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I just watched this movie a week ago, searched TL and only found a year ago thread about it so I decided to make this one.
Steal this film (click to download) is a documentary about intellectual copyright and piracy. It has 2 parts but part one I found a bit silly, you don't really need to watch that since it's mostly about a specific police raid that happen against the PirateBay in Sweden and some propaganda about their website. But part two is very interesting, it shows a historical analysis of how copyright laws and piracy started and goes back to the invention of printing. I personally did not know the term "pirate" were used for people who would manually print books hundreds of years ago.
So I wanted to know what do you guys think about the subject? I've read in another threads some of you saying that pirating is inhumanly awful only because it's illegal without ever pondering why is it illegal in the first place or who are these laws created for. I personally can think of dozens of pro-pirate arguments but only one single pro-intellectual-copyright argument (it makes some few rich people...richer! it's good for a few who economically benefits off copyrights).
So what do you think about it?
edit: Sorry for my bad over-generalization when I said the only pro intellectual property argument was "it makes some few rich people...richer". That was a sad wording on my part, I didn't think people would take it literally. Many people flamed me on replies because of that and it was well deserved. What I was trying to mean was "it's good for a few who economically benefits off copyrights". Of course not everyone who has a job related to entertainment is "rich". But they're still a very small few compared against those who copyrights harm.
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I'm going to say what I always say when it comes to these things.
Piracy is stealing another persons work, and saying it's not is just bullshit. I do think however, that artists and moviemakers and what not, are charging WAAAAAAAY too much for a god damn album or a dvd movie.
Before you go off saying "lol like you've never downloaded anything" Oh yes, I have, in fact, I'm probably one of those who take absolute FULL advantage of it. Not because I think it's actually my right to do so, but because I can, and as long as I can, I will continue to do so.
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United States12244 Posts
I work in the game industry. Games are extremely expensive to produce and maintain, and gamers themselves are extremely harsh critics of products. Most games are expensive to buy, but developers rely on those sales to pay their employees and invest in future games. At my company, QA testers get paid from the company payroll, but QA leads, engineers, producers and occasionally managers get paid a flat salary then a bonus based on the units sold. The bonus I got last year was around 20% of last year's salary as a QA lead. The amount of the bonus is directly related to what the company can afford to give each employee based on overall company sales, position within the company, and performance. I'm in production now so I can't say yet what this year's bonus will be, but it will certainly depend on how our sales did. Because piracy directly affects sales numbers negatively (every copy pirated is a copy not sold) I think it's safe to say that sold copies directly pay a significant portion of my salary, and that of my coworkers. I can most definitely assure you that I'm not rich, as well =]
EDIT: Regarding "every copy pirated is a copy not sold", I am intentionally generalizing here. There are infrequent cases where people use piracy as a "try before you buy" method, and there are cases which are equally as infrequent where people will pirate without any intention of buying the product. In most situations though, neither of those are the case, and the generalization holds true.
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Belgium6775 Posts
On October 04 2008 05:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:
I work in the game industry. Games are extremely expensive to produce and maintain, and gamers themselves are extremely harsh critics of products. Most games are expensive to buy, but developers rely on those sales to pay their employees and invest in future games. At my company, QA testers get paid from the company payroll, but QA leads, engineers, producers and occasionally managers get paid a flat salary then a bonus based on the units sold. The bonus I got last year was around 20% of last year's salary as a QA lead. The amount of the bonus is directly related to what the company can afford to give each employee based on overall company sales, position within the company, and performance. I'm in production now so I can't say yet what this year's bonus will be, but it will certainly depend on how our sales did. Because piracy directly affects sales numbers negatively (every copy pirated is a copy not sold) I think it's safe to say that sold copies directly pay a significant portion of my salary, and that of my coworkers. I can most definitely assure you that I'm not rich, as well =]
What company do you work for?
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On October 04 2008 05:31 meRz wrote:
Piracy is stealing another persons work, and saying it's not is just bullshit. It is stealing because the laws say so. Now why do the laws say so? Laws are created to protect and benefit one person or entity. Those laws definitely doesn't benefit myself, neither does it benefit 99% of the population.
Excalibur_Z, your post could be resumed to "copyright benefits me, I make money off it so does my colleagues. Piracy reduces our income, therefore pirating is a bad thing.". Yea it's bad, for you. Not for myself nor for 99% of the population.
Like I said in my first post, both Excalibur and Merz are using the only pro-copyright argument I know that exists: it makes money for a few people (very very few people).
There many other ways for you (Excalibur_Z or anyone on gaming biz) and your company to make money off software other than copyright sales. Sponsors, ads and mainly services. Take WoW for example, it's the most successful game today and the software is free, you are just charged for the intense support service. Google as another example, a huge software company that has success written all over it. All their sofware are free. They live off charging for services and ad revenue.
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???? what?
It's not stealing because the law says so, it's stealing because thats exactly what stealing is. Also those laws benefit EVERYONE, not just "1%" of the population. What kind of bullshit logic is that.
In fact, your whole post is trash. Excal just explained to you how it directly effects him, and that it isn't just a few ripples in a rich pond that gets affected and you come back with this crap.
It's even more hilarious that you suggest for software companies to make money in other ways beyond...selling their products and services. You're a fucking idiot.
Sponsors? Ads? Do you even know ANYTHING about the gaming industry? Do you know how stupid it would be for 3rd party developers to even TRY and get sponsorship without a track record or buy ads with no $$?
World of Warcraft IS NOT FREE. The subscription price you pay is added on to the initial price of the game. Google's business model is different than most (like 95%+) software companies in the fact that they are an internet search software site. They have no other way to make money besides ads and sponsors. Get it through your thick skull: every company can not do that. In fact, even if they could who are they to listen to some dumbass on the internet telling them they make too much money for their own good. Pathetic.
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I wouldn't pirate PC games if there was an easy and convenient test/demo service >.<
I've wasted too much much money on games that turn out to be crap. Thank god I didn't pay for spore; it was fun for like 3 hours.
That's my #1 piracy motivation
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I saw that in my ITGS class, pretty nice.
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On October 04 2008 06:17 VIB wrote:It is stealing because the laws say so. Now why do the laws say so? Laws are created to protect and benefit one person or entity. Those laws definitely doesn't benefit myself, neither does it benefit 99% of the population.
Excalibur_Z, your post could be resumed to "copyright benefits me, I make money off it so does my colleagues. Piracy reduces our income, therefore pirating is a bad thing.". Yea it's bad, for you. Not for myself nor for 99% of the population.
Like I said in my first post, both Excalibur and Merz are using the only pro-copyright argument I know that exists: it makes money for a few people (very very few people).
There many other ways for you (Excalibur_Z or anyone on gaming biz) and your company to make money off software other than copyright sales. Sponsors, ads and mainly services. Take WoW for example, it's the most successful game today and the software is free, you are just charged for the intense support service. Google as another example, a huge software company that has success written all over it. All their sofware are free. They live off charging for services and ad revenue.
It is stealing because it is. It only doesn't feel as bad to be stealing in this manner because there's nothing physical being taken. As for saying that the law doesn't make sense since it only benefits a few people who stand to profit from not being stolen from, would this suggest that laws prohibiting shoplifting are silly? It would benefit so many people if they could all just walk in to the store to take what they want and leave.
Regardless of whether or not you do it, it's ridiculous to not think you're stealing, and it's ridiculous to think their work shouldn't be protected. Even I download some music and games, but at least I don't try to justify my actions by faulting the law and claiming that those few affected are just selfish.
By the way, World of Warcraft is not free. Google is not a game or music. Would you prefer it if your games all required an internet connection and a monthly fee to play? Or maybe you're suggesting all software developers should go into the web advertising business and quit creating games.
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On October 04 2008 05:32 Excalibur_Z wrote:(every copy pirated is a copy not sold)
Wrong.
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Excalibur_Z, your post could be resumed to "copyright benefits me, I make money off it so does my colleagues. Piracy reduces our income, therefore pirating is a bad thing.". Yea it's bad, for you. Not for myself nor for 99% of the population
What a ridiculous thing to say. You are just going to do what's good for yourself without regard for laws? There are many many things in the world that are for sale, and stealing any of them is both illegal and immoral. ex: I would really really like a car, and there are some for sale in the car lot down the street. There are laws that prevent me from stealing it, but those laws only benefit a few people, not me or 99% of the population. Therefore those laws are wrong, and I should steal it anyway. Ludicrous.
p.s. Regarding WoW, I would just like to point out a contradiction in your using that example. Yes, it is the most successful game, and yes you can get the game for free, but it wasn't always free. It's free now because of how successful it was. They have so many subscribers that they can afford to give the game itself away. But this is a problem for other developers who have fewer subscribers and need to sell copies of the game to make money. They lose potential customers who take the cheaper route and play WoW. Thus, making the game free only made, to quote your first post "some few rich people... richer!"
EDIT: evidently I'm a slow poster, I thought this was coming right after your last post lol
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Piracy is okay because I'm poor and everybody I know buys pirated games.
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I agree with Ace's points.
Loads of people are affected in this not just this so called "%1"
You gotta know that pirating IS stealing. There's something with a price, you take it without permission from the creator, that's stealing.
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Wow so much resistance. Thought people on this forum would be a little bit smarter than the usual 
Did you guys even watch the movie? It explains some points you guys are debating so I wouldn't need to answer it all over again for the people comparing piracy to shoplifting.
Ace, I'm "a fucking idiot" for saying companies shouldn't sell their services? I said the exact opposite, read properly before you reply in that tone. Who is the "fucking idiot"? And yes the software (intellectual property) in WoW is free, you can download it in their webpage, you pay exclusively for services: cd-key (which isn't even necessary to charge for) + monthly fee. I'm not even arguing if it's right or wrong for them. My only point in citing WoW was to leave it clear that it exists a gaming business model where you are not charged for intellectual property. So you guys stop freaking out with "but omg all companies would break, there is no alternative!!!"
Get it through your thick skull: every company can not do that. In fact, even if they could who are they to listen to some dumbass on the internet telling them they make too much money for their own good. Pathetic. I'm not telling anyone to do anything. Piracy is a growing reality and we all have to deal with it. All I'm saying is "adapt or...don't" if they choose to not adapt it's them who are breaking, not me. There is this chinese proverb quoted on the Part 1 movie:
"When a windstorm comes, people divides in two groups: those who hide in shelter and those who build windmills"
I'm not telling anyone to build windmills. If you believe hiding in a shelter and calling me a "fucking idiot" is the only solution then it's up to you ^^
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do you even know what an IP is? you really are an idiot. WOW's IP is not free, if it was they'd be in deep shit from competition.
Do you even know what a business model is? Do you know how software is designed? You don't. This is why I'm calling you a fucking idiot. You come into the forums clamoring for us to adapt to piracy, when you have no fucking clue how these same things you're trying to steal are even created. Then you says we're not smart?
Did you even READ that other guy's posts about how WoW is "free"? You didn't. Just let your topic die because it's clear to anyone that knows anything on this subject that you just watched some random video and decided you became an expert on the subject. Get lost.
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On October 04 2008 07:19 VIB wrote:
"When a windstorm comes, people divides in two groups: those who hide in shelter and those who build windmills"
I'm not telling anyone to build windmills. If you believe hiding in a shelter and calling me a "fucking idiot" is the only solution then it's up to you ^^
Whats wrong with building windmills?
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I design software myself, I'm pretty sure I do. O.o Yes I read the other guy's post about WoW, it's is just... wrong.. which is why I didn't even bother. I bought the WoW CD myself when the game first launched, they were only selling the CDs with software before they had the infrastructure to sell the key directly from their own servers.
Calling me a "fucking idiot" when you have no idea who I am and completely miss the point and don't understand a single drop of what is being discussed doesn't make you look much different from that yourself O.o
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On October 04 2008 07:29 dinmsab wrote:Show nested quote +On October 04 2008 07:19 VIB wrote:
"When a windstorm comes, people divides in two groups: those who hide in shelter and those who build windmills"
I'm not telling anyone to build windmills. If you believe hiding in a shelter and calling me a "fucking idiot" is the only solution then it's up to you ^^ Whats wrong with building windmills? I'm sorry if you're joking, I can't really tell the difference at this point after the lack of sense in the last few posts 
If you are not joking: read again, I'm saying building windmill = adapting = good; hiding = refusing to adapt = bad.
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VIB you are so wrong in so many places - I'm not even gonna start. Please quit.
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EPT
