Simple Questions, Simple Answers - Page 53
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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monk
United States8476 Posts
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puppykiller
United States3126 Posts
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Puyi
United States175 Posts
On December 25 2011 04:15 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: Wtf? You have range vs 3 hatch muta, and you have it started vs 2. 3h muta comes around 6:30-6:45 can't remember 2h. Edit: to clarify that's around when they hatch, not reach your base. oh well i push out when stim is 3/4th done and mutas usually pop a few seconds after im at his natural maybe thats more then 20-30 seconds idk im guestimating. btw im not talking about pro games im talking about dlvl iccup players | ||
CaffeineFree-_-
United States712 Posts
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Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
They realize mutas are not being effective so they scramble for lurkers like madmen. Why not just go straight for 2 base lurker/ling and push the T back since they wont have vessel by then. The muta tech delays the lurker and makes the bio push scary. Or am I missing the point of muta play? I understand why you go muta first in PvZ to stop the sairs and snipe the templars. 2. If muta tech first is best in ZvT, then is there ever a time where going lurker first is better? Like would it be better to go lurker against a meching terran (mass goliath with tanks, and even vults)? Thanks! | ||
Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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phyren
United States1067 Posts
On December 25 2011 15:35 Golgotha wrote: 1. Been watching PL and in TvZ, many times I see Zerg scrambling to get lurkers to stop the Bio push. Well, they go for mutas first but mutas dont really do much since the T has turrets and the marines are all bunched up and hard to snipe one by one. They realize mutas are not being effective so they scramble for lurkers like madmen. Why not just go straight for 2 base lurker/ling and push the T back since they wont have vessel by then. The muta tech delays the lurker and makes the bio push scary. Or am I missing the point of muta play? I understand why you go muta first in PvZ to stop the sairs and snipe the templars. 2. If muta tech first is best in ZvT, then is there ever a time where going lurker first is better? Like would it be better to go lurker against a meching terran (mass goliath with tanks, and even vults)? Thanks! The point of mutas is different depending on how early you get them, but basically the idea is to get map control and harass. Terran has to build the turrets and keep the marines back to defend. During this time zerg is able to expand and get a third gas that will allow lurker production as well as hive tech. If you go straight for lurkers and the terran realizes it, then terran can move out and contain you and/or just defend with bunkers. Lurkers take a lot of damage while burrowing, so you need to have a decent mass of them to try to push across the map as well as plenty of lings. Committing to this many units without the third can be all in (2 hatch lurkers) or just very aggressive (3 hatch). Also, terran doesn't have to spend several hundred minerals on turrets and gets to have a pristine economy. Mutas usually aren't used to stop sair play. Scourge do that decently well. In fact, protoss will get sairs specifically to kill mass mutas. I like to go lurker first against 1 basing terrans. Lurkers do better in a head on engagement than mutas and force scans that are limited off 1 comsat. Lurkers are almost always terrible against mech. They can be good as a timing, since meching players will delay academy and can lose the game to a fast lurker rush. Also, they are basically invincible under a dark swarm, so they can be useful to hold chokes in a late game. That said, mutas are paradoxically the best choice against mech. Terran has to keep making goliaths and turrets, and the mutas are gas heavy leaving minerals to mass expand. Then you switch into hydras, and terran can't move out without tanks. | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On December 25 2011 16:44 Phyrigian wrote: muta first is to hold back the terran and to snipe small clumps of mm. 2 hatch lurker ling would be kinda all in because no drones. all terran would have to do is scout and throw down 3 bunkers, wait for a tank and gg. you are completely missing the point of muta play. the mutas are made to establish the 3rd gas for the zerg and to have carapace and lurkers on the way and to scout the terrans tech route. if you went lurker first (which is common) you'd have to do damage because you're not exactly holding the terran back the same way because with a decent mm spread the terran can break the lurkers at the front, and can stall with a few bunkers. 3 hatch lurker is common at D level play and is still viable at top, but theres just your reasoning. lurkers vs meching terran would be worse then mutas, for sure, a tank would just shut it down. I'm sorry, I didn't explain that to the full extent it made sense in my head and it wasn't very clear, but I hope you couldn't understand to a reasonable extent! thanks for the explanation. it seems like mutas are better at keeping the terran in base? that is what everyone is telling me so far. Keep the terran in base while you get your 3rd up. I do understand what you are saying about tanks shutting down lurkers, but after spire tech you go for lurkers to shut down tanks anyway! Everyone goes lurker in TvZ. Why not just get them sooner? But now I see that mutas make it so that you can get an economic advantage with the threat of mutas. Lurkers cannot do this as well as mutas. I always thought that you could keep the terran in base with lurkers at his front ( lurker contain ) while I expo behind that. but i do see how that is pretty much do or die if I am on two base. 3 base lurker sounds good though. It would stop the mid game push and I can spread out my lurkers so he would have to scan like mad or wait for a vessel if I spread my lurkers. Pretty much what I've been doing so far, cuz I am really bad with mutas and lurkers make me feel safe. | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On December 25 2011 16:58 phyren wrote: The point of mutas is different depending on how early you get them, but basically the idea is to get map control and harass. Terran has to build the turrets and keep the marines back to defend. During this time zerg is able to expand and get a third gas that will allow lurker production as well as hive tech. If you go straight for lurkers and the terran realizes it, then terran can move out and contain you and/or just defend with bunkers. Lurkers take a lot of damage while burrowing, so you need to have a decent mass of them to try to push across the map as well as plenty of lings. Committing to this many units without the third can be all in (2 hatch lurkers) or just very aggressive (3 hatch). Also, terran doesn't have to spend several hundred minerals on turrets and gets to have a pristine economy. Mutas usually aren't used to stop sair play. Scourge do that decently well. In fact, protoss will get sairs specifically to kill mass mutas. I like to go lurker first against 1 basing terrans. Lurkers do better in a head on engagement than mutas and force scans that are limited off 1 comsat. Lurkers are almost always terrible against mech. They can be good as a timing, since meching players will delay academy and can lose the game to a fast lurker rush. Also, they are basically invincible under a dark swarm, so they can be useful to hold chokes in a late game. That said, mutas are paradoxically the best choice against mech. Terran has to keep making goliaths and turrets, and the mutas are gas heavy leaving minerals to mass expand. Then you switch into hydras, and terran can't move out without tanks. ah I see. you make a good point about the terran just bunkering up in front of my nat if he sees my fast den. I would not be able to do much at that point. Gotcha. | ||
JMave
Singapore1802 Posts
On December 25 2011 17:06 Golgotha wrote: thanks for the explanation. it seems like mutas are better at keeping the terran in base? that is what everyone is telling me so far. Keep the terran in base while you get your 3rd up. I do understand what you are saying about tanks shutting down lurkers, but after spire tech you go for lurkers to shut down tanks anyway! Everyone goes lurker in TvZ. Why not just get them sooner? But now I see that mutas make it so that you can get an economic advantage with the threat of mutas. Lurkers cannot do this as well as mutas. I always thought that you could keep the terran in base with lurkers at his front ( lurker contain ) while I expo behind that. but i do see how that is pretty much do or die if I am on two base. 3 base lurker sounds good though. It would stop the mid game push and I can spread out my lurkers so he would have to scan like mad or wait for a vessel if I spread my lurkers. Pretty much what I've been doing so far, cuz I am really bad with mutas and lurkers make me feel safe. 3 hatch lurkers isn''t bad. the reason why most high level players go for mutalisks rather than lurkers is because of the scouting advantage and the ability to apply mid-game pressure. it may not seem like a lot but at that particular timing, having to add on that extra few turrets before you have a good scv count and economic flow running makes a very big difference to your marine count since your additional rax will be delayed. the spire tech also gives you the option to move into guardians against the mech timing and to get scourges against the first vessel. 3 hatch lurker allows him to cut corners and he can easily delay the vessel slightly for tank siege and your timing attack will be easily crushed. i have written a short build write up about going for fake 2 hatch lurker to deflect the early marine push for a fast 3rd gas that moves into a very fast hive. | ||
MrRicewife
Canada515 Posts
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Puyi
United States175 Posts
On December 25 2011 09:33 CaffeineFree-_- wrote: What does that mean, d level zergs have slower mutas or d lvl terran don't get range on time? I don't follow. If you don't have range vs 3h muta then you're doing something very wrong. i probably do have range by the time mutas reach my base. im comparing it to stim not range because its easier for me to notice when stim finishes than when range finishes. i mean whats more noticeable seeing the stim icon on ur marines or hearing a research complete voice in the background? | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
On December 25 2011 18:06 JMave wrote: 3 hatch lurkers isn''t bad. the reason why most high level players go for mutalisks rather than lurkers is because of the scouting advantage and the ability to apply mid-game pressure. it may not seem like a lot but at that particular timing, having to add on that extra few turrets before you have a good scv count and economic flow running makes a very big difference to your marine count since your additional rax will be delayed. the spire tech also gives you the option to move into guardians against the mech timing and to get scourges against the first vessel. 3 hatch lurker allows him to cut corners and he can easily delay the vessel slightly for tank siege and your timing attack will be easily crushed. i have written a short build write up about going for fake 2 hatch lurker to deflect the early marine push for a fast 3rd gas that moves into a very fast hive. hey can you post that build? sounds wonderful for my playstyle. | ||
Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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lyAsakura
United States1414 Posts
On December 26 2011 05:13 Golgotha wrote: hey can you post that build? sounds wonderful for my playstyle. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285873 | ||
Golgotha
Korea (South)8418 Posts
question: I read about how to stop cannon rushers, specifically when they do it BEHIND the natural mineral line! ARGH! But what is this mineral jump trick that they speak of? Without it I cannot get 3-4 workers on each cannon. Can someone teach me how to do this? Itching to start shutting the BS down | ||
hacklebeast
United States5090 Posts
On December 26 2011 09:42 Golgotha wrote: ty ty! question: I read about how to stop cannon rushers, specifically when they do it BEHIND the natural mineral line! ARGH! But what is this mineral jump trick that they speak of? Without it I cannot get 3-4 workers on each cannon. Can someone teach me how to do this? Itching to start shutting the BS down Select your workers, then spam right click on a mineral patch so they are all stacked. Then spam click on the other side of the patches. Some if the workers will eventual glitch their way over. The key is to have them go to a spot where they are surrounded by minerals. Ideally the minerals make a slot so they are surrounded on three sides by minerals, but you should at least find a spot where the minerals make a right angle. | ||
Phyrigian
New Zealand1332 Posts
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