With the debate raging in the US and the UK being dragged into the argument as well, I'd like to know what other people think about Obama's plans.
Dan Hannan, who I often agree with, went on Fox and said he thought the UK NHS was a mistake. Dan Hannan: http://www.healthreform.gov/
While I agree that the UK health service has many flaws, that isn't to say the idea is entirely bad. It was just set up badly in the first place and hasn't been fixed since.
Let's not forget that even though we've massively increased NHS spending recently we currently spend 8% of our GDP on health care whilst American's spend 16%. And everyone in England, even if they weren't born there, gets free healthcare.
Also consider the fact that a healthy country is an efficient country. By aiding the working class with free health care it enables them to work better. It helps people out of poverty and it must also decrease crime.
If you were to create a health care service you would undoubtedly set it up better than the UK did 60 years ago and I think you would find little disadvantages. The rich would still have fantastic private care (just like they do in the UK), everyone would pay less for a decent level of care and you would be helping the disadvantaged too.
Just found this...
Poll: Do you support Obama's plans? (Vote): Yes (Vote): No (Vote): I'm not American, but Yes (Vote): I'm not American, but No
so there its : wait 11 months... wait 8 months... wait 5 months
here it is: never... never... never... or now ... spend the the rest of your life in debt
The reason some people like America's health care system is because if you have money it works great. If you don't have money... it sucks. And I agree with not comparing to UK's health care system, not all crazy nazi socialized medicine systems are the same.
On August 15 2009 22:11 RaGe wrote: Rofl, comparing it to the UK health care system is retarded. Any european knows the UK has one of the worst health care systems there is.
Exactly. It's a massive mistake to equate our service to "all health care systems are bad".
At the moment every politician in the UK is jumping to the defense of our NHS because it's "unpatriotic" to do anything else. The masses are incapable of distinguishing bad NHS from bad Doctors and so it's political suicide to criticise it.
US Medical Healthcare is owned by private companies, and they dont want to lose the business, so fear is spread about this kind of Medical Socialism, when you can get a doctor anytime in the hospital without getting worried about any expensive bill waiting, even if you die...
Last month, had to take my 2 months old son to Hospital in Madrid, as he got fever. He got a medic into 30 mins after arrival, and due to some analysis to look for infections, we had to stay in a private room (public hospital) during 5 days until result were ok and fever went down.
And you know what?? My taxes pays for it if I need this attention
Obama is taking care about this not happening again in the US
On August 15 2009 22:11 RaGe wrote: Rofl, comparing it to the UK health care system is retarded. Any european knows the UK has one of the worst health care systems there is.
Well fine, let's compare it to Sweden's or some other country then (anyone from Europe where they have a nationalised health care system should speak their opinion, I'm actually very interested but I don't know much except about my own country's).
It's from 2008 and in Swedish but I'll just give a short summary:
The queues to health care have been considered a problem for the last 10-15 years. The opposing political parties have attacked the reigning goverments about health care availability but even after power change the queues remain.
Statistics show that 30% have to wait more than 90 days to see a specialist. In general, the waiting time to see a specialist has increased while the waiting time to treatment has decreased.
I can't recall when there hasn't been a debate about queues to health care. Though in recent years some private alternatives, especially in right wing areas, have emerged. I don't know if the situation is better or worse there.
All I can say is that I don't think Sweden will move away from the current system in the near future. The key point is that Swedes just wouldn't accept if someone who's rich can get better care than someone who's poor. Personally I think that's hypocritical because we allow just that when it comes to almost every other aspect of life. But it's the sort of subtle hypocrisy that people can live with, because it's about life and death.
I guess it's about trade offs. Certainly the american system needs to change; 47 uninsured individuals is just not sustainable.
I still have no idea why people think more Government intervention especially wielding such incredible and unscrupulous power over their life and limb is a good idea. It really does boggle the mind. I'm also quite sure, none of you have either skimmed, nor read the Congressional bill being campaigned for by our oh so beneficent masters up on Capital Hill. (Which, by the way most of America is vehemently opposed to)
This is all on the heels of people actually reading what is being proposed. This isn't reform, this is a total overhaul of the system backed by a hugely bloated and inflated beaurocracy with incredible power never before seen in America, and one in which will if passed essentially make the partisanship seen now a total laughingstock (Basically, the divide will be reminiscent of the mid 1800s). There is no Constitutionality in the first place for such a system.
Contrary to what the Media continues to try and tell you; propaganda by the way, America is still the most Conservative nation on this planet. We didn't vote for what we are getting. I've talked to many a democrat who voted for Obama and they are having serious buyers remorse. The people at the town halls, tea parties, and other various functions are not GOP, they come from all backgrounds: Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, and GOP.
"The strength of "conservative" over "liberal" in the realm of political labels is vividly apparent in Gallup's state-level data, where a significantly higher percentage of Americans in most states -- even some solidly Democratic ones -- call themselves conservative rather than liberal."
What does this all mean? It means, that the majority of Americans do not want this. We are a representative constitutional republic. This means that our representatives cannot just do whatever the hell they want against their constituents and not face harsh and severe repercussions (As evidenced by prior US history).
Onto the meat and potatoes.
I'll start off by saying the measure of a countries average life expectancy is in no way indicative of their healthcare system. For one, it is a great fortune that most Americans live to 78 given that the majority of the country is overweight to obese. While the Japanese who live on average to be 82, have one of the lowest overweight populations of any country, and yet only net a 4 year gain. We all know the massive statistics in America on heart related deaths (Which is numbero uno). We have also seen a dramatic decrease every year in the percentage of fatalities, in no small part to our healthcare system.
You must measure the healthcare system on the basis of its treatment once at the facilities. John Stossel has a few good reports on the state of things. I don't think anyone here will argue the fact that the US has the greatest care recieved of any country. I think what many folks want to see is a reduction in the price of their care, not in a government takeover. Right now, the US healthcare system is in fact, heavily Government intervened, run, regulated, and co-opted by Trial lawyers who inflate prices heavily by frivolous suits and a no cap system on the maximum civil winnings.
I am truely curious. What innovations and breakthroughs have come out of a socialized healthcare system? Can you name even five in the last 100 years?
• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option! • Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure! • Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed! • Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process) • Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None. • Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services. • Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard. • Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer. • Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN) • Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange. • Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans) • Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens • Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan. • Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter. • Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed. • Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages. • Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives. • Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families. • Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll • Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income. • Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them). • Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records. • Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that. • Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected." • Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!) • Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc. • Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries. • Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs. • Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing! • Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions. • Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government. • Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies! • Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval. • Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN. • Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing. • Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc. • Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals. • Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone). • Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia? • Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time. • Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death. • Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends. • Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT. • Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life. • Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN. • Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN. • Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage. • Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.
You can cross reference these yourselves by going to those pages and reading it for yourselves. What a wonderful and benevolent apparatchiks we have up on the hill. Why wouldn't anyone dare oppose such an efficient, humanizing system?!
On August 15 2009 22:56 ParasitJonte wrote: The key point is that Swedes just wouldn't accept if someone who's rich can get better care than someone who's poor. Personally I think that's hypocritical because we allow just that when it comes to almost every other aspect of life. But it's the sort of subtle hypocrisy that people can live with, because it's about life and death.
On August 15 2009 22:49 sdpgposd wrote: fox news is bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies so dont listen to a word they say
edit: on pretty much anything actually.
Do you actually know that the major Pharma companies like Pfizer is actually siding with the Goverment in hopes of creating a monopoly (This is called crony capitalism).
On August 15 2009 22:56 ParasitJonte wrote: The key point is that Swedes just wouldn't accept if someone who's rich can get better care than someone who's poor. Personally I think that's hypocritical because we allow just that when it comes to almost every other aspect of life. But it's the sort of subtle hypocrisy that people can live with, because it's about life and death.
On August 15 2009 22:49 sdpgposd wrote: fox news is bought and paid for by pharmaceutical companies so dont listen to a word they say
edit: on pretty much anything actually.
Do you actually know that the major Pharma companies like Pfizer is actually siding with the Goverment in hopes of creating a monopoly (This is called crony capitalism).
On August 15 2009 22:56 Aegraen wrote: I still have no idea why people think more Government intervention especially wielding such incredible and unscrupulous power over their life and limb is a good idea. It really does boggle the mind.
And what boggles my mind is that you prefer trusting your life and limb to corporations, which sole goal is to earn money to its shareholders (and in this case - signing as many people as possible and dropping them as soon as they get sick). Sure goverment doesn't do its job perfectly but atleast it's priorities are in right place - people.
.....Dumbass security guards, I hate the psychiatric and the people who work in that branch and I mean here in Norway as well, some of the dumbest and most ignorant people I've ever meet worse than even school personell. I especially remember this one very young childish female shrink that blew my mind away with her ignorance. Their incompetence is baffling and ofc it's wrong to stigmatize every one of them like that, but they're still only humans that also make mistakes.
On August 15 2009 22:56 ParasitJonte wrote: The key point is that Swedes just wouldn't accept if someone who's rich can get better care than someone who's poor. Personally I think that's hypocritical because we allow just that when it comes to almost every other aspect of life. But it's the sort of subtle hypocrisy that people can live with, because it's about life and death.
Maybe you are the hypocrite ?
Oh please, do explain.
Healthcare =/= buying goods ?
In some European countries healthcare is considered as a right for even the poor people. Having a M3 or a pool isn't.
EPT
![[image loading]](http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/vje217qvrkiyszedtvznhg.gif)
![[image loading]](http://sas-origin.onstreammedia.com/origin/gallupinc/GallupSpaces/Production/Cms/POLL/ecgidtozp0guwujm07hxmq.gif)
