07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 12:36 BlueyD wrote: The evidence against Spades looks pretty conclusive to me: The 'hack' games have Spades never looking at fog of war, so something shady is going on here.
On the Mirhi accusations against Koreans: Hearsay for now. If Koreans use maphacks like this on occasion, then there should be suspicious replays of them as well.
he said nothing about maphacking, he said streamcheating
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
..................
Isn't this much more serious than this Spades scandal? o_O
Ok, we need foreigner's words on this. Jinro, naniwa, sase, Nightend, etc. If koreans are cheating at these events, that's dispicable. Spades is done. We now have much bigger things on our hands.
This lack of him looking at his scouting scv on entombed is almost concrete if you consider the quality of players in question. Watching/microing the scouting scv is something every single player that plays this game does.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
..................
Isn't this much more serious than this Spades scandal? o_O
Exponentially more serious if it's true, although it's completely impossible to prove/enforce this, whereas we have replays on Spades.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
..................
Isn't this much more serious than this Spades scandal? o_O
Not really. I remember being at MLG and hearing Koreans chatting with each other at an MLG I attended. They'd stand behind someone and just remark on the game. My friend translated some of it for me and they were basically just giving very, very broad thoughts on the game. It wasn't back seat Sc2 like Mihai is making it seem. The Koreans are pros; they don't need Leenock telling them how to scout or something.
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
Wrong, SC2 is a public e-sport, the community are entitled to have their say and "judgement".
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Your credibility is on the line
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
Irrelevant.
Your wrong it's the teams responsibility not the community.
No? It's the teams responsibility to review and, if necessary, punish. However, the community are definitely entitled to their views.
No? Tournaments will act on the community finding damning evidence. I don't think Spades will be allowed to play in future tournaments based on what I'm watching.
The "damning evidence" - even if you just take the non-clicking into the fog of war - of Spades being reviewed and clearly showing bonjwa gamesense or maphacking. Spades also dodging relevant questions about what's being found. If it were me, I'd be trying to get in on that Skype call, i'd be screaming in this thread about my innocence.
If he goes to MLG this weekend, he's going to get smashed.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Quick question: How does Spades and Artist know MANY Koreans frequently stream cheat? That's a big accusation.
"well he sends an scv scout and he never looks at it, it goes in his base and he never checks the scv"
I do this all the damn time, it's because I suck and I can't keep up with simple stuff. I'll all of a sudden look at my minimap and "oh crap my scv is leaving his main"
Anyway, that scv saw everything it needed ( the gas ). Catz is on a witch hunt
Illusion, I never thought I would see this out of you
These bro's should be practicing for some MLG, not seeking free opportunity for ad revenue. Sure its kinda neat for them to be doing this but nothing will be magically solved because Catz and Co toss this in front of us. We need a better detective than TT1, we need to poke Rob Simpson.
All of this drama involving spades potentially hacking, Him according to Mihri stream cheating during showmatches are bad for competition.
If people are able to hack and stream cheat etc and blizz cant detect it or the streams get delayed this is just bad and needs to be resolved by blizz developing anti hacks and streamed online tournaments need to be delayed so streamcheating is less appealing.
Imagine you are a player and there are hacks or stream cheating available why not? This is why we need countermeasures for this so competition in sc2 can be legit instead of every online result having to be considered potentially null.
So I think this Spades drama really just segways into a bigger problem
EPT
