Healthcare Reform in the US - Page 2

On August 15 2009 23:14 sdpgposd wrote:


Fox news is essentially propaganda. I said nothing else. Do you think otherwise? lol

On August 15 2009 23:15 Jusciax wrote:

And what boggles my mind is that you prefer trusting your life and limb to corporations, which sole goal is to earn money to its shareholders (and in this case - signing as many people as possible and dropping them as soon as they get sick). Sure goverment doesn't do its job perfectly but atleast it's priorities are in right place - people.

On August 15 2009 23:18 Boblion wrote:

Healthcare =/= buying goods ?

In some European countries healthcare is considered as a right for even the poor people. Having a M3 or a pool isn't.

On August 15 2009 23:25 ParasitJonte wrote:


And would you also wish that restaurants where run by the government? After all, private restaurants only find the cheapest, most disgusting pieces of meat they can find, serve them raw (heating costs money) and spit in your face when you're done eating.

Right?

On August 15 2009 23:25 ParasitJonte wrote:


And would you also wish that restaurants where run by the government? After all, private restaurants only find the cheapest, most disgusting pieces of meat they can find, serve them raw (heating costs money) and spit in your face when you're done eating.

Right?

Why do you think bureaucracy somehow would lead to better treatment of individuals? Why would you trust competition and the free market in almost every other area but not this one? Do you think people in the government are some sort of angels? Their priorities lie in themselves. They are people you pay to do a job for you to support them; just like you pay any company for their services. And as you said, government is inefficient, then why hire them!?

On August 15 2009 23:39 Boblion wrote:

I'm eating at a public cantine for civil servants for 5 euros ( in fact 3,90 because i have reductions ) this month and it is >>>>>>>>>>> than any private restaurant < 15 euros.

For 5 euros you get a kebab + some chips here.

The public university restaurant @ 2,80 euros is cool too.
Way better than 10+ euros Mc Crap.

On August 15 2009 23:18 Boblion wrote:

Healthcare =/= buying goods ?

In some European countries healthcare is considered as a right for even the poor people. Having a M3 or a pool isn't.

On August 15 2009 23:25 ParasitJonte wrote:
Why do you think bureaucracy somehow would lead to better treatment of individuals?

On August 15 2009 23:25 ParasitJonte wrote:
Why would you trust competition and the free market in almost every other area but not this one?

On August 15 2009 23:38 Kwark wrote:

That might be the most coherent thing I've ever seen him say. If he's actually like that I see why he was deputy PM, as opposed to just being a joke figure who eats excessive pies, drives excessive jags and has excessive affairs. My respect for him just went up a lot.

On August 15 2009 22:56 ParasitJonte wrote:


Well fine, let's compare it to Sweden's or some other country then (anyone from Europe where they have a nationalised health care system should speak their opinion, I'm actually very interested but I don't know much except about my own country's).

On August 15 2009 23:44 Too_MuchZerg wrote:
You can still take private sector medical treatment if you aren't happy how free healthcare does it.

On August 15 2009 22:56 Aegraen wrote:
I still have no idea why people think more Government intervention especially wielding such incredible and unscrupulous power over their life and limb is a good idea. It really does boggle the mind. I'm also quite sure, none of you have either skimmed, nor read the Congressional bill being campaigned for by our oh so beneficent masters up on Capital Hill. (Which, by the way most of America is vehemently opposed to)

http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews2.cfm?ID=1727
http://www.zogby.com/news/ReadNews.cfm?ID=1722

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/32_favor_single_payer_health_care_57_oppose

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/current_events/healthcare/august_2009/support_for_congressional_health_care_reform_falls_to_new_low

http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/mood_of_america/trust_on_issues


This is all on the heels of people actually reading what is being proposed. This isn't reform, this is a total overhaul of the system backed by a hugely bloated and inflated beaurocracy with incredible power never before seen in America, and one in which will if passed essentially make the partisanship seen now a total laughingstock (Basically, the divide will be reminiscent of the mid 1800s). There is no Constitutionality in the first place for such a system.

Contrary to what the Media continues to try and tell you; propaganda by the way, America is still the most Conservative nation on this planet. We didn't vote for what we are getting. I've talked to many a democrat who voted for Obama and they are having serious buyers remorse. The people at the town halls, tea parties, and other various functions are not GOP, they come from all backgrounds: Democrats, Independents, Libertarians, and GOP.

http://www.gallup.com/poll/122333/Political-Ideology-Conservative-Label-Prevails-South.aspx

"The strength of "conservative" over "liberal" in the realm of political labels is vividly apparent in Gallup's state-level data, where a significantly higher percentage of Americans in most states -- even some solidly Democratic ones -- call themselves conservative rather than liberal."






What does this all mean? It means, that the majority of Americans do not want this. We are a representative constitutional republic. This means that our representatives cannot just do whatever the hell they want against their constituents and not face harsh and severe repercussions (As evidenced by prior US history).

Onto the meat and potatoes.

I'll start off by saying the measure of a countries average life expectancy is in no way indicative of their healthcare system. For one, it is a great fortune that most Americans live to 78 given that the majority of the country is overweight to obese. While the Japanese who live on average to be 82, have one of the lowest overweight populations of any country, and yet only net a 4 year gain. We all know the massive statistics in America on heart related deaths (Which is numbero uno). We have also seen a dramatic decrease every year in the percentage of fatalities, in no small part to our healthcare system.

You must measure the healthcare system on the basis of its treatment once at the facilities. John Stossel has a few good reports on the state of things. I don't think anyone here will argue the fact that the US has the greatest care recieved of any country. I think what many folks want to see is a reduction in the price of their care, not in a government takeover. Right now, the US healthcare system is in fact, heavily Government intervened, run, regulated, and co-opted by Trial lawyers who inflate prices heavily by frivolous suits and a no cap system on the maximum civil winnings.

I am truely curious. What innovations and breakthroughs have come out of a socialized healthcare system? Can you name even five in the last 100 years?

Ok, time for the actual bill.

http://docs.house.gov/edlabor/AAHCA-BillText-071409.pdf

All 1,018 pages.

A quick overview of the pertinent parts:

• Page 16: States that if you have insurance at the time of the bill becoming law and change, you will be required to take a similar plan. If that is not available, you will be required to take the gov option!
• Page 22: Mandates audits of all employers that self-insure!
• Page 29: Admission: your health care will be rationed!
• Page 30: A government committee will decide what treatments and benefits you get (and, unlike an insurer, there will be no appeals process)
• Page 42: The "Health Choices Commissioner" will decide health benefits for you. You will have no choice. None.
• Page 50: All non-US citizens, illegal or not, will be provided with free healthcare services.
• Page 58: Every person will be issued a National ID Healthcard.
• Page 59: The federal government will have direct, real-time access to all individual bank accounts for electronic funds transfer.
• Page 65: Taxpayers will subsidize all union retiree and community organizer health plans (example: SEIU, UAW and ACORN)
• Page 72: All private healthcare plans must conform to government rules to participate in a Healthcare Exchange.
• Page 84: All private healthcare plans must participate in the Healthcare Exchange (i.e., total government control of private plans)
• Page 91: Government mandates linguistic infrastructure for services; translation: illegal aliens
• Page 95: The Government will pay ACORN and Americorps to sign up individuals for Government-run Health Care plan.
• Page 102: Those eligible for Medicaid will be automatically enrolled: you have no choice in the matter.
• Page 124: No company can sue the government for price-fixing. No "judicial review" is permitted against the government monopoly. Put simply, private insurers will be crushed.
• Page 127: The AMA sold doctors out: the government will set wages.
• Page 145: An employer MUST auto-enroll employees into the government-run public plan. No alternatives.
• Page 126: Employers MUST pay healthcare bills for part-time employees AND their families.
• Page 149: Any employer with a payroll of $400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays an 8% tax on payroll <>BR • Page 150: Any employer with a payroll of $250K-400K or more, who does not offer the public option, pays a 2 to 6% tax on payroll
• Page 167: Any individual who doesnt' have acceptable healthcare (according to the government) will be taxed 2.5% of income.
• Page 170: Any NON-RESIDENT alien is exempt from individual taxes (Americans will pay for them).
• Page 195: Officers and employees of Government Healthcare Bureaucracy will have access to ALL American financial and personal records.
• Page 203: "The tax imposed under this section shall not be treated as tax." Yes, it really says that.
• Page 239: Bill will reduce physician services for Medicaid. Seniors and the poor most affected."
• Page 241: Doctors: no matter what speciality you have, you'll all be paid the same (thanks, AMA!)
• Page 253: Government sets value of doctors' time, their professional judgment, etc.
• Page 265: Government mandates and controls productivity for private healthcare industries.
• Page 268: Government regulates rental and purchase of power-driven wheelchairs.
• Page 272: Cancer patients: welcome to the wonderful world of rationing!
• Page 280: Hospitals will be penalized for what the government deems preventable re-admissions.
• Page 298: Doctors: if you treat a patient during an initial admission that results in a readmission, you will be penalized by the government.
• Page 317: Doctors: you are now prohibited for owning and investing in healthcare companies!
• Page 318: Prohibition on hospital expansion. Hospitals cannot expand without government approval.
• Page 321: Hospital expansion hinges on "community" input: in other words, yet another payoff for ACORN.
• Page 335: Government mandates establishment of outcome-based measures: i.e., rationing.
• Page 341: Government has authority to disqualify Medicare Advantage Plans, HMOs, etc.
• Page 354: Government will restrict enrollment of SPECIAL NEEDS individuals.
• Page 379: More bureaucracy: Telehealth Advisory Committee (healthcare by phone).
• Page 425: More bureaucracy: Advance Care Planning Consult: Senior Citizens, assisted suicide, euthanasia?
• Page 425: Government will instruct and consult regarding living wills, durable powers of attorney, etc. Mandatory. Appears to lock in estate taxes ahead of time.
• Page 425: Goverment provides approved list of end-of-life resources, guiding you in death.
• Page 427: Government mandates program that orders end-of-life treatment; government dictates how your life ends.
• Page 429: Advance Care Planning Consult will be used to dictate treatment as patient's health deteriorates. This can include an ORDER for end-of-life plans. An ORDER from the GOVERNMENT.
• Page 430: Government will decide what level of treatments you may have at end-of-life.
• Page 469: Community-based Home Medical Services: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 472: Payments to Community-based organizations: more payoffs for ACORN.
• Page 489: Government will cover marriage and family therapy. Government intervenes in your marriage.
• Page 494: Government will cover mental health services: defining, creating and rationing those services.



You can cross reference these yourselves by going to those pages and reading it for yourselves. What a wonderful and benevolent apparatchiks we have up on the hill. Why wouldn't anyone dare oppose such an efficient, humanizing system?!

On August 15 2009 23:42 pubbanana wrote:


Where do you work/go to school, exactly?

On August 15 2009 23:49 Charlespeirce wrote:


Gee, did you copy and paste all of this from your 'white power' websites?

http://blogs.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=blog.ListAll&friendId=480480210

On August 15 2009 23:48 Aegraen wrote:


I'll be blunt. You have no idea what you are talking about. If you want to inform yourself, read the bill yourself which I linked to.

On August 15 2009 23:43 Alur wrote:


ParasitJonte has a point, healthcare is fundamentally very much like many other crafts, you pay for the expertise of the doctor and for the resources they use on helping you (whether through taxes or direct payment). It is only logical that those who are rich are able to get higher quality health care, it just isn't very romantic.