Healthcare Reform in the US - Page 5

On August 16 2009 01:27 imabossdude wrote:
Its obvious that not everyone can have healthcare exactly when they need it, so it will have to be rationed. So who decides who gets what? The government. Screw that. So instead of providing health care by severity/ability to pay(for smaller things), etc.

On August 16 2009 01:27 imabossdude wrote:
I understand that most young people tend to be liberal, since they haven't had a chance to make it in the real world or understand how everything works. Since most Starcraft players are young here, there is a good chance they are liberal, which the poll shows.

Most poor people in the US have Medicaid, so they get free healthcare anyways. The emergency room cannot turn anyone away, its against the law (trust me, i was there a few days ago).

They were complaining about how long they were waiting, and I wanted to say STFU b/c you arent paying anyways.

On August 16 2009 01:32 Boblion wrote:

Well i disagree. It is way more difficult to get rich if you are born in a poor family imo.
Maybe not impossible but 10x harder yes definitly.
Saying that it is their own fault to be born poor is really stupid.

On August 16 2009 01:48 Kwark wrote:


There was an awful lot about your post which was a mixture of bigotry and just plain wrong but this bit struck me as the most unusual (and the bit I felt I was most likely to sway you on). You're saying the Government will ration it which will stop the current system of health care according to severity? This struck me as extremely strange because judging by severity, ie need, is the core principle of a nationalised healthcare system, as opposed to judging according to profitability. You outline the key flaw in a private system and then reject the system based around dealing with that flaw as an argument for a private system. This confuses me.

On August 16 2009 01:54 imabossdude wrote:


Kwark, I know you think that you are a philosopher and everything, but let me clear things up for you.

I was referring to rationing if the government takes over healthcare, because right now, not EVERYONE can get EVERYTHING free, such as going to a doctor that doesn't accept Medicaid.

On August 16 2009 01:50 Tadzio wrote:


Not really. The most conservative people I've met (outside of the handful of wealthy old men I've met) have been young narcissists-- and that's a growing demographic in the US. "Why should I give more in taxes to benefit a stranger I'd gladly shoot with my constitutionally-protected firearm should they threaten to take my property or get too close to a family member?" is a sentiment I've heard pretty often from younger people.



People that qualify for Medicaid are ridiculously poor and (more than likely) children. There are 50 million citizens without healthcare... Do not suggest that "most poor people" are covered by that broken and underfunded program. Also, emergency room visits are a last-ditch medical solution that you WILL be billed for (and the bill will be massive compared to a scheduled visit).



Yes they are. If you live in California, have an HMO, and the HMO refuses to pay for something, you're not liable for the additional costs due to a (very) recent California Supreme Court ruling, but that's an exception, not a rule. In most other states you either eat the costs of an emergency room visit personally, or you have to apply for aid via a public assistance grant (i.e. government assistance, tax dollars). Don't believe me? I'm sure your recent emergency room visit is already on your credit report.

You're either deliberately making shit up, or you haven't a clue. Either way, you're wrong and your misinformation only muddies the waters of this debate. Maybe you should stfu

On August 16 2009 01:51 Charlespeirce wrote:


I don't get it. Your parents can obviously make you rich: I have done nothing and am wealthy. But your parents can't make you poor? That's ludicrous.

On August 16 2009 01:51 Charlespeirce wrote:


I don't get it. Your parents can obviously make you rich: I have done nothing and am wealthy. But your parents can't make you poor? That's ludicrous.

On August 16 2009 02:01 imabossdude wrote:


I know liberals like to attack the individual instead of the issues, but I'll be above that. I wasn't in the emergency room, I was there for my girlfriend's stepdad. Even if they do bill you, they can't refuse you care, which is what I was referring to. You should probably report me to flag@whitehouse.gov so they can track me for all the "misinformation" I am spreading.

Also, I LOVE how you judge me as a "young narcissist". You don't know me, so if you were smart you would back off of the character assassination.

I'm through debating political issues on TL. Its obvious you can't have an honest debate without being labeled or called names, as shown by the TL team member here.


Good day sir.

On August 16 2009 02:13 imabossdude wrote:
I was in the waiting room, and thats where I heard these people talking. Fuck you. I'm not arguing with you idiots anymore. You can keep team liquid.

On August 16 2009 02:13 imabossdude wrote:
I was in the waiting room, and thats where I heard these people talking. Fuck you. I'm not arguing with you idiots anymore. You can keep team liquid.

On August 15 2009 22:56 Aegraen wrote:
I still have no idea why people think more Government intervention especially wielding such incredible and unscrupulous power over their life and limb is a good idea. It really does boggle the mind. I'm also quite sure, none of you have either skimmed, nor read the Congressional bill being campaigned for by our oh so beneficent masters up on Capital Hill. (Which, by the way most of America is vehemently opposed to)

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews2.cfm?ID=1727
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.cfm?ID=1722

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/trust_on_issues


This is all on the heels of people actually reading what is being proposed. This isn't reform, this is a total overhaul of the system backed by a hugely bloated and inflated beaurocracy with incredible power never before seen in America, and one in which will if passed essentially make the partisanship seen now a total laughingstock (Basically, the divide will be reminiscent of the mid 1800s). There is no Constitutionality in the first place for such a system.

Contrary to what the Media continues to try and tell you; propaganda by the way, America is still the most Conservative nation on this planet. We didn't vote for what we are getting. I've talked to many a democrat who voted for Obama and they are having serious buyers remorse. The people at the town halls, tea parties, and other various functions are not GOP, they come from all backgrounds: Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, and GOP.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122333/Political-Ideology-Conservative-Label-Prevails-South.aspx

"The strength of "conservative" over "liberal" in the realm of political labels is vividly apparent in Gallup's state-level data, where a significantly higher percentage of Americans in most states -- even some solidly Democratic ones -- call themselves conservative rather than liberal."






What does this all mean? It means, that the majority of Americans do not want this. We are a representative constitutional republic. This means that our representatives cannot just do whatever the hell they want against their constituents and not face harsh and severe repercussions (As evidenced by prior US history).

Onto the meat and potatoes.

I'll start off by saying the measure of a countries average life expectancy is in no way indicative of their healthcare system. For one, it is a great fortune that most Americans live to 78 given that the majority of the country is overweight to obese. While the Japanese who live on average to be 82, have one of the lowest overweight populations of any country, and yet only net a 4 year gain. We all know the massive statistics in America on heart related deaths (Which is numbero uno). We have also seen a dramatic decrease every year in the percentage of fatalities, in no small part to our healthcare system.

You must measure the healthcare system on the basis of its treatment once at the facilities. John Stossel has a few good reports on the state of things. I don't think anyone here will argue the fact that the US has the greatest care recieved of any country. I think what many folks want to see is a reduction in the price of their care, not in a government takeover. Right now, the US healthcare system is in fact, heavily Government intervened, run, regulated, and co-opted by Trial lawyers who inflate prices heavily by frivolous suits and a no cap system on the maximum civil winnings.

I am truely curious. What innovations and breakthroughs have come out of a socialized healthcare system? Can you name even five in the last 100 years?

Ok, time for the actual bill.

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

All 1,018 pages.

A quick overview of the pertinent parts:

• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.



You can cross reference these yourselves by going to those pages and reading it for yourselves. What a wonderful and benevolent apparatchiks we have up on the hill. Why wouldn't anyone dare oppose such an efficient, humanizing system?!

On August 16 2009 02:20 Mortality wrote:


HAHAHA, what a wonderful post explaining everything wrong with this stupid ass policy. The longer Obama sits in office the more I become convinced that he's an asshole. The government should not have this kind of power over the common individual.

On August 16 2009 02:02 Kwark wrote:

Tell that to the older siblings who drop out of education to support the rest of their young family after a drunken father fucks off.
Also while I agree with your general sentiment in a country with social justice (which differs from socialism by aiming for equality of opportunity) the US is not such a country. Limited social security, no universal health provision and punitive fees for education do create a barrier against much of the lower class. If a Swede said what you did I'd disagree but the United States is no Sweden, there is little social justice.

On August 16 2009 02:29 Charlespeirce wrote:


I am agreeing with you. I was citing a counterargument to the idea that people are poor because of their choices. As Larry Summers put it in his own paper, the largest way of accumulating wealth in the U.S. is through intergenerational transfers. That means people get money for the most part, not by earning it, but by inheriting it. Thus, your parents make you rich or poor, not YOU or your own effort.

On August 16 2009 02:27 Charlespeirce wrote:


I already refuted this. Just read even the first part mentioned (page 16) and they are either grossly incompetent in their interpretation or, more likely, liars.