EPTI liked the old system better. :/
So here I am, craving for moar mafia!
/in
Newbie Mini Mafia XLVII
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infii
Germany153 Posts
I liked the old system better. :/ So here I am, craving for moar mafia! /in | ||
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On August 20 2013 23:24 Clarity_nl wrote: Yeah it's pretty much the standard nowadays. Majority and instant majority games still happen though, although I can't recall the last time a newbie game wasn't plurality. Consolidating is required much earlier in majority and it turns a lot more people into sheep, which I think are both bad things to learn in your first couple of games. Well newbie XLV was majority. | ||
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So if you will get in rehabilitation, mafia could be a life saver from boredom: :D Just out of curiousity how did the accident happen? Luckily I didn't have any accidents with my bike yet. Anyway, get well soon! edit: btw, last newbie mafia done already? who won? | ||
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On August 29 2013 00:02 LoneMeow wrote: [...] PS. What bike do you ride? Mine's a Suzuki GSX650F, though if the insurance company totals it I'll go for something more track oriented next... I ride a Suzuki SV650S from 2004. It's still my first bike and I'm still somewhat happy with it, I like the 2-cylinder engine. However I don't know anything about mechanics so I barely manage to do maintenance on it. Hope it doesn't backlash in the near future. :/ I once did a race-training on the Hockenheimring with it, sadly it doesn't have enough power to compete on the race track but still fun to drive on countryside roads. On August 29 2013 01:04 Alakaslam wrote: [...] I ride in cars. I have terrible balance... You don't need balance to drive a bike. It balances itself, at least when you're going faster than 20 kph. | ||
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Similiar to the last game I won't be able to devote as much time to this game as I would like to for rl reasons. I see we have some familiar faces from 2 games ago. I will try to discard my knowledge of your playstyles as much as I can to prevent a mis-judgement based on earlier behaviour. This game I'll try a different approach, and although I know no one is will straight out believe a simple claim, I still think that the claim pins itself either consciously or sub-consciously in your memory. So here goes: I'm town. I'm excited to see how this day will fold out, so happy discussing everyone! I'm heading to bed right away and will see you tomorrow. | ||
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heavenz: On September 04 2013 15:26 heavenz wrote: Umasi, is very aggressive, which is a townlike nature, but beeing aggressive on the first day with everyone just getting into isn't a big feat, so that reduces my town read of him at the moment, at least he called me out for my opening post, which was indeed worthless, and thought to be just a bit of a discussion starter before I went to bed (I didn't think the game would actually start yesterday). Considering the fact that the discussion about yes/no-lynch on D1 was already going on for about 1 hour at the time you posted this, why did you go ahead and claim it to be 'a bit of a discussion starter' with your second post? myrzeth: On August 24 2013 23:12 myRZeth wrote: /in Yup... we need to hear more from you merzeth. What is your opinion on lynching the most inactive player on Day1? Pharcyd: On September 04 2013 09:44 Pharcyd3 wrote: Heavenz post was extremely bizarre. I'm not sure what that post accomplishes but to make people distrust you His only post, though he stated before that he would have plenty of time to keep up with the thread. So why not also contribute to the discussion? Chairman Ray: On September 04 2013 08:16 Chairman Ray wrote: A lynch on day 1 incentivizes people to avoid being the scummiest looking player since that player WILL be lynched A possible no lynch on day 1 doesn't achieve this incentive since unless you completely crumble and blurt our something incriminating, then you don't get lynched So under the first case, as long as every genuine townsperson is being very active and contributing, then mafia is forced to do the same. Even if we lynch a town on the first day, we're still on a good start. If not every genuine townsperson is active or contributing, lynching them isn't a big loss. Took part in the early discussion about Day1 lynch with 2 posts saying the exact same thing. Also I disagree a bit with you here, because you don't have to actually execute the lynch to get people talking. A lynch threat is more than enough. Don’t you think lynching a less active townmember early on is a loss? Because they could still improve on Day 2 for example. Ok basically everyone listed above should step up and contribute to the discussion. You can start by answering my questions. On another note: On September 04 2013 14:23 Umasi wrote: ##UNVOTE HOLYFLARE Do you think what I did was bad play? you can go to bed and address this when you wake up/whenever you want, I'm going to do homework. tbth, this entire thing is pro-town since people will be able to talk about it, and it gives me more to go off of concerning you (and the people who comment about it), and possibly you more to go off of (regarding me and the people who comment), assuming you're town. If you're scum w.e. For everyone, just a psa about me I normally keep the person I think is the scummiest as my vote target, but since there are quite a few people I'm leery of, it rests on no one for now. Don’t you think the effect of a lynch threat will be reduced when you always have someone voted? If you want other players to know who you are targetting just write it in this thread for everyone to see. | ||
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On September 05 2013 00:14 LoneMeow wrote: Infii, since you're around, who do you think is most scummy so far and why? I see you read and analyzed filters but I don't see any conclusions from those. Still too early for conclusions. The only thing I find noteworthy until now is Umasi's kinda-agressiveness and twisting words in others mouths, seems a bit scummy. | ||
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Before I go to bed I just want to say that from my point of view Holyflare's posts are logical and considered. Honestly where is the problem for not posting insights and reads in the first 24h? Almost anything you read in this time period will be based on speculation and subjectiveness. I will look up who was pushing the 'holy y u no post reads?' case tomorrow because that seems like a scummy move to me. | ||
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I think I will be able to post a quick summary on my reads and my vote shortly before the day ends. For this approach I will analyse different cases instead of single people: Case 1 – First discussion about lynching Day 1 Coming soon/when I have the time Case 2 – Holyflare’s denial of posting reads early on The main post: On September 04 2013 12:28 Holyflare wrote: I'm not going to go into the revealing town reads in day 1 crap discussion again, what does it add? Nothing! Who cares who I THINK is town when everyone has posted like 1 post so far. Not only is there nothing to go on but revealing who I think is town just gives scum people to target if I die. As far as scum it's too early to tell really, yeh there's some scummy looking shit but until we hear more than 1 post from everyone there is nothing else to go on. Remember deus' first post in XLV, yeh, he was town. Admittedly, he cut the bs pretty quickly and went crazy aggressive but we've yet to see more from heavenz so it could all change. Any other 'reads' you all have at the moment are crazy speculation for now. Reactions from Umasi and my thoughts: + Show Spoiler + First reply: On September 04 2013 12:34 Umasi wrote: Alright holyflare. We've beaten the subject of no lynching to death, which ended in you backtracking You've told us that we shouldn't talk about town/scum reads day one You didn't reveal your scum or town reads. Why am I here again? What are we talking about? moreover didn't you have questions for me? Did you forget them/forget to ask them? Umasi is over reacting here imo. Ok you finished one discussion and you don’t think there are other topics which could be discussed apart from reads and thoughts? Instead you propose (indirectly) to speculate over subjective opinions for the next 40 hours? I don’t see that to be more productive or helpful for town. Holy’s defense: On September 04 2013 12:45 Holyflare wrote: Totally just responded to Bereft that's why it's 'backtracked' or if you're implying I've changed my stance, I haven't. I'd like you to see what I wrote, It's just telling people that no-lynching is an option and it should be used within this game. Also, I never said not to talk about scum reads, just how can you possibly formulate a case on somebody so quickly????? If you want to accuse someone of being scum why would you publicly announce it SO early with the offchance that they could 180 on their whole style of writing because you picked out their name. Why not keep it to yourself and formulate the case based on your initial suspicions and when it comes close to actually lynching someone you'd have substantial reasoning for a lynch rather than, 'oh his first post was scummy but then he became better'... As for questions towards you, I asked for you to elaborate first before I asked the questions but now you've mimicked other peoples responses because you were away so I don't need to ask the questions anymore. Next post: On September 04 2013 13:02 Umasi wrote: ended in you backtracking the fucking conversation, not you backtracking your stance on it. I guess I was unclear. let me phrase this differently and in a totally explicit manner Holyflare, why are you against discussion? You helped get it going in the beginning, but you sure aren't anymore. In fact, it could be said that you are against discussion from occuring. That is blatantly scum agenda. ##VOTE HOLYFLARE Umasi even increasing his aggression and going totally over board. Holy never been against discussion as we know he played a big part in the first one (see above). It looks like Umasi is desperately trying to find a reason to call Holy scummy and vote on him asap because if you read Holy’s root post and his defense it makes no sense to presume that Holy is against discussion. The discussion goes back and forth in the same manner as above until: On September 04 2013 14:23 Umasi wrote: ##UNVOTE HOLYFLARE Do you think what I did was bad play? you can go to bed and address this when you wake up/whenever you want, I'm going to do homework. tbth, this entire thing is pro-town since people will be able to talk about it, and it gives me more to go off of concerning you (and the people who comment about it), and possibly you more to go off of (regarding me and the people who comment), assuming you're town. If you're scum w.e. For everyone, just a psa about me I normally keep the person I think is the scummiest as my vote target, but since there are quite a few people I'm leery of, it rests on no one for now. Yes this discussion was pro town. But even though you try to phrase it in a positive way, this discussion sheds a scummy light on you Umasi because: - Your reasoning about it being pro town is weak - You could have explained your ‘vote behaviour’ beforehand to everyone. Now it just looks like an excuse - You didn’t apply your ‘vote behaviour’ in the last game we played together at all Reactions from Blurry and my thoughts: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 12:53 Blurry wrote: The reason you voice your suspicions is because it puts pressure on that person. When someone is under pressure they make mistakes and reveal things they shouldn't. Write about your hunches, it also allows us to see if you are innocent, and yes, when you are town you need to prove your innocence by providing good analysis and leading the discussion. First post addressing the topic in a considered manner. It is a valid point but applies more to after the first day than before, as holy mentioned shortly after. Later on: On September 04 2013 13:38 Blurry wrote: Two things: Scum read in retaliation to him questioning you is pretty suspicious. You aren't helping your case with that, especially because your analysis is flawed. Aggression at the start is in no way indicative of scum, and if anything, is more a town indicator than anything, especially when he is leading the charge against a player. It is really risky for scum to be so direct because it draws so much attention to them. Umasi is probably my biggest town read for that reason right now. He is right on that point. However I consider his aggression fake (see above why). In that case it would mean the exact opposite, which puts also the relation of Blurry and Umasi in question. Is he defending him? Or is he just voicing his opinion? Case 3 – The LV slipup Coming soon/ when I have the time Damn I’m running out of time here and won’t be able to finish it until I have to leave. So instead I’ll just post it unfinished and add the other cases on a later time when I can afford to write it. :/ I have the overall feeling that we are town led by scum because of the chaotic back and forth of discussions, random accusations and fake aggressiveness. Everyone needs to focus on the facts at hand and not let himself be guided by lurish arguments. | ||
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But I will vote for myrz. Yes he could be town but he is not cooperative or doesn't want to contribute anything. Though my strongest point on him is, that he is not even willing to change his behaviour. That is why he will be totally useless in the future. There are about 30mins left and I have not seen any analysis from him so fuck that. ##vote myRZeth | ||
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On September 06 2013 06:37 Blurry wrote: Don't vote for myRZeth. He has the opportunity to improve and nothing he is doing really screams scum as opposed to new player not understand how the game works. I don't get why you are so eager to get him out of the way when you feel like you have a big case against chairman ray? Is it really a big case? I don't think so. I would have to reread his filter and I think some of you should do this, too. But there is no time for that now. The information on him doesn't get lost and if he is really scum we can lynch him the next day. OTOH myrz will just continue to lurk... | ||
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The case brought up by holyflare against ray was pretty weak. But somehow people still swallowed that pill. I will not have enough time to fully analyze what went on, but here is my gut feeling: Holy tried to save myrzeth by leading town on another weak target. Of course we will find all of scum between the people that voted for ray because the vote was so close. Eventually all of scum hopped on to ray to secure a miss-lynch. As I said earlier I suspect this is a game where scum leads town. My reads on the scum team: Holyflare, Umasi, Myrzeth Read up the vote patterns, the accusations against ray and decide for yourself. But don't get fooled by the self-acclaimed 'leaders'! | ||
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First let's analyze the whole case which went against Chairman Ray. On September 06 2013 05:39 Holyflare wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 07:36 Chairman Ray wrote: Regardless of the math, a day 1 lynch as the norm gets people talking. No lynch = no incentive to give up information. Unless everyone is super cooperative and gives great information, we lynch. + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:16 Chairman Ray wrote: A lynch on day 1 incentivizes people to avoid being the scummiest looking player since that player WILL be lynched A possible no lynch on day 1 doesn't achieve this incentive since unless you completely crumble and blurt our something incriminating, then you don't get lynched So under the first case, as long as every genuine townsperson is being very active and contributing, then mafia is forced to do the same. Even if we lynch a town on the first day, we're still on a good start. If not every genuine townsperson is active or contributing, lynching them isn't a big loss. + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 03:32 Chairman Ray wrote: Since there's already been a few people suggesting they would rather no lynch than risk killing a quiet townie, then I'm gonna go ahead and say it: yes, there's a possibility of voting no lynch on first day. We threaten to lynch on the first day, and in the back of our minds we think about the option of no lynch. However the threat of a first day lynch no longer is a threat if people say it's just going to be a threat. By vocalizing that it's just a threat and we're actually allowing quiet people to live the first day, then the mafia will know that they have that option. So what we're all supposed to do is pretend that lynch is mandatory until the very end to make people think they need to talk, and then at the very end, we decide what's best. Now that this info is out there, I think we should actually do mandatory lynch. myRZeth has not said anything yet, and if that keeps up, then I will definitely be voting him. Who's in agreement? These 3 posts are all talking about no-lynching. This is fair enough seeing as the topic at the time was that, however, the third post was after the whole conversation had ended and infii had posted this post: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 23:36 infii wrote: I would also love to see more participation from the people with the lower post counts (of course including me), so I did dive a bit into the filters. heavenz: Considering the fact that the discussion about yes/no-lynch on D1 was already going on for about 1 hour at the time you posted this, why did you go ahead and claim it to be 'a bit of a discussion starter' with your second post? myrzeth: Yup... we need to hear more from you merzeth. What is your opinion on lynching the most inactive player on Day1? Pharcyd: His only post, though he stated before that he would have plenty of time to keep up with the thread. So why not also contribute to the discussion? Chairman Ray: Took part in the early discussion about Day1 lynch with 2 posts saying the exact same thing. Also I disagree a bit with you here, because you don't have to actually execute the lynch to get people talking. A lynch threat is more than enough. Don’t you think lynching a less active townmember early on is a loss? Because they could still improve on Day 2 for example. Ok basically everyone listed above should step up and contribute to the discussion. You can start by answering my questions. On another note: Don’t you think the effect of a lynch threat will be reduced when you always have someone voted? If you want other players to know who you are targetting just write it in this thread for everyone to see. Since I addressed everyone seperately where is the problem of directly answering to the section directly related to ray? There was not even anything to discuss for people not mentioned in my post because I inteded to squeeze some information out of the low-post players instead of analyzing. On September 06 2013 05:39 Holyflare wrote: To insinuate further confusion he posted this: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 04:03 Chairman Ray wrote: I am currently working on my scum reads right now, and will post them in a sec. As for Umasi/HolyFlare, one of the best scum tactics is to have two scum ragging on each other the first day. It monopolizes the discussion preventing productive town discourse, paints them both as very pro town, and in the case that one of them turns mafia, there's a strong argument for the other one being town. Because of this, I am not willing to read them both as town. Right now, there's a possibility of both being scum, both being town, or one being mafia, so lynching one will not give us ANY headway, I say keep them both alive on day 1. Based on who gets lynched and who gets killed by mafia, we may be able to eliminate one of the possibilities. What better way to confuse townies than put them against each other? Stating that one of them is mafia and one of them is town is planting the seed for later when people get confused and re-read these things. Not to mention his 'scum' reads that come later are just as lackluster (will post that bit further down). The conversation had already stopped between me and umasi and then it was brought up again with possibilities. He states that a mafia strategy can be to divert attention to their argument and stifle the town but that whoever gets killed or lynched will reveal the alignment of the other. That is not true either, nothing can be sought at from those posts as they were merely a heated discussion about policies etc. Thats exactly what he was saying. Nothing could be concluded from the heated discussion between holy and umasi. But it dictated the pace and direction in the early game. Which is indeed a valuable scum tactic. Holy's refutation of this argument does only work if we assume that both of them are scum... but ray said they could be both town or town/scum or both scum, so this argument looks to me like something blown out of proportion with the only intent to bolster the next points he will bring up. On September 06 2013 05:39 Holyflare wrote: This is where it gets the most scum like. READ THIS ABOVE ALL ELSE. Who was his previous post about? Me and Umasi. Who did he say not to lynch day 1 because it would be a mistake? Me and Umasi. Who is his scum read on? + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 06:07 Chairman Ray wrote: My intention was not to suggest ignoring the entire discussion. My intention was two things: firstly, to the few people suggesting that either you or Holy may be town (or both), I disagree completely and I would like to consider both of you just as much as everyone else. Secondly, your discussion with HolyFlare and everyone else set up a lot of variables and a few equations. This is the best thing to carry into the second round since we have almost enough information to deduce pairs of people who cannot both be mafia. This is why I'm suggesting lynching either you or holyflare first turn is unproductive for town. I will give my first set of reads. When HolyFlare said that he was withholding his reads, he dug himself an obligation. By the end of this day, he must make a play justifying that he withheld his reads with good reason, or else he's mafia. If we see his posts and decide that there's no reason why he didn't give his reads in the first place, I think he's a good mafia candidate. When you started attacking HolyFlare and threw in a vote, I don't think at that point there was any good indication that HolyFlare is mafia. I think that either both of you are mafia, in which case the discourse was counterproductive for town because you misled everyone, or you are town, in which case you were both pressuring HolyFlare and seeing who would ride the lynch train. This gives me a reason to ease up on the possibility that you are mafia and HolyFlare is town. Me and Umasi. lol? It isn't even a scum read or anything it just states the same thing as his last post. That we could be both town both mafia or one of each, that's just nothing of value. (One thing I'm sure everyone should be already aware of: Using caps to bolster your arguments does not shed a good light on you.) Again correct. This was not a scum read, holy and umasi were only possible scums from ray's perspective. So why then declare it as a read beforehand? On September 06 2013 05:39 Holyflare wrote: Not to mention the rest of his posts. + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 07:48 Chairman Ray wrote: Irrelevant post? Fixing keyboard? How do these two things even relate? Did anyone see the post before it was edited? I actually think we had a slipup. #vote Lord Velocity What was the post before you edited? He jumps right on top of velocity and hasn't unvoted him since. With no new information at all. That is why instead of voting out the lurker who may just be total crap to begin with I think this is a bigger scum tell for me so; ##Unvote ##Vote: Chairman Ray Since his vote was placed on LV so early (24h before lynch) this looks like a pressure vote which ray says himself later on. If you apply pressure on someone with a vote why would you unvote before getting new information? So like holy pointed out, there was not really much what ray said with his reads. And that makes even less sense to me why he is so certain about voting ray. What made him such a better lynch target than anyone else? There were much scummier plays then what ray did. I was astounded to read a post like this from holy. His previous posts had logic and were somewhat considered, I missed that here. But let's move on. Next one to jump on the train is LoneMeow. His votepost popped up 14 mins after holy's accusation. On September 06 2013 05:53 LoneMeow wrote: As to my top lynch candidate right now, I think I'd want to go for Chairman Ray: His early posts are reasonable, but he seems to be carefully avoiding taking sides and never really calls anyone scum (besides a 0-poster...) before jumping on Lord Velocity for that ridiculous edit mishap. I can easily see scum motivation for wanting not to implicate anyone until an easy target shows up to jump on. I could also consider Infii, but his "big post" does bring up some decent points that would have to be considered. ##Vote: Chairman Ray Interestingly Lonemeow did the exact same thing what he accused ray to be scummy with. Up until to this point he never took any side nor called anyone out as scum. This would be such bad scum play that it almost can't be true. Again it is hard to understand how of all the possible candidates one can choose ray to lynch. We had 48h of discussion and that went all over board for holy's accusation? After some time ray managed to dig himself even deeper into shit with this post: On September 06 2013 06:14 Chairman Ray wrote: I am confident that Lord Velocity is a good lynch target. Firstly, his slipup. This doesn't give any tells on his own, but the way he reacted to it, and other people reacted to it does. I see LV's slip as an easy mafia bandwagon target. One of my intentions of voting him was to potentially start a mafia bandwagon. If 3 other people jumped on him as well, there's a good chance we got our mafia right there. However only killerdog jumped on him. Since no other mafia backed him up, I am inclined to believe killerdog may be safe. And since there was absolutely no mafia bandwagon on Lord Velocity at all, there's a greater chance that he is the mafia. Basically what he is saying is: 'I did a scum play to catch more scum', which is understandable but naive. On September 06 2013 06:14 Chairman Ray wrote: My second piece of evidence is on how Lord Velocity reacted to it. This is killerdog's accusation of LV: When killer accused LV of hiding in qt, he had qt in lowercase. How did LV know to capitalize it? Also, the meaning of qt was clear as crystal just from the context of killerdog's accusation. Not only that, in this entire thread, qt has been mentioned many times. LV has been active. If he didn't know what qt is, why didn't he ask earlier? It was also defined earlier as well. But the strongest case comes from putting yourself in LV's shoes. If you are town, would you phrase it like that? If you are mafia, would you phrase it like that? LV's testimony of not knowing what QT is sounds exactly like someone who's deliberately feigning ignorance. From these piece of evidence, I would suggest that LV is in fact mafia. The whole QT thing is ray desperately reaching for straws in his case against LV. But that backfired on him and made the vote for the others even easier. Myrzeth voted 1min after this post but did only vote in the voting thread. (why?) The lack of content from Myrzeth makes it WIFOM to assign him any role, however in my eyes lurking hard is equal to scum play. 10mins after ray's post, 30mins before deadline Umasi hopped on as well: On September 06 2013 06:24 Umasi wrote: ##VOTE RAY ray scumslips don't exist, and you've done a lot of hunting for scumslips this game, with your qt talk at the beginning, then your accusing LV with quick topic crap.. I'm not buying it. He might have known it was an abbreviation, or he did what you did at the beginning and capitalized that. Why are you pressuring him hard on something as insignificant as THAT? sure, you 'could' be correct, and he's actually scum, and you caught a scum slip but..... not buying it. Had problems with this post a while ago, because it was like 'no guys they still could be scummy', which is correct, but not because of some kind of scum tactics, you just state every possible scenario which is totally pointless. velocity has both good and bad things in his filter, but I think you're scummier than him. Heavenz and infii aren't really off, they're still -.-.-.-.--egh, but you're pretty out there. Because ray basically shot himself in the foot, Umasi's argumentation is reasonable and I can't read a certain motivation out of it in this post. The last one to switch votes was killerdog. 9min after Umasi's vote: On September 06 2013 06:33 killerdog wrote: I really don't like letting myr live til day 2, but hopefully he'll start playing the game tomorrow. We wont lose from a second mislynch (if ray is town) so I guess it's not the end of the world if we have to kill myr off tomorrow for still being afk. ##vote chairman ray He states no reason for voting him but he already said earlier that ray would be a likely candidate for him to lynch. Also I assume he just agrees with Umasi's argumentation. But the fact that he voted on ray last although he had ray under suspicion for almost a day makes the whole thing fishy. Conclusion: I accuse Holyflare of starting a counter-wagon to pull votes off from LV or myrzeth. That's why I think Holy and one of the other two are scum. The reason I accused Umasi to be part of the scum team earlier was because of how I had his earlier posts in my memory. His vote is a null read. OTOH Lonemeow's vote was very scummy considering the point of time and his reasoning. But I don't know where I should place him yet. Next up: Analysis of everyone still alive. | ||
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I have been roleblocked last night. I guess that makes me a more likely target for the next nk. | ||
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On September 08 2013 03:07 Holyflare wrote: It's funny how you ignore the people that tried to put me off voting myrzeth and lv and just target me as if i started it You voting myrzeth beforehand will be a topic in my analysis because it is less of importance to the ray lynch. And you did start it or do you want to deny that? | ||
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On September 08 2013 03:24 Holyflare wrote: Not to mention ray calling myrzeth town and then trying to lynch him off at the end, i even saw you call ray scummy during the time but you kept your vote on myrzeth, probably because ray was town right? No, because myrzeth was my first priority. Ray is partially to blame for his lynch because of his late 'defense'. | ||
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On September 08 2013 03:58 Holyflare wrote: So heavenz you and ray were my top lynch targets before myRZeth even started talking and you vindicated yourself and so did heavenz somewhat, so who the fuck else was i supposed to go for if nobody wanted to lynch myrz?? Wut? At the time you switched to ray, myrz was in the lead of lynch votes. That is what I wanted to say with my lynch analysis. Since your accusation against ray looked so weak, why even switch to him, even though you had the majority of votes on myrz already? | ||
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On September 08 2013 06:22 Holyflare wrote: On September 08 2013 02:49 infii wrote: Since I addressed everyone seperately where is the problem of directly answering to the section directly related to ray? There was not even anything to discuss for people not mentioned in my post because I inteded to squeeze some information out of the low-post players instead of analyzing. When a person has only posted 4-5 times in the entire first day and then they come out with only a defence of themselves and nothing more. That is called suspicious, that is where my initial curiosity derived from. He didn't add anything till after that and even then it still wasn't actually adding anything. Thanks for clearing that up. Thats exactly what he was saying. Nothing could be concluded from the heated discussion between holy and umasi. But it dictated the pace and direction in the early game. Which is indeed a valuable scum tactic. Holy's refutation of this argument does only work if we assume that both of them are scum... but ray said they could be both town or town/scum or both scum, so this argument looks to me like something blown out of proportion with the only intent to bolster the next points he will bring up. Then why did he only mention it after the coversation was entirely over and we were already talking about other things? Besides, the conversation between me and Umasi was the only thing happening, nobody interjected (apart from killer when things were pretty much over) to stop us and nobody else was chiming in with things to do. It only lasted a few hours too which in respect to a 48 hour day is not very long. 1. Because Lonemeow asked about his opinion on the conversation. He didn't address your discussion until to this post. Maybe he never gave it a thought before he was asked? Who knows? 2. 48 hours sounds like a lot, while active conversations can only happen in a fracture of that, namely when several people are online at the same time. (One thing I'm sure everyone should be already aware of: Using caps to bolster your arguments does not shed a good light on you.) Again correct. This was not a scum read, holy and umasi were only possible scums from ray's perspective. So why then declare it as a read beforehand? Not sure what you're saying with this part? He declared it as a read and it wasn't and didn't help anything at all? Not to mention everytime I post things people tend to skip over the entire thing reading smaller points of it and when I use caps to highlight the most important part it stands out to people to read it, I do not care if you imply it is bolstering the conversation or not because it was not intended to. What I was trying to say is: first you write "Who is his scum read on?" Then quote ray and then: "Me and Umasi. lol? It isn't even a scum read or anything ...[etc.]" Since his vote was placed on LV so early (24h before lynch) this looks like a pressure vote which ray says himself later on. If you apply pressure on someone with a vote why would you unvote before getting new information? So like holy pointed out, there was not really much what ray said with his reads. And that makes even less sense to me why he is so certain about voting ray. What made him such a better lynch target than anyone else? There were much scummier plays then what ray did. I was astounded to read a post like this from holy. His previous posts had logic and were somewhat considered, I missed that here. I was never 'certain' about voting ray (how could I be?) but you even say further down that he wrote scummy shit when he actually started replying???? I made a case, he replied with replies that I did not like and found incredibly suspicious (oh LV wrote QT in caps??? Ray wrote QT in caps in his FIRST POST.....) This was crazy, made no sense, his vote was STILL on LV even after he said that nobody bandwagoned him so he didn't think he was scum anymore and then switched to the person he thought was town. If he wanted to survive he should have been posting useful shit about the game, yet he didn't. Yes he wrote scummy shit when he started replying, that still doesn't explain your switch because he obviously replied after you switched. Everything you described happened after your switch, basically you are arguing with information you could not have had at that point of time. You even called his defence scummy and then again in the previous page On September 08 2013 03:51 infii wrote: No, because myrzeth was my first priority. Ray is partially to blame for his lynch because of his late 'defense'. Yet somehow the counterwagon scum call falls to me right.... -.- totally... Yes it does. It is one thing to argue about scummy players but another to write a case against him and at the same time vote him. No one except you did this. If you actually read the thread which I'm not sure you have you'd see the countless amount of shit I got for voting myRZeth in the first place, oh and by the way I don't think you have a clue about what you said here. [/b]+ Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 08:51 Holyflare wrote: *sigh* Even if I have suspicions on Umasi, which I most definitely do, I think there are other more valuable lynch targets today that I'd rather focus on and i'm not sure you'd be convinced on a case against him seeing as most of you seem sold that he is town. Either way the people that I think are the most lynch worth today fall into 2 categories. People who I think will be less useful later on in the game because they aren't articulate enough and thus we should lynch them or by pure fact that I did not like what they are posting. infii I've played with infii and he was a bit weak to begin with when I did play with him, however, I found that I could read when he was being town by the targets he was focusing on with his posts and he did eventually get a lot better at analysis so I would have assumed better from him so far. + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 23:36 infii wrote: I would also love to see more participation from the people with the lower post counts (of course including me), so I did dive a bit into the filters. heavenz: Considering the fact that the discussion about yes/no-lynch on D1 was already going on for about 1 hour at the time you posted this, why did you go ahead and claim it to be 'a bit of a discussion starter' with your second post? myrzeth: Yup... we need to hear more from you merzeth. What is your opinion on lynching the most inactive player on Day1? Pharcyd: His only post, though he stated before that he would have plenty of time to keep up with the thread. So why not also contribute to the discussion? Chairman Ray: Took part in the early discussion about Day1 lynch with 2 posts saying the exact same thing. Also I disagree a bit with you here, because you don't have to actually execute the lynch to get people talking. A lynch threat is more than enough. Don’t you think lynching a less active townmember early on is a loss? Because they could still improve on Day 2 for example. Ok basically everyone listed above should step up and contribute to the discussion. You can start by answering my questions. On another note: Don’t you think the effect of a lynch threat will be reduced when you always have someone voted? If you want other players to know who you are targetting just write it in this thread for everyone to see. Infii's is one of the lowest posting people in the game at the moment with 3 total posts. This particular post that I have spoilered above is his only substantial thing that he has added in which it says paticularly nothing, stuff we already pretty much knew. Now realise this was after me and Umasi had our discussion and so there was a lot of information and reads flying about and things to mention, however, he only decides to mention split parts of peoples posts to ask them questions that really have little to follow up on. Compare this to his post in a previous game that was similarly early; + Show Spoiler + On August 01 2013 20:42 infii wrote: Ok, time to clarify things! I'll do this in chronologic order. That is not true. I said he should make a statement to get rid of all the suspicion he will get with that post. This is not an empty phrase! Btw sc_a.M still did't take a stance to his first post, which raised a lot of suspicion from me but surprisingly went under everyone elses radar. He even defended reps with his second post. So if reps is scum, sc_a.M is also scum. The only other option I see here is that sc_a.M has information/proof that reps is town. Then there were several posts which stated that I would be in favor of a no-lynch: I never said I'm for a no-lynch. I'm just against random or premature votes on people. Generally I want to look at a case from every possible angle before I judge, that may very well look neutral/scummy from the outside... until my first vote I guess. So please have a little bit more patience. 1. I think the general misunderstanding lies in the word neutral. - Neutral as in not participating on the discussion is bad. - Neutral as in shedding light on not-discussed topics on a strongly favored lynch candidate is good. Neutral for town is not a bad thing imo, of course they have to agree on a lynch at some point. But I see neutrality at the start of day1 as a positive thing because there is so few information and you want to stretch your feelers in every possible direction to gather as much information as possible. Thus, being biased on a certain person/clue/statement hinders the information flow. 2. Well I have a full-time job and whenever I get a piece of free time I spend most of it catching up on all the new posts. e.g. today I'll head to a rehearsal straight after work and will get home maybe at 9-10 pm CET. I'm at work right now and shouldn't even take so much time to write this post... but whatever it's pretty fun!  In all honesty: that sounds pretty reasonable, although it was an agressive move. I never said that I am going to lurk and wait. I will post as much as I possibly can and when I see it necessary. Reading his latest posts I may have misjudged him. No real opinion on him atm. Ok now on to the reps)squishy case: If you read through his posts he is either newbie town in a helpless situation with almost no way out or he is scum trying desperately to stay alive. In any cases his argumentation is repetitive and overall not very convincing, therefore I agree that even if he is town he would be of little use and should be lynched. OTOH he would still be more useful than StiMaDDict or sc_a.M. Stimaddict was active early on and got super silent now, which could be because he doesn't want to get more attention or just is busy in real life atm. sc_a.M literally made 2 posts until the second half of day1, which is poor at best. Those posts were contraproductive for town. That is why I will vote for him if he doesn't contribute/defend himself in the next hours. But if it is necessary I will switch votes to reps before day1 ends. Umasi: He is pressing hard on reps atm. The way he confronts reps seems scummy to me and if reps turns out to be town he will definately be a big candidate for scum next day. Alakaslam: He is also on reps. But unlike Umasi he went on a more supportive approach, trying to help reps to defend himself. While reps is clearly in a dead end, there is no need to increase the pressure any more. That is a strong town sign because we should support each other as town. As we can see the difference is pretty overwhelming, especially when the things he has mentioned have been brought up by people in the posts before him: He also posts as a reply to lonemeow here: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 00:54 infii wrote: Still too early for conclusions. The only thing I find noteworthy until now is Umasi's kinda-agressiveness and twisting words in others mouths, seems a bit scummy. Not only are these two posts suspicious but his initial post was: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:01 infii wrote: Welcome everyone, good to be back again! Similiar to the last game I won't be able to devote as much time to this game as I would like to for rl reasons. I see we have some familiar faces from 2 games ago. I will try to discard my knowledge of your playstyles as much as I can to prevent a mis-judgement based on earlier behaviour. This game I'll try a different approach, and although I know no one is will straight out believe a simple claim, I still think that the claim pins itself either consciously or sub-consciously in your memory. So here goes: I'm town. I'm excited to see how this day will fold out, so happy discussing everyone! I'm heading to bed right away and will see you tomorrow. He went out of his way to mention that he is town for no reason whatsoever. Obviously, you can take that to mean anything you want but in my point of view there is scummy intentions behind implanting things like that in the start of the game. It's obviously emphasised by his follow up posts that draw me to suspicions on his first post. heavenz + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 08:26 heavenz wrote: Good evening fellow top agents. Let us rest old and dry cases and let this be our only concerne as it already runs blood red. Lynching is the righteous answere on the evildoings of the terrorists, so we shall lynch. This was his first post and some people pointed it out as being scummy. I assume he is new (only 17 posts on the site, no previous mafia games here etc.) and so that is the reason for his post (This happened in a game 2 games ago and the guy was town.) So there is no information to read from this whatsoever. However after his flavour post was: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 15:26 heavenz wrote: Umasi, is very aggressive, which is a townlike nature, but beeing aggressive on the first day with everyone just getting into isn't a big feat, so that reduces my town read of him at the moment, at least he called me out for my opening post, which was indeed worthless, and thought to be just a bit of a discussion starter before I went to bed (I didn't think the game would actually start yesterday). However Pharcyd3 also jumped on me with 1 post, 1 line, calling me out and then leaving the thread. At least equally scummy to my opening post, even more so that he just followed Umasi. There need to come more indeed. Lord Velocity, I don't have to quote here much as every post says: he doesn't like to get attention and tries to behave neutral / hide Holyflare is just doing his thing, posting much, but the content is mostly contentless. As he said himself, he is holding back his informations. Blurry good townread opening posts, focussing on the discussion. Chairman Ray, suspicious, or just weird? What is this about... Killerdog, started out with a strong town post, but then just keept summing Umasi's and Holyf.'s conversation up. I want to have more than you just repeating and summing up the last 5 posts. most Scum: Lord Velocity, Pharcyd3, Chairman Ray, Holyflare (until he stops holding back, which I assume will be on day 1, then we'll see.) most Town: Blurry, Killerdog, Umasi This is non contributary. The only real merit was that he wrote a few lines on Umasi, however when you look closely it holds nothing of value seeing as a few posts before it was killerdogs same reasoning: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 13:30 killerdog wrote: This thread is growing much faster then i expected already lol, every time i think i've caught up, i refresh and theres another 10 posts waiting for me. Not much seems to have happened so far, other then the prolonged discussion about whether to lynch or not, but heres what I've got so far. First note, Umasi and holyflare seem to me to be the two players steering the conversation, they're the people who bring up new topics, or actively disagree with/try to change the public consensus on something. Also noted that they both mentioned having played with each other, infi and lonemeow, so they're definitely not first time players, and that's probably why they're being so much less timid then everyone else. Also infi didn't mention either of them or lonemeow in his one post, but this might just be because he seemed like he was just saying hi before he went to bed (from his one post, which didn't reference the current conversation at all). Several people have only made one or two posts, with very little content. Velocity, who several people seem to have jumped on already, as blurry said, Heavenz made one post, which didn't say anything at all. I'm going to overlook that as him just being on the way to bed/about to go somewhere, however it's a bad first impression and he'll have to prove his worth actively when he gets back. pharcyd3, who noone seems to have mentioned (at least before i started writing this essay :p) has only made a single post, and it was one sentence openly attacking heavenz. While having a useless first post can be excused as just dipping your toes in the water or something, he openly threw doubt on someone, said absolutely nothing else, then vanished. Just based off this he'd probably be my scum read. It feels like two philosophies are clashing between Umasi and Holyflare, both have been incredibly vocal and assertive in terms of controlling the discussion, and haven't been at all afraid to take a stand. A lot of the (non lynch/sleep) discourse seems to have been basically those responding to each other and other people just agreeing with one or the other. Personally I think given how there are many people who have said literally nothing of value so far, there hasn't been any reason for either Umasi or Holyflare to be this vocal/sure of themselves should they be scum, and because of how easy it could have been for them to calmly take the backseat and let people waste time, I wouldn't (currently) feel comfortable voting for either. If nothing else, I think a a vocal mafia is much better to keep until day 2 (and lynch him then) then a quiet townie who will stay quiet, because it gives a shitload of information. Although that doesn't mean I don't want Holyflare to clarify his position. He got a bit confrontational after (i think blurry) mentioned everyone just giving scum/town reads. My current read is Holyflare and Umasi are both town, but both seem to have (subconsciously or not) tried to take on the "leadership" role of the townies, and seem to be clashing. (note i've been writing this for a while now and more stuff might have been said since i started. Umasi has been the most consistent though, starting off by discouraging people making "i am new" posts to avoid mislynches, and has been consistent in starting conversations which would force mafia to say things which might later come back to haunt them. It's 6 am so I'm probably gonna go to sleep now, looking forward to seeing how the thread develops overnight, and hopefully my grammar/spelling will be better tomorrow and i wont ramble as much :p Pretty much blending in and then he says: + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 20:14 heavenz wrote: yes I am here, it bothers me that there are so many players inactive. On top of the inactive there are those I listed as suspicious (besides holyf.) who still need to answere. Infis from what I' ve read last game, and from what he said pre game hasn't have much time but will must likly come out with a huge post at one point. Not sure how I can judge that then. myrzeth hasn't said a single thing besides /in. I would like to hear more from you, LoneMeow, what do you think about the remaining players, aside of Umasi / Holyf. He puts me on his scum list but doesn't want to hear anything more from me, not even a question about what I've said or any queries that he didn't like. More blending in etc. His + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 21:31 heavenz wrote: He's active, his opinions are townlike, he studied Lord Velocity who behaved a little suspicious. He started a discussion to bring everyone to speak and voice their opinions. That's more town than the most right now. Yes it could be fake, but in my book his action are town. On September 04 2013 23:32 heavenz wrote: I know what you mean, it's my first game as well. You act overly defensive as soon as someone talks about you, that's suspecious because if you're town you have nothing to hide. Also it's not a shitty town when someone asks questions, it's the job. That you don't think about yourself as suspecious is nice, but it doesn't mean that the others think the same. You are also in no danger to be lynched as not a single person voted for you. So man up a bit! I agree with you too, we should hear more opinions. I don't really have questions to ask them rather than point out these obvious weak posts. I will be voting one of these two most probably in the next day. Lord Velocity and Chairman Ray were close on these lists, however velocity has been put under some pressure and has been working towards what I see as a more pro town active role. In fact ray should be another one on this list even but I'll post that a bit later, these are the candidates I'd rather focus on for now. I want a lot more contributions from them if they want to be cleared from here. I don't think we will be able to continue this discussion much longer. To your comment: I was never talking about you not mentioning ray early on, I was talking about your votes. When myRZeth came back here: + Show Spoiler + On September 05 2013 18:22 myRZeth wrote: Being quiet is usually the best choice, at least on the SC2 Mafia Arcade game. You re able to observe everything and judge on your own. Don t worry, i m active On September 06 2013 00:07 Holyflare wrote: Alternatively, you could follow the plethora of helpful guides because you will definitely be lynched today if you continue to do what you are doing. What is the point of doing your strategy if you end up dead after all. Useful Guides + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 00:09 Holyflare wrote: Yes you can. Like I said, this isn't SC2 mafia. If you have contributed nothing in the game so far and refuse to why should we keep you in? The whole point of the game is to identify yourself as town to other people within the town. How is this possible when you refuse to post ANYTHING? You could easily just as likely be mafia doing the same thing since there is no reason for a town to hold back so you become the most useless person to us in the game currently. It is also not early, there is not long left in the day phase. What happened next to put me off this guy? Blurry (was town): + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 01:01 Blurry wrote: While I agree that he (myrzeth) isn't worth keeping around it may just be a waste of a vote to lynch him today. I'm assuming that the mafia has a QT which they can use during the day? If that is the case, if he really was just a lurking mafia his buddies would have given him stuff to say in order to save him. I just don't think there is enough to go on piling on the easiest target because he is just a lurker, and it may very well be that a lot of the pressure on him is coming from mafia themselves. Be careful in voting for him because he is the easiest target for mafia to get a mislynch right now compared to anyone else. myRZeths line about not being a useful role: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 01:20 Holyflare wrote: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 01:10 killerdog wrote: The chances of us getting a for sure mafia lynch night 1 are quite low though, in a 12 man set up we're allowed 3-4 mislynches, and using one to get rid of a lurker is, in my opinion, worth it. I'm confused by your logic that "we shouldn't pressure him because he might say things which can save him." If he's mafia having him give some reads which are informative enough for us to want to lynch someone else instead is vastly preferable to lynching someone else but not getting those reads. Also by saying this, you've implied that you think him not giving any information at all even under threat of lynch is a town move, something i strongly disagree with. Besides, if you don't want lynch him, that means you think town would benefit more from lynching someone else then they would from lynching him. Who do you think is the better lynch? Maybe you can include it in your writeup. This makes me think he's just a useless vanilla townie. It's really really frustrating seeing how people can stick to their ideals like this. On the one hand I REALLY want to lynch him for being a lurker and pretty much useless but that post annoys me for thinking that. As for my pressure on infii and heavenz I think they have cleaned up their acts reasonably well and so my only other candidate that would be viable is ray. However, I am more than comfortable lynching lurkers over him. You thought myrzeth was VT, and paired with + Show Spoiler + On September 04 2013 12:08 Holyflare wrote: Nothing has changed, I will lynch the lurkiest player (unless obvious modkill) on the first night if I must. I was bringing up the situation of no lynches because this game had started with an even amount of players (normal mafia games are odd numbers of players) and so it is within our favour to at least no lynch once. Especially if our blue roles are favourable but even without. I've explained that in my previous post. That being said I'm not telling you my scum reads or especially my town reads at this moment in time. On September 05 2013 21:32 Holyflare wrote: Seriously, I am 100% going to vote you in the next few hours unless you post something with contribution... This is NOT the sc2 mafia game. On September 05 2013 23:19 Holyflare wrote: Also, I HATE FUCKING LURKERS............................................................................... Why do you have to play like this, it just wastes an entire day of work just so we can now lynch you, congratulations! Bereft: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 04:19 Bereft wrote: regarding myrzeth, I think his silence may have just been a totally rookie move / a lack of understanding of the game, so we shouldn't be so fast to lynch him. that being said, I have no desire to keep around someone making zero effort. myrzeth, I would like to see in the next 2 hours some (any!) indication that you are willing to rethink your stance and make an effort to contribute to discussion. I really don't want to have to lynch somebody who's evidently not grasping the core concept of forum mafia before they have a chance to learn and correct themselves, but if you don't post you leave me with little choice. Regarding the bolded text, myrzeth did not contribute in the next 2 hours. And if we take a closer look at the time those 2 hours were almost over when you switched votes to ray. But according to berefts quote he would've been willing to lynch myrzeth. So I don't see why this quote pressured you to switch. Umasi: + Show Spoiler + Is he scum? A question pending in my head all the time when thinking about the other mafia players. Did this really come out of nowhere for you? killerdog (ray was a viable candidate): + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 05:19 killerdog wrote: That post was a bit longer then i meant it to get, but basically I see our choice right now as being, 1. lynch myrzeth for shitty town play (and if we get lucky and hit a mafia, yay win) 2. lynch someone as a scum read, the a few people are pushing for LV in particular. I also think chairman ray has been a bit suspicious compared to other people, but I've seen a few people put him down as one of their town reads so thats moved him (temporarily) down on my scum list. 3. lynch someone else for shitty town play, but I don't see anyone else as anywhere near as potentially useless at myrzeth seems to be looking. Lonemeow: + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 05:33 LoneMeow wrote: I don't think myRZeth is a good lynch candidate unless we want to policy lynch for playing like a prick. Trying to read alignment from his "strategy" brings just WIFOM. Sadly, because I really do want to punish for playing like that. I'm also not sure I'd want to lynch Lord Velocity either, while he does seem somewhat scummy the fact that no one seems to be opposed to lynching him makes me wonder if he's just mislynch bait. (Yay, pre-flip associations... But I still do really feel that way, for now.) More in a bit, typing one handed is painfully slow... These were all BEFORE I posted a case on chairman ray and took my vote off of myRZeth, so when you imply that I was the one that started a ray counterwagon it just shows that you haven't read a damn thing. People were just confirming my suspicions about him so then I made a case, which makes sense to me and obviously to another townie or two on the wagon so it can't have been bad (which I don't think it was) Ray's replies were also god awful so it's a no brainer. The best point was made by Blurry on behalf of not voting myrzeth. All of the above quotes suggest not to vote for myrzeth, but none of them mentions voting ray except of killerdog (though he thinks of him to be "a bit suspicious"). Blurry even read ray as slightly town, see + Show Spoiler + On September 06 2013 04:17 Blurry wrote: My opinion is that Chairman Ray is slightly town because he did advance the discussion and brought up concerns about players nobody else had really said anything against. By saying he suspects Umasi who right now is probably the biggest leader in discussion he goes after the player who I would guess has the biggest sway. Scum don't go after the big leaders during the day because it draws attention to themselves when they could just get it done at night. Heavenz is also leaning town to me because hes trying to involve other players in the discussion as well. He also brought some pretty good analysis against me standing on neutral ground. He is right that I haven't really been taking any aggressive unpopular stances and I've been playing it safe. I think Myrzeth is a waste of a lynch because he isn't playing like scum, hes playing like someone who doesn't know how the game works. For now I think either lonemeow or Lord Velocity are the better lynch targets but maybe someone will make a slip up in the next few hours that will change my mind. I do however still think Vel is the scummier target so that is who will get my vote for the next few hours unless something changes. No doubt you had him under suspicion beforehand but the strongest impulse to voteswitch ray definitely came not from the quotes stated above. You also implied that I was throwing suspicion off of Lord Velocity? I didn't write much about him at all and I honestly didn't think he was scum but, again, if you read the thread you'd see there are like 5 other people throwing suspicion off him when I didn't at all. To imply that I am scum from your case shows a complete lack of reading, gz infii you've shot up on my radar. When you say throwing suspicion off someone, do you mean to reduce other players' suspicion on someone? If so, throwing off suspicion of LV doesn't necessarily imply you have to actively defend him. It's enough to direct the attention to someone else. Alright I don't think I will reply anymore to this case as I still need to write up my reads. Good night everyone! | ||
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infii
Germany153 Posts
On September 08 2013 09:13 Umasi wrote: so infii, who do you want to lynch today? same to holyflare because he's around same to everyone because we are lynching soon :| I'm still not sold on heavenz/lonemeow/infii, I think killerdog is pretty townie, holyflare.....idk :| (myrz is still a shitty lurker and should go die) basically since infii is present, I want him to stay, and I don't like how holyflare chose to respond to infiis case, even though he responded to it in a very consistent way. I'm still around for maybe 30mins. It's hard to pick only one since, like you said, myrz is still here. And his lurking didn't get better as so many have hoped. Logically we have to lynch myrz. Apart from that probably holy. As I was looking through the vote thread earlier, I noticed that killer was always hopping on holy's targets. But no idea what his reasonings were, apart from ray. | ||
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