrote: Why are we still focused on Spades? We have post saying Koreans we all love do cheat even at big LANs like MLG... I am... well... fuck everything if Koreans have to stream cheat and have other player giving them tips in middle of game at LANs... how does that even get allowed?! FUCK ME!
Yeah, that's even more interesting. I don't think that'll be able to fly under the radar for long.
Catz has a point about not clicking into fog of war in 'hacked game' but ladder games it happens all the time. Those habits dont really change - I agree with that catz.
On June 05 2012 12:26 Toons wrote: Why are people surprised that:
1. Lesser known players will do anything to try and gain popularity to cash in; and 2. Known players (i.e. Koreans) would stream cheat in order to gain bragging/honour/money from their friends?
The naivety of the SC2 community is funny.
You have way more $$$ involved in esports now.
In RL, people rob you for $5 and a candy bar, what makes you think they won't cheat at a video game for $100-$1000-$10000?
we are not suprised but this threatens sc2 as a legit competition
I think that this has always been there, ladder & online competitions are a complete, irrelevant, joke.
You can't have online and legit, and I think there are a few pro's that have been saying that for a long time...
On June 05 2012 12:24 QuanticTheognis wrote: Things just got cray. O_O
Sums it up pretty fucking well. This is sad. I wish human beings were nice and fair and we didn't even have to consider if someone would try to cheat in a competitive environment. It sucks we do witch hunts. Shit like this makes me seriously want to never watch community news, and only watch various tournaments so I can avoid as much drama as possible, but places like teamliquid can be so positive as well.
To be honest, Spades is not relevant to me at all. He wasn't relevant before this whole situation, and he wont be relevant afterwards. I feel bad for the guy if he's guilty or not, a public trial can't be enjoyable. I hope someone can come up with a clever way to, hopefully through a program, that can clearly identify hacks of every kind so we don't have to do this on a maybe and possibly basis. At least we don't have to worry about cheating in lan tournaments like professional sports have to worry about peds.
On June 05 2012 12:29 Parcelleus wrote: No catz and co , your 'hack scan' is what Mvp does all the time, blindly scanning where he think the army will be (to locate army).
Keep going. Spades 1 - Catz and co - 0.
PS: Your whole argument is saying he cannot scan using the mini-map - which he obviously did. That is not hacking.
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
Wrong, SC2 is a public e-sport, the community are entitled to have their say and "judgement".
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Your credibility is on the line
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
Irrelevant.
Your wrong it's the teams responsibility not the community.
No? It's the teams responsibility to review and, if necessary, punish. However, the community are definitely entitled to their views.
On June 05 2012 12:15 cArn- wrote: This is getting really pathetic, you can point out things that look suspicious very easily for any good player.. I'm baffled as to how this thread is stilll going and those so called "analysis" are taken seriously.
So fucking disgusting
There are 4 pros analyzing this right now, and it's so obvious that he is hacking. he is fucking moving and engaging his army while he is watching his base for like 6 straight seconds, and he moves his army while the enemies army is in the fog of war.
There is NO way he isn't hacking. there are so many instances that couldn't just be pure coincidences.
I could do the same shit after watching 6-7 replays of any other player, and according to this completely flawed logic most korenas are hacking. This is no proof and is never gonna be, you always have days when you sense things more even if you're not a super top player, especially when you study a bunch of games of your opponent before playing him.
That is part of what I find funny. If we were looking at a top and, more importantly, well-loved Korean player people would have an entirely different perception.
"OMG what amazing game sense."
"So pro!"
"Godlike! Next bonjwa!"
"How did he do that? Crazy star sense!"
Way to miss 90% of what is being presented on that stream.
On June 05 2012 12:25 TenJin`Lucian wrote: I just love how people keep asking Catz to open the APM tab to check on what hes doing while "screen locked", and still that is the thing he does not checks.
APM is average over a few seconds, I doubt it could be used to notice a major difference during screen locks.
There is also CURRENT APM, also, if it is over a few seconds, if he screen locks and then take to looks over the map, his APM will drop regardless over the average he had before.
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
Wrong, SC2 is a public e-sport, the community are entitled to have their say and "judgement".
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Your credibility is on the line
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
Irrelevant.
Your wrong it's the teams responsibility not the community.
No? It's the teams responsibility to review and, if necessary, punish. However, the community are definitely entitled to their views.
No? Tournaments will act on the community finding damning evidence. I don't think Spades will be allowed to play in future tournaments based on what I'm watching.
it's unfortunate to see piles of circumstantial evidence piled up against a player be taken as concluding a player's guilt. it doesn't help that several respected players that were biased going into their investigation are presenting it to 4000 viewers. while some of what they are talking about is sketchy, an equal bit is actually ridiculous to outline as conclusive evidence.
the damage has been done to Spades' reputation without actually having proven anything. this is sad to see.
If a player can hack in BW when there wasn't any money to be had, do they become more likely or less likely to hack when the perks increase for achieving good results? Once you are proven to have cheated in the past, you have shown what you're capable of. You deserve to be scrutinized thoroughly and regularly. If you're afraid of holding people accountable, for fear of backlash or "being that guy," then you're only contributing to there being more hackers.
I can only hope that when I play games and use a certain strategy that people won't suspect I might do it again. You're a fool if you don't realize the chance of it happening again. You shouldn't necessarily bank on it either. You simply scout for it... Same kinda deal. Sympathy for cheaters... if you have nothing to hide, the truth comes out, anyways. If you want to be vindicated, you simply produce results offline to gain some credibility. You don't lose credibility and then earn benefit of the doubt for no reason.