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On September 03 2011 00:11 meadbert wrote: I personally do not think larger tournaments should be weighed more. If the goal is determining who the best players are then all games can be given equal weight unless there is reason to believe that players are not playing hard in smaller tournaments?
Well, the only reason I brought that up is that I assumed the larger, more prestigious tournaments have more money on the line and more publicity (huge audiences watching you play live), and as a result, there is more pressure on the player to perform. I feel that the players that do perform well under this type of environment should be rewarded more for their victory than someone that wins a small $100 online tournament from the comfort of his bedroom while wearing nothing but his underwear and munching on a bag of Doritos.
To go back to my tennis analogy, there's no reason to think players are not playing as hard in the smaller Masters Tours compared to the Grand Slams. They play their heart out every match. But everyone recognizes the huge size, prestige, and monetary compensation associated with the Grand Slams, and so they are weighted more.
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On August 30 2011 14:42 Khaldor wrote: @redemption: I thought about it but to be honest im not quite sure whether that would raelly improve a ranking. First of all one would have to determine which is going to be considered a major tournament (where to you cross the line?) and in addition I'm not completely sure it would be fair towards a lot of players.
I'm still a little bit unsure if that would make sense. Would one take the group stages into consideration as well even though a lot of the games might not be more exciting than the final of a weekly cup? Maybe some additional opinions on that matter would help....
I thought about it a bit too, and I'm thinking maybe you can objectively determine the size/prestige of a tournament by the amount of money that stands to be won? I don't know if it's possible to incorporate that into the algorithm, but if you can, that seems to be a reasonably fair way to determine the relative "importance" of a tournament. High pressure victories with lots of money on the line should be appropriately rewarded, and this way, every match that's added to the database will take into account the level of pressure dealt with by the players. Your thoughts on this?
To address the second part of your question, I am not entirely sure on this either. I'm not saying this is perfect, but you could incorporate this "weighted" value based on tournament prestige starting at the quarterfinals of each tournament (completely arbitrary). The beginning stages of different tournaments will all be weighted equally, so no one gets an advantage for simply showing up to a more prestigious tournament and winning one match. However, getting deeper into such a tournament would give you an advantage in points.
Or you could be absolutely completely unbiased and do everything by looking solely at the amount of money to be won. If winning in the group stages of the GSL pays more than winning in the finals of a weekly cup, then so be it. This would be more in line with your emphasis on objectivity that you've been making throughout these posts.
Or some other combination of factors that you could think of. I'm not saying one is more right than the other. Just throwing ideas out there for you to consider.
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The weighting issue is something I have been thinking about for a while. My personal opinion eventually shifted towards to non-weighting side of things.
- There lacks existing, community agreed upon definition of major/minor tournaments. The closest of which is the BIG EVENT calender on TL. Frankly, even that is rather a crap-shoot.
- I been keeping an eye on the TLPD Elos closely for the past few months, and noticed that the Elo values have tendency to precede reputation and major tournament wins, especially in the EU arena, where weekly cups are much more prolific. I suspect the same pattern can be observed even more clearly with this improved algorithm.
- The discrepency between korean and foreigner rating are as much result of regional isolation as the simple lack of recorded games in the Korean side. There're still only 2 major tournaments (GSTL or GSL) for a korean player to participate in, so if they're knocked out early, that's it for datapoints for a month.
No amount of weighting will resolve this clear lack of data from the Korean side. Giving greater weight to GSTL and GSL will not give a cleaner rating, but instead magnify the variance that is already fairly terrible, nature intrinsic to the Korean arena. This is a mathematical limitation inherent to any ordering problem, as we learned information theory 101.
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Re: prestige
In my attempts to find a proper projection algorithm for SC2, I have experimented with several methods to account for tournament prestige. What I learned from these experience is that while certain types of players will play better in different tournament types (large or small, group or elimination, online or offline), these factors do not have a strong effect of the actual player skill rating. They are simply an added variance around the skill curve.
In other word, I find projections becomes more accurate if we disregard tournament type while making a rating calculation, then use that rating and account for for tournament type during the projection phase.
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This site is worth it for the player comparison screens alone. Great job!!
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Thanks for your comments in regards to the major event issue. I really like the posts in that regard and especially love that you name pros and cons. I personally am very sure that we would be able to implement that. I would really appreciate more opinions though.
Maybe I'll simply create another topic about that matter because I think it gets kinda lost in this thread, dont you?
Cheers Khaldor
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Hey, great job with this site! I use it very often, because its self explaining and you can look up nearly every pro
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Some things I plan to implement on the website in the future (some of them after ideas resulting from this thread):
- Expanding on the streamfollow option that is used
- option to change currency in USD
Those are at least the two things I want to have changed next. It might take some time though as we are currently moving the studio to a different location and are therefore pretty busy.
I'll keep you guys posted
Cheers, Khaldor
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After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players.
We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted.
PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D
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On September 28 2011 18:54 Khaldor wrote:After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players. We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted. PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D
What shocks me the most is this section : http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7
I am not sure how to interpret Goody as "best terran player", Mana as "best protoss player", and nerchio as "best zerg player".
Is it some kind of inside joke ? .
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On September 28 2011 19:06 ArhK wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 18:54 Khaldor wrote:After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players. We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted. PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D What shocks me the most is this section : http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7I am not sure how to interpret Goody as "best terran player", Mana as "best protoss player", and nerchio as "best zerg player". Is it some kind of inside joke ? .
You are only looking at Patch 1.4 right now. You have to change it if you want an accurate picture (top right dropdown).
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nerchio for the best zerg of 1.3 haha
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On September 28 2011 19:12 kazie wrote: nerchio for the best zerg of 1.3 haha
Just saw that as well, there has to be some kind of bug. That statistic is definitely not based on the progamer ranking ^^ I'll have it checked out and it will be fixed in the next update Has to be some old formula we used in the betastages of the website, although his 1.3 stats are pretty impressive.
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On September 28 2011 19:14 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 19:12 kazie wrote: nerchio for the best zerg of 1.3 haha Just saw that as well, there has to be some kind of bug. That statistic is definitely not based on the progamer ranking ^^ I'll have it checked out and it will be fixed in the next update Has to be some old formula we used in the betastages of the website, although his 1.3 stats are pretty impressive.
lol poor nerchio. also under replays tab, it says Topreplays (14 days). i guess it might be intentional? edit: actually the ones below arent spaced either
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On September 28 2011 19:08 Khaldor wrote:Show nested quote +On September 28 2011 19:06 ArhK wrote:On September 28 2011 18:54 Khaldor wrote:After the last few weeks I'm really interested if people still think that DRG was highly overrated in our ranking I guess as many might have realized the ranking may not be perfect just yet but still shows pretty accurate (in contradiction to ELO) the current skilllevel of most players. We'll be doing some changes (based on the input in this thread) in the future though. I'll keep you guys posted. PS: watching DRG at GSL right now is nothing short of beautiful if you are a zergplayer :D What shocks me the most is this section : http://www.sc2charts.net/en/edb?zone=7I am not sure how to interpret Goody as "best terran player", Mana as "best protoss player", and nerchio as "best zerg player". Is it some kind of inside joke ? . You are only looking at Patch 1.4 right now. You have to change it if you want an accurate picture (top right dropdown).
I know that good sir. Still, I found that pretty..."interesting" to say the least. Also, as stated previously, Nerchio top zerg of patch 1.3 is funny.
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Seems veeeery strange that Nestea's little protege, Losira, is ahead of him in this ranking. I love Losira though so if he is ahead of Nestea then woo!
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On September 28 2011 21:58 MattBarry wrote: Seems veeeery strange that Nestea's little protege, Losira, is ahead of him in this ranking. I love Losira though so if he is ahead of Nestea then woo! maybe it's because Losira was at MLG. The foreigners and Koreaner players who played in foreign tournaments are ranked higher than players who played only in Korea.
(higher than they deserve)
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It's because they won more games and against stronger opponents. You can check their matchhistory in their individual profile.
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